| Author |
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Sportsman
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 11:36 pm: | 
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If we get to vote. V4, Buell is too different to bore us with an inline. |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 12:03 am: |
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"If following the rest of the flock leads to the pot at the end of the rainbow.."
"Dont be so short sighted that all you can envision is Buell building V-twins...forget the Blast for this topic."
C'mon Dyna be honest. Whatever you're smoking you didn't find it at the end of any rainbow and I didn't say a thing about only building V-twins.
Logic son! Try using some logic.
Greg |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 12:31 am: |
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No you havent said anything about building only V-twins...as a matter of afct you havent given any ideas at all. Simply deride anyone who has any suggestions of actually producing a viable modern powerplant. Where's the logic in that?? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 03:19 am: |
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Guys,
Let's forego the personal comments please.
Dyna,
As to my very personal preference... Firstly, I moved to Buell from a Yamaha. I was never a Harley guy, though I do admire their bikes for what they are. Hey, you are the Harley guy here, LOL. Me? Not. I prefer twin cylinder motorcycles that have BIG low end power. I hate the noise of an IL4, or even a high revving twin, it grates on me and stresses my mind with it's incessant whining. I even hated the noise of my old Yamaha XZ550RJ Vision and it was a V-twin; it ran at 6,500 rpm cruising cruising down the highway. I hated it. It was stressful and annoying. The Buell twin has the exact opposite effect. It is relaxing and almost musical with a low pitch and easy rhythm. I am just not about high pitched high revving engines, it's that simple. I don't care if Buell wants to build one, that's fine with me. Maybe a V-quad would be ok, depends on the torque curve though. I don't want to have to rev the thing to over 7 grand to get into the power. Not on a street bike that I want to be able to load up and take of for two weeks of camping and touring across the country.
When's the last time you rode an IL4 600cc sportbike? They ain't "all that" like some would have you believe. That have shit for power until you get to above 6,000 or 7,000 rpm then as the revs climb higher they start to buzz and vibrate. My cyclone is smoother at speed than any 600cc sport bike I've ever ridden. Admittedly, I've ridden Buells that weren't as smooth as mine.
The common crank pin design has its drawbacks, but it has its advantages too, no yawing or rolling imbalance, only pitching. You seem to have swallowed the hype that the Milwaukee pushrod twin is antiquated and inferior in its basic architecture. That contention has no real basis unless you assume that HP/CI is the ruler by which all engines must be judged. Well, I'll concede the weight issue too. So really there is only one reason why a smaller but more complex engine would be preferred, weight. Can you name any advantages of Buell's larger displacement lower revving V-Twin engines?... (simplicity, efficiency, narrowness)
I'm not so sure the XB version of the engine has addressed all prior dificiencies, but who knows, it may have. In my opinion the piston-ring to cylinder seal integrity was a significant issue in the 1200cc engine. There was excessive blow-by in some engines, and as a result of that, the breather circuit showed itself to be deficient. Buell made huge improvements to the breather circuit, but maybe they are treating the symptom rather than the root problem. Or maybe the aggressive forced air cooling will address the root problem. I don't know for sure, but I've seen enough evidence to make me think real hard about it and I'm hoping the XB engine proves itself worthy as a durable and dependable sport bike engine. So far it seems to be doing so, but we are just now approaching the critical time where we can begin judging the XB's real world reliability. I'd like to see high quality nicasil cylinders and forged pistons to match, maybe a gear driven primary or at least an automatic tensioner, and an overdrive six speed transmission too please.
Imagine if back in the early '70's HD had not entirely abandoned the sportbike market and had instead continued rigorous development of the Sportster as a true sport bike like Buell has done since the mid 1990's. We might now have 1200cc street Buells putting out 120 RWHP, still with an aircooled pushrod common crank pin V-twin engine.
Greg, Technology and optimum performance are not inherent or internal to any specific architecture of engine. The Japanese engine architecture has just as much heritage and acient archaic ancestry behind it as the Milwaukee twin. What the Japanese engines have that the Buell engines don't is an extra 25 or so odd years of development. Technology and advancement in performance is something that is gained through experience and technical evolution, through racing and competition... through wanting to improve and be better than before. Look at military hardware, there is no single huge change in fighter planes or bombers, the changes take place over time, they evolve little by little. We didn't go from Steerman to F22 overnight, nor did the B2 emerge directly from the B17. It took lots of learning and experience to arrive at the amazing technology and performance of the F22 and B2.
Now sit back and look rationally what Buell is doing with their engines... Exactly the same thing. Exactly the same thing that the Japanese did with their IL4 engines. Exactly the same thing Ducati did with their V-Twin engines. Exactly the same thing BMW has done with their boxer engines. Buell is just fighting a 15 year timespan where their engine was left to stagnate performance wise with no focus on continual ongoing performance development.
I firmly believe that with continued development, the Buell V-Twin will absolutely without a doubt become one of the premier sport bike engines in the world. I'm not talking race bike, I'm talking sport bike, like a Corvette is a sports car.
Once/if Buell proves the reliability of the new XB series, maybe they can focus on other improvements, like... more power; maybe they already are. BMW gets good reliable power from their air-cooled pushrod twins. Their cylinder heads and cylinders are sticking out in the air stream. The forced air ducted cooling of the XB's will benefit the Buell engines similarly. I'm telling you, stay tuned, there are bound to be good things happening with the old Milwaukee mill. And that's fine by me.
That's not to say I wouldn't love to see Buell enter the Superbike fray with a kick ass V-quad or whatever. I'm just sorry to see the premier racing organizations legislate the death of the V-twin superbike. That friggin SUCKS!! You knew I'd get back on topic sooner or later. 
Was that a good enough answer for you? |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 08:11 am: |
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Hey, you are the Harley guy here, LOL. Me? Not
Umm actually Im not a Harley freak. The wife is. She is the one who originally wanted the bike & thats why we got it. Personally I think its too damn heavy & slow..im a speed freak. I love the power of the v-rod but the motor does sound like shit & the bike is ugly...they can be made to look better but for that amount of $$$ I can buy a Triumph & a Japanese bike. We had the accident & I was all for letting the insurance company keep the bike & I was going to use the $$$ to get a Black FZ1 & a dirt bike. The wanted the damn Harley so I did what she wanted to keep her happy.
Im not into the full on race replica riding position, I think Ducs are miserable to ride, the Kawi 600's & 1200 does nothing for me. I do like the looks of the new Honda 600RR & Triumph has the Daytona 955I & the 600 Daytona. The speed triple is just too goofy assed looking & I really thought the ergonomics of it sucked.
When's the last time you rode an IL4 600cc sportbike?
Too be entirely truthfull its been about 10 years..oh I had a few demo rides in the last few years but the last ones I owned were a 91 Honda CBR600F2 & a 91 Katana 600. At the time the Honda was the top dog of the 600's & you know what? It absolutely sucked!! Oh sure it was fast, but it also blew a lot of engine heat on my legs..very miserable on hot days, the seat was thin, the bars were too low. I mainly beat it on the drag strip cause it had no power down low, 9000rpm is where the power came on like a damn light switch had been flipped & the bike wanted to loop every time I nailed the gas. Evenetually I did end up looping it during a mondo 2nd gear wheelie
The Katana was a different story tho, very comfortable, great gas mileage, no heat blowing on me. yea it was about a half second slower in the qtr but it was no big deal..still a hell of a lot faster than any cars I came up against.
You know my whole beef with the V-twin motors..complete & utter lack of reliability. Its hit or miss, some are great & last forever, than you have mine which wont stay together for more than 3 weeks without blowing something up. The tube frame 1200's have decent power & the handling is better than I am, & they are ez to get more power out of for very little $$$. The lil bolts 984 however to me is gutless. I really miss the down low torque. Never said the bike didnt have a decent little top end rush, but down low there is nothing.
Are the reliability issues with the Buell V-twins solved yet?? I dont know, still too early to tell. Obviously they appear to be better then the 1200's so far, but that wouldnt have taken much to be better. Dont really hear of too many motor issues with the new ones, lots of weird ass electrical gremlins tho.
A lot of feelings & attitudes go into buying a bike, & really when you are buying a sportbike which the Buell is, who wants to be buying the slowest sportbike made? Doesnt it make you feel good to know you are a small part of the team elves record? Wouldnt you love to have that same feeling watching the brand you cheer for win more than 1 race a year & actually be capable of taking it to the Japanese & beating them on a consistent basis? A modern world class V-4 motor would be the cats ass. I like the looks of the XB9S, if it had a world class motor in it I would seriously consider getting one. Obviously I wouldnt get such a machine from my local stealer, but I would give the business to Dave. Even with all the issues I ahev had with my bike, I would actually consider another one if they would step up to the plate the way Triumph has. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 08:24 am: |
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I'm actually tired of arguing. Same old arguments in perpetuity
This is now going out the window.
Was that a good enough answer for you?
No
As to my very personal preference
I like 2 wheels and an engine, ALL motorcycles are enjoyable in one fashion or another, i have no brand loyalty, and have owned just about every modern brand there is outside of Aprilla and Moto guzzi(that will change, within a couple of years)
Please consider this when reading my posts
as the revs climb higher they start to buzz and vibrate
This is true of several bike out there, be it 600, 750, 1000, 1200 and so on, it is not isolated to one size or type of bike, i had a FZX 700 that buzzed so hard above 6500 that the wife on the back would start to giggle, thats how i knew it was time to shift
So really there is only one reason why a smaller but more complex engine would be preferred, weight. Can you name any
And insurance, some carriers are based on cc's, ie my ZX7 was half the price of my Buell, and it was based on size of engine, there were some companies out there the would not insure a thunderbolt, they said it was exotic, weird
(this however does not pertain to racing but does applie in the real world
The Japanese engine architecture has just as much heritage and acient archaic ancestry behind it as the Milwaukee twin. What the Japanese engines have that the Buell engines don't is an extra 25 or so odd years of development.
I feel this a poor example, and actually misleading, Blake is using(i am guessing so i will let him answer this more appropriatley) that the Jap 25 year advantage is based on slow advances in tech, improving the engine for size HP, and the like, however you are not taking into consideration the fact that HD has had a simillar design for what 75 years, and done improvments on it on a semi regular interval, flat head, knuckle, shovel, evolution, dose this not count as improvments of the same basic engine, the difference in my eyes is that Japan imporves a whole lot more often than HD, who falt is that
You seem to have swallowed the hype that the Milwaukee pushrod twin is antiquated and inferior in its basic architecture.
I am not sure if the basics are antiquated or not, i do know that in some circles, air cooling is antiquated, by most measures, the latger clearences required to run air cooled can lead to some of the faults of the engine, including blow by and the like, the one i have experienced in reliability, water cooling keeps the temerture constant to a degree, alowing for more engine life, its one of the reasons we switch to water cooled lawn mowers,they just last longer, and run cooler(important when your sitting on the engine all day)
BMW gets good reliable power from their air-cooled pushrod twins.
Air and oil cooled, kinda like the older GSXR motors
I'm just sorry to see the premier racing organizations legislate the death of the V-twin superbike
Ducati still wins at WSBK, and there is a 1000 out there with an experienced rider on it, and i believe last years model just won
Logic son! Try using some logic.
Logic says dont race, there is no factory backing, Buell and Court have mentioned the the company is concentrating on STREET bikes, there is no class to race in, logic says dont race, funny thing is, now motorcycles are suppose to be logical, not unless you live somewhere its warm to semi warm all the time
These are all of course my opinions and mine only, unless you agree, then there yours to
Roger
Oh tea, wht cant Buell use the VR motor???
Weight, if thats your answer i would like to see a figure
size, get rid of the fake fins, and narrow the engine up a tad, it fit in the Vr1000, and the designs, are not that far apart, nor is the size
to much HP, dont like the 60 deg, v twin, whats the problem with this motor??? I still dont get why it can not be used
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 08:51 am: |
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Oh yea, why cant Buell use the VR motor
I really dont know where they would put the radiator. Maybe Erik could develop some weird handlebars that double as heat exchangers & then Buell could market some real nifty Oven mitts to ride with
Seriously tho...I wonder if the V-rod motor could be converted over into a quasi air & oil cooled motor..ala the GSXR & Katanas. I know on my 600 katana it was air & oil cooled & the oil cooler was pretty small. it could be wedged in some place on a Buell. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 03:02 pm: |
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posted on the Road Racing World website. (Mike Ciccotto won the 2002 Laguna Seca Pro Thunder race)
6/12/2003
Buell Rider Ciccotto Wants Buells In 2004 Formula Xtreme
Copyright 2003, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
FIRST PERSON/OPINION
Via e-mail:
To all race fans,
I am writing this letter in regards to the rule changes AMA Pro Racing has proposed for Formula Extreme. Being involved with professional road racing on a daily basis, I have spoken with a number of riders about the class. Many 250 riders and current Formula Extreme riders are not happy with the changes, but I think they are the nucleus of a good class.
We all have to adapt to changes, and the rule changes that have put 1000cc inline fours into superbike and now into Superstock reflect the fact that the four major Japanese manufacturers have changed their main focus from 750cc bikes to 1000cc.
The new Formula Extreme class combines modified 600 four-cylinder four strokes (the four Japanese manufactures) and 250 two strokes (add Aprilia), allowing these tuners and products to continue in a GP-like format. AMA Pro Racing has also included the Pro-Thunder spec 748 and 749 Ducatis, which gives these riders and teams a chance to come back to AMA events after a year of no longer having a class.
So, we now have a class for the four Japanese manufacturers, Aprilia, and Ducati. However, I would like to have the AMA make one further change. Please do not only allow the Pro-Thunder Ducatis, but also allow all Pro-Thunder spec bikes. This would permit Buell, BMW, and Moto Guzzi riders and teams to run in a multi-brand professional venue.
Historical data shows that these bikes can put on a reasonable showing against the Ducatis, but they would not dominate the class. It would give fans of these marquees (including Harley-Davidson fans, many which love Buell) a real motivation to attend AMA races and watch them on TV.
In short, there is nothing but a benefit to all to make this last step in creating an exciting multi-brand class. I would like to appeal to the AMA to make this rule change, and appeal to all riders who would like to see the ultimate formula class to also write to the AMA requesting this change.
Sincerely,
Mike Ciccotto
Sebastian, Florida .
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 03:49 pm: |
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I think we need a new topic. Roger, Ducati is winning in WSB because they are the only major factory running in the series. The only other factory effort is the Foggy/Petronas with Corser riding the steed. Those familiar with the series have for 2003 dubbed it "The Ducati Cup". That will change next year when Japan Inc returns with their filed of liter fours. And now WSB is also contemplating eliminating restrictions on the liter fours, like AMAPR has already done. It's a sad friggin day when we relegate control of the racing rules to the marketeers of Japan Inc.
See back on topic, kinda.
So now we know... Dyna doesn't really want his Harley, he just keeps it for the wife. Did she want the performance work too? 
Roger,
Who's has made more significant advances in power output of their engines in the last 8 years, Buell with their air-cooled V-twin or Japan Inc with their IL4s?
Buell went from a 1200cc engine putting out about 60 rwhp (50RWHP/L) to a 984cc engine putting out 75 rwhp, (76 RWHP/L) an increase of over 52%!!!
The Japan Inc 600cc went from what 80RWHP to 100 RWHP? That would be an increase of 25%, only half of what Buell was able to achieve in the same period. My point, and you have one too wrt HD not updating their design as often, is that instead of the diverging performance trend of the past we are now seeing a rapidly converging trend. Buell still has a ways to go, but they are doing it, no doubt about it.
Dyna,
Yeah, I think I said that I'd like to see a Buell superbike. But that doesn't mean I want the air cooled street bike to be sacrificed. Ducati sells lots of air cooled Monsters and Supersports. It's just a shame that they are not allowed to race in a class where they would be competitive.
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 05:39 pm: |
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Blake, the wife could care less about the performance work, but I felt that so long as we were keeping it may as well make the best of it & upgrade. Nothing serious right now, just the mikuni 42 carb, milled heads to bring the compression up a touch, screaming chicken adjustable ignition & an EV3 cam. This winter when I swap out the swingarm & fender for a 200 series tire I will pull the heads again & either go with a set of Nallins or Branch.
Hopefully have an FZ1 to go along side it by late summer also. Considered the new Kawi Z1000 but its just a tad bit too small & the Yamaha has some major balls. Definately wont be outgrowing the speed that thing can produce.
Now if Buell would slap a V-4 or even the V-rod motor in a slightly larger lightning that would be worth considering.
What classes in ama racing would a 1000cc V-4 buell be able to compete? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 08:30 pm: |
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Hi Blake, yet more dirt on amapr. RRW.com . Looking more and more silly as time goes on ! Formula U.S.A. is a little better! |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:02 pm: |
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What anonymous is talking about...
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6379
What do you say now José? I know, GO FUSA!!! Sounds like a lawsuit is in order to me. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:08 pm: |
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Guzzi agrees with Cicotto... AND decries the bias against twin cylinder motorcycles in all classes.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6373 |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:32 pm: |
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Dyna,
"Hopefully have an FZ1..."
This is a perfect example of why I asked The Question.
Yamaha makes the "race replica" R1 but you, being a practical man, choose the less powerful, slower, partially-faired and lower tech but more street oriented FZ1. Yamaha makes two excellent examples of the RR type bike you think Buell needs but you choose something else.
Does The Question make more sense now?
Greg
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:42 pm: |
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Hell YES!!! Jeff Nash appointed to board of AMAPR!!!
Read the editorial comments concatenated in the following...
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6374
Whoooohooo!
All this time I was under the impression that AMAPR was completely separate and independent from the AMA. Turns out it is not, and AMA is fed up with the bullshit of the AMAPR front office. The shit has finally hit the fan. I hope. I guarantee you one thing, Jeff Nash will be fighting for reinstatement of equitable rules for the two cylinder bikes and all Pro Thunder bikes. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:46 pm: |
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Dyna,
AMAPR currently allows 1000cc fours in Superbike and Superstock. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:47 pm: |
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Here's another one from Roadracing World...for all of you who doubted Erik and supported AMAPR. Man it's good to see the truth coming out...thanks to the honest journalism at RRW!!!
"(6/13/2003
Former AMA Race Promoter: It Isn't A Lack Of People, It's A Lack Of Integrity That's The Problem
Copyright 2003, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
FIRST PERSON/OPINION:
Via e-mail:
I read the post from Alan Wilson and his assessment of "perhaps the problem at AMA Pro Racing is not the people who are there versus those who are not." I would agree in a manner of speaking by saying perhaps the problem with AMA Pro Racing is the level of integrity and honesty that is there versus the level of integrity and honesty that is not there.
When we promoted the last AMA Pro Racing Superbike event at Willow Springs in September 2000, we found the operational people that came to the facility to be very competent, straightforward, and flexible. We had 90 of our own personnel at the site for 5 days and never had a problem between our people and their staff. In fact, it was pretty clear that they knew how to put on a race. For the most part, they handled the on-track stuff efficiently (at our event, at least) and we did the rest pretty well, too. Later, (AMA Pro Racing CEO) Scott Hollingsworth commended our efforts and the result--although he never came to it--and said that "if there were a promoter-of-the-year award, you would get it."
The problem with AMA Pro Racing is that, as a whole, they are liars. Furthermore, they also do not know the first thing about the practical business realities of a promoter for an AMA Pro Racing event. There may be some in the upper levels of the organization that know business theory, but it is only enough to be dangerous. None of them that I spoke with had ever run their own business and it was clear that they didn't know what it meant to spend their own money on the magnitude necessary to bankroll such an event.
I could give you numerous examples of organizational incompetence that was manifested before and after the event. For instance, on one occasion I was told to call other promoters of Superbike events if I had any questions about how to promote the event because AMA Pro Racing was too busy to provide any assistance. Keep in mind that this was the first event of this kind that we had promoted and so we assumed they would want some direct oversight. Over a 6-month period leading up to the race they initiated contact with me on only two occasions. It was like: "Do you have the money to pay the sanction agreement? Yes? Okay, you get to do the race and we'll see you in September."
On another occasion during a conference call between Scott Hollingsworth, Dan Mole, and myself, Scott went off on a paranoid rant about how Formula USA was a plan by the promoters of Supercross to pressure AMA Pro Racing into renewing the Supercross contract that was expiring within a year or two. He describe (it seemed to us) this fantastic conspiracy that included claiming AMA's influence on Dan Murphy and Speed Channel resulted in Formula USA being denied television coverage. It was one of those eyebrow-raising moments and Dan and I just looked stunned. He would continue this theme later by insisting that we demand that Willow Springs cancel a Formula USA event and instead give us the same date to promote the 2001 AMA Superbike event at Willow.
However, the most despicable behavior was manifested during the negotiations for the 2001 event. We wanted a 5-year deal that would allow us to promote up to 4 events each year for AMA Pro Racing. We would continue to do the Willow event even though it was a loss-leader (we lost $134,000 in 2000) if we could have the Portland venue, the Barber venue, and an event to be named later. I even included a shared-revenue deal where AMA Pro Racing would get a fixed sanction fee plus a percentage of the gate.
I was assured by Ron Barrick that it was an idea management liked but that it needed to be approved by the board when they met at Daytona. In the meantime, they wanted us to sign the contract for the 2001 Willow event, but I refused. I wanted my deal! I was contacted just before Daytona and asked if I would accept a 3-year deal. I said yes and he then said to sign the Willow contract because the other deal was as good as done. I said no.
Daytona came and went and no contact for 2 weeks until I was called and told that I needed to sign the contract because they needed to wrap up the TV schedule. I asked about the board meeting and was told that they liked the proposal. So we have a deal? Can I get my attorney in contact with your attorney? Well, no, I was told, there were some issues to work out. After a few more days (weeks?) I gave them an ultimatum via e-mail and voicemail to show some good faith and sign a letter of intent or we were not going to do Willow in 2001. I got absolutely no response.
I called Ron two days later to confirm that he got my message but could only leave a voicemail. It was several days later that I found out from your website that the 2001 event had been given directly to Willow Springs! I never did get a call from Ron or anyone.
It was a short time later that AMA's intention to hold the races at Fontana was announced. It was at that time that I realized they never had any intention of granting us the sanction agreements for the four events and that I was just being strung along so that we would commit to the 2001 event. As you may recall, this race was ultimately canceled as a result of 9/11. I was later told by someone who claimed to be in attendance at the board meeting that our proposal was never on the agenda and was never discussed.
The unfortunate part is that we had heard of AMA Pro Racing's duplicity and choose to ignore the reports and take them at face-value based on our own experiences with them. We thought by performing at a superior level we would be rewarded with a long-term partnership. We were so naive. Oh, well.
Moral of the story: Don't trust AMA Pro Racing.
Keep up the good work! Without you, how would I have known that AMA Pro Racing had fired us!
Steve Rethmeier
Hansyllan Motorsports
Anaheim, California" |
Benm2
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 07:57 am: |
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Looks like you're right. My past faith in simple incompetence & misunderstanding is gone, it seems clear that money buys favors at AMAPR. 
But, I still think Buell needs a new engine.  |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 03:06 pm: |
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Me too. But I like the current one too. It will be interesting to read the AMAPR rebuttal. I'm sure there'll be one, probably similar in vein to the one issued refuting Mr. Buell's statements, in other words... more lies. I'll try to talk to Jeff Nash next week to see what he thinks can be done. |
S320002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 03:53 pm: |
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I'd like to see more performance too. I just don't think playing follow-the-leader is the way to get it. Its not Erik's style nor is it mine.
Greg |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 07:07 pm: |
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Grndskpr,
Face it, the V-Rod motor can't be used as a competitive sport bike motor or it would have been. The motor weighs 205 pounds, whereas the Honda/Ducati/Aprilia V-twins weigh around 145 lbs. This is before adding radiator and water. The XB motor is 175 pounds, and doesn't require radiators and water.
In addition, the V-Rod motor is HUGE, even if you take off the vestigial fins. HUGE makes for a great motor in a 550 lb. 66" wheelbase chassis, but doesn't work in the sportbike world of 400 lb, sub-56" wheelbase
Bottom line...why build an inferior water-cooled motorcycle when you can build the world's best air-cooled? BTW, the XB IS air/oil cooled, and fan ducted, so it is more advanced than the BMW or GSXR you mentioned.
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Jscott
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:10 pm: |
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FUSA Loudon qualifying results - Buell's are a little off pace, but we all remember what happened last year.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6391 |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:01 am: |
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José,
quote:Apparently Anthony Gobert does not feel that unfortunate.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6381
Don't know why yet, but he just split with Ducati Austin. 
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Grndskpr
| | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 07:17 pm: |
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Hey Blake, do you remember at the begining of this argument, i mentioned the AMA, the new people in power, the need to be patient, and allow them to make the changes how the needed to, how we need to give them time, ahh some times its hard to alow people to do what they need to do, but thats what elections are for, as is let the elected officals know what or how we feel, how many letter to ulrich have you writen???? Remeber if your not part of the solution your part of the problem(i love that quote and it applies so often)
on to the good stuff:
Anon brings up some good stuff:
Face it, the V-Rod motor can't be used as a competitive sport bike motor or it would have been.
I disagree of course, there are some that say it was not used to to a lack of desire, but that quote is to another anon so who is to know
The motor weighs 205 pounds, whereas the Honda/Ducati/Aprilia V-twins weigh around 145 lbs. This is before adding radiator and water. The XB motor is 175 pounds, and doesn't require radiators and water.
Very good point, the counter point being that i would give up the 50 lbs for 50hp, the way i view it is you would gain 50 lbs, but you would gain a stock 100 RWHP bike, without a race kit, with out any work, and i have seen 150 hp vrods with tweeks(i again can not share who it is, or who it belongs to, he is another anon), so you could step up, with 1000cc and be a world class bike from the get go, as far as the air cooled motor, another good point, but at this time a lot of folks feel its down on power, and i am not sure if it will ever be a factory 100 hp bike, but time will tell
In addition, the V-Rod motor is HUGE, even if you take off the vestigial fins. HUGE makes for a great motor in a 550 lb. 66" wheelbase chassis, but doesn't work in the sportbike world of 400 lb, sub-56" wheelbase
Why not, if i recall corectlly, the older 900RR, ZX9, and a few other bikes had short wheel bases, but the are/were very wide, why does the width of a motor not alow it to be put in a shorter wheel base bike, its size i would guess is due in part to being a 60 deg V twin, but why is it to wide to fit in a larger/ wider sport bike?? Hasanyone even considered it??? and what happens if someone does it???Again i think its time to think outside the aircooled motor, but thats me
Bottom line...why build an inferior water-cooled motorcycle when you can build the world's best air-cooled? BTW, the XB IS air/oil cooled, and fan ducted, so it is more advanced than the BMW or GSXR you mentioned.
Asi am sure you are aware, the GSXR has not been air cooled for some time, hence it is not more advanced, if you think of it in terms of comparing a 2003 motor to a 1996 motor, thats just troll bait, asfar as BMW is concerned, i would have to look it up, but i am sure your correct, but when Buell opens its special Brag club for 200,000 and 300,000 mile members, we can talk about advancments, that may come, but i really dont see air cooled as being as advanced as some motors out there, but i am beginig to see some advantages, again time will tell
Later boys, i am off to the Gap this week, enjoy the week, i may post some more i may not depends how muc hof a weeks worth of work i can get done in 2 days
ROger |
Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 07:40 pm: |
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quote: when Buell opens its special Brag club for 200,000 and 300,000 mile members
I don't think you'll ever see that happen. Buell would have to build a sport tourer to have enough people to make such a sub club feasible. The S2/3-T is dead. Upper management at Harley-Davidson still sees Buell as an entry level bike for potential Hog owners. They believe that eventually a Buell owner who wants to travel will step up to a Garbage Wagon. It's really a shame. With the reliability of the XBs, they'd make a great basic platform for a reliable mile eater. I just hope that when the XB12 comes out, Buell takes a lesson from BMW and at least offers decent saddlebags as an accessory, so people who like bags can put some on. I really want an American alternative to those Teutonic Turds. |
Turnagain
| | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 09:21 pm: |
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quote:Upper management at Harley-Davidson still sees Buell as an entry level bike for potential Hog owners.
True or not, they're not getting the word out that Buell exists. PBS, Discovery and Travel Channel seemed to have done more to get Buell out before the public.
Case in point: I'm out riding Saturday and stop for a sandwich. Out front are two guys and their bikes -- an R6 and some brand X 750 cruiser. The 750 rider compliments my bike as I walk up and asks 'what is it? Buell? What's that?' Turns out R6 is teaching 750 as the 750 is a week-and-a-half old and his first bike.
maybe this could help
Steve(2) |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:43 am: |
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Actually, that's kinda cool. The HD logo being near the Pegasus' heart as the original Buells' HD engines were at the heart of the bikes.
Whatever people think, you are one hell of a graphics artist. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:46 am: |
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Roger,
Stay tuned. And you really should get over the anony animosity. Anony knows what he/she is talking about. I gaurantee it.
Have fun at the Gap. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 08:15 am: |
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Looks like i have some time after all
And you really should get over the anony animosity.
Dont have any, as i have stated in the past, i have gotten very usfull info from several anons, dont read to much into the post, if you dont question whats going on, you will never get answers, and as far as my reference to the other anons, they also exist, but i have no idea if they would like there name mentioned, so i will leave them to them selves
And the graphic, well its just outstanding, and would make a great new logo, one for the next 20 years, maybe it should be passed on to HD/Buell corporate, i really like what it stands for, nice job |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:51 pm: |
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Gotcha. Just one note... If they are posting anonymously, I think that pretty much tells us that they do NOT want their name mentioned. |
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