| Author | Message | ||
     Jim_m |
Darthane, I would expect the s/o to negate some of the dip...granted some engines just have a dip in a certain range (IIRC, Dale Walker has said that the GSX mills just have a dip in the 4000-45000 range that could not be dialed ot completely). btw, I had the pleasure of hearing Keith's D&D. It sounds awesome. | ||
| Skully |
Aaron- My XB (the one whose chart was posted by Blake on Tuesday) is stock other than the D&D muffler, race ECM, and K&N filter. No Power Commander. Yes, I have the air/fuel plots. Matter of fact, I have the dyno data files from all of the runs. I can email them to you if you wish. 03xb9r- I have a audio/video clip that I can email you. It sounds pretty wicked. Blake plans to compress it a bit and then post it but he has been feeling a bit under the weather the last few days. Keith | ||
| Jim_m |
Keith, I'll see if I can do anything with it at work tomorow...does anyone know the max for a clip here (audio or video)? | ||
| 03xb9r |
if you can email me that clip, that would be great. | ||
| Blake |
Aaron, Are you seriously saying that the difference between the blue and red dyno runs is not dramatic??? The torque curve jumped 3 FT*LBs across almost the entire range! I agree, it could be A/F effects. But 5% is huge compared to anything I've seen on dyno runs I've made on my bike with/without airbox. Especially considering the intake was already a race intake, obstructions removed, K&N filter and all. Also, normally doesn't an open airbox most benefit the top end. These results are showing improvement across the entire rev range. Are y'all doing anything with the airbox lid in your worked over, hopped up XB9's and XB12's? DynoJet's free Runviewer program won't properly display the A/F Ratio results. Here's a plot of the A/f Ratio that goes with Keith's final run (.010) which is identical to the 090 run shown in red above... I don't have one for the 070 run, the one with the lid still on.  A/F Ratio Results for Dyno Run KEITH.010 shown above | ||
| Blake |
Darthane, Anything below 3K rpm on an XB9 is too slow. The dip is at the bottom end and the Force pipe does seem to cure it. Midrange is more between 4K and 6K rpm, and from what I've seen that is where the Force pipe suffers a slight degradation where the above pipe seems to come on very strong. The A/F data shows it running over rich at low and high end. Would be interesting to see what a power commander would do to improve things. If only we had our own dyno like SOME people we know. We will figure this out though, guaranteed. Aaron knows what the heck he is talking about. The race intake may not work well with the D&D. D&D claims their pipe works well with the stock ECM, maybe that would even help? Who knows. Seems improbable, but it could boost top end if the A/F were leaner. The first I heard about the dramatic airbox effect was from Josh at Latus. He was surprised to see the huge cost in power the airbox exacted upon their race bike. He cut holes into the lid to solve the problem. Keith may even remove the lid entirely and fashion a home made CF ham canish type of cover to fasten/seal the filter. Stay tuned. Sound clip is in work... | ||
| Roc |
When I started this thread I just wanted to know what my options were for an aftermarket muffler. I have 2 Buells that are really on the verge, if not over, of being too complex for me. Now there is an airbox modification and a muffler in the equation. Damn it. Oh, and the bike is fuel injected. So maybe a "seat of the pants" gain will yield a lean condition that will be a problem with engine longevity. Damn it. And, I don't have a good dealer close to me who will even answer basic questions on XB performance exhausts. Latus is across town from me and I can't get a straight answer from them, even on things that I can visually verify on their display model, about their muffler. In addition to that I have a new job that: does not pay well, robs me of a lot of free time and is not motorcycle related. Well at least I have a job; I live in Oregon you know - 8% unemployment. So, I guess what I am saying is that I want the most bang for the buck, power improvement wise. I want absolutely no problems, rust/breaking brackets/blowing exhaust on my rear wheel, or tuning issues - plug and play. I also want an acceptable volume level and a nice deep sound, maybe V&H level but not Force volume level – based on my experience with tube frame exhausts. Aaron – If you build it, I will buy. Kind of field of dreams, maybe? This is all very interesting. | ||
| Darthane |
Blake, I definitely agree tht anything under 3K on a 'bolt is too low. The only time I'm that low in the Rs is when I'm cruising along a surface street. As far as my reference to 'mid-range', I was looking at it from the perspective that a bike at idle runs at 1000, and redlines at 7500, so the 2000rpms from 3250 to 5250 was what I would consider 'mid-range' when, in fact, from street perspective, you are right, since you would NEVER go below 2000RPMs and, if you like your bike, 3000. The dyno sheets tht I've had for my bike show a dip starting at about 3100 nd continuing down until perhaps 4300, then a monster leap up from bout 52ft/lbs to 66ft/lbs at 5100RPMs. My bike has the hiccups below 3K like many other XB9Rs, and multiple ECM flashings to reset the TPS zero reading have not cured the problem. I will be trying it again before going on the NE tour. Bryan | ||
| Skully |
Roc- I too had many questions regarding mufflers and pipes. I too wanted something simple with no fiddling. The Force XB pipe will make the most power hands down. The Latus makes good low and good top end power, but not much improvement in mid range (4-6,000 RPM). The Buell race muffler is not bad, it has a dip in the midrange and is too quiet for me. The D&D boasted the best midrange - right where I ride. I plan to make my air box mods this weekend and I'll post a picture in my "From Cruiser to Sport Bike - An XB9S Rider's Log by Keith Thrash..." in the "Tale Section" of BadWeb. Please understand that until I dyno test the modification, it will be unproven. Keith | ||
| Aaron |
Blake, I said it wasn't dramatically more than the usual air cleaner/no air cleaner difference. A hp or two more than I usually see. And that's what I generally see, gradually diverging hp charts over the rpm range, unless the air cleaner has some intake length altering properties. With respect to the race air cleaner already having a K&N, I have yet to swap a clean paper element for a K&N in the same airbox and have it show up on the dyno. Not that it can't or doesn't happen, but the dozen or so times I've done it, the charts overlaid. IMO people expect too much from those things. Surface area, though, is another issue. If one of you guys can send me the DYNORUN files, I'd be happy to generate charts with a/f. | ||
| Skully |
Aaron and 03xb9r - Check your inboxes! Keith  | ||
| Blake |
One thing I just realized... the stock run is a 4th gear run while the others in the plot above are 5th gear runs. Runs 006 and 008, though intermittently recorded show that a 4th gear run makes between 1 to 2 RWHP (peak) less than a 5th gear run. The tech had labeled 007 and 009 as 4th gear runs, but the speed results (130 mph) indicate otherwise. (Message edited by blake on May 21, 2003, %time) | ||
| Darthane |
I ran my bike around for two days with just the Race ECM and K&N in it. Ran fine, no real noticable power loss. Huge sound difference. I had the Race Muffler off to get it ceramic coated jet black...one of these days I'll post pictures of it. I also had someone whack the curled ends of my exhaust tips off. Now instead of a gray fetal pig I have a Black Asian Pot Bellied Pig Fetus! Bryan | ||
| Blake |
Roc, I think either the D&D or Latus depending on whether you want your performance gains more in the midrange or at the top and bottom. Or if you would like a not so loud solution the factory race can is hard to beat. Just paint it black before mounting it. Aaron, Cool, thanks a bunch. Unfortunately the tech did not take A/F Ratio on the stock runs back in February. If you have what you think is a representative A/F run for a comparable stock XB9 please include it as a reference too. Keith sent you all the runs. The plot shown here (see below)shows runs 001, 007, and 009. Run 004 is also interesting as it shows the effect of only installing the Race Intake and Race ECM (stock muffler).  Stock vs Race ECM/Race Intake/D&D Muffler vs Race ECM/Open Intake/D&D Muffler A/F Ratio Results for Dyno Run KEITH.009 shown above There is someone at Buell who already knows ALL of this and if watching is surely finding much amusement in our haphazard search for cheap performance enhancement. | ||
| Aaron |
   I don't think it's valid to compare 1 or 4 to 7 or 9, as they were done in a different gear. | ||
| Blake |
Why isn't it valid, as long as you factor the effects of the different gearing, roughly 2%-3%, and don't lie about it? Looks like you are right about the A/F Ratio. Good call. Curious, what do the results look like with STD correction factor? | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
I drilled some more holes in my stock airbox and then took the bike for a testride. When the bike was stock and the torque curve was right on tap when I shifted into second gear, the front end would come up pretty good. After I installed the race ecm , filter, and latus, the bike would only pull the front end up about 6-10 inches.(this is because the torque curve moved up higher in the powerband) Now that I have all of the holes in my airbox and the open airbox cover the bike feels stronger the higher you rev it. Now when I bang second gear, I have to let off of the gas or I will probably go over. For the bike to do this in 94 degree weather with almost 90% humidity, I think the mods to the airbox helped. I know that some of you will not believe the improvement until the bike is either dynod or brought to the track , but I really think there is some pretty good gains in doing this!! | ||
| Noface |
Hey Joey, Got a digital camera to post a pic or two? Jody | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Sorry Jody, I am working on that as we speak. If I could just quit spending all of my money on my other hobbies ,I could go out and buy a digital camera. I am still waiting on a friend to bring his camera by. | ||
| Skully |
Guys and Gals, Here are air box mod pictures that I will be posting in "From Cruiser to Sport Bike - An XB9S Rider's Log by Keith Thrash..." in the next day or two. My first thought was to grab a hole saw and just start cutting holes. However, this may not be the best approach since the air box has the structural duty of applying enough pressure to the air cleaner to prove an air tight seal. So I looked at where the air box fasteners were located and tried to make sure I did not destroy any load paths with holes. The results sketched out to look something like this:  It seemed to me a coping saw would be a good way to cut these holes in the air box. When I turned the cover over, I found there were stiffening ribs molded in and by cutting these I could seriously weaken the structural integrity. So I grabbed my trusty drill motor hidden deep within the secret BadWeb workshop and a 3/8” bit and began drilling, trying to stay inside the cut-outs I had sketched. Now the box looks like Swiss cheese:  Obviously, to quantify the results I’ll have to make one more trip back to the dynamometer. But until then… Hope this helps. Your Chief Road Test Editor Keith | ||
| Jim_m |
If nothing else, it looks cool, Keith  | ||
| Spiderman |
Hey I need to drain My Macaroni bring that bad boy over  Is the cover still stiff like that?? Any flex at all? | ||
| Darthane |
Damn! LOL...I am going to put more holes in the airbox on my 9R (I have 6 1"ers in there now) but...DAMN. Bryan | ||
| 03xb9r |
isnt that kinda useless unless you cut holes in the outer cover too? | ||
| Darthane |
It is past a certain point. I'm sure that Skulley's airbox there is now capable of passing far more air than can be let in through the gap that rings the outer cover. I for one am unwilling to carve up my outer cover (at the moment). I'm looking for a used one on EBay to experiment with, though. With all this intake stuff in the exhaust thread, I have to ask - has anyone done anything to their velocity stacks on a XB? It seem to me that it would flow better if you cut the funnel down a bit, since it comes within 1" of the top of the filter, meaning all that air that passes through the bottom part of the filter has to flow up and around the lip. Would this help or hurt? Any thoughts? Bryan | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...try this one on for size. I've got maybe a dozen 3/8" holes and 6 1" holes in the airbox now, mainly on the right side (opposite the intake). I changed the spark plugs today to the <font size="+1">Buell</font> Pro Series split ones and decided to do a little check while I had the airbox off (BTW, the rear spark plug was surprisingly easy to change, given it's location). I started the bike, whacked the throttle...and felt air puff OUT of every single one of those damned holes. Joy. It settles in after a second and starts drawing air through them, but it chokes at first, and the rush or air through the intake stack blows right back out through the holes. So do I want power now or later? LOL Bryan (Message edited by darthane on May 27, 2003, %time) | ||
| Misato |
I read a post that the race kit tells you to take it out.. anyone know for sure? | ||
| Darthane |
No, the Race Kit has you take the rubber snorkel out of the intake...I mean the velocity stack on the throttle body. Bryan | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Darthane , I have cut my velocity stack down to where it is about 3/4 of an inch high now. I siliconed the larger end back on the tube to help the incoming air. i did this after I dynod my bike with the velocity stack completely off and I gained 2 horsepower. Did anyone see the new force air box plate? I did and already have one made. I made mine the day before it was posted on the web. It is very easy and boy does it work! You do away with the top half of your airbox. You cut a 3/16" piece of aluminum to the same shape as your air filter. Then I drilled 2 holes in both sides of the bottom of the lower airbox(inside of the airfilter)Use two pieces of 1/4" all thread rod about 4" long and use jam nuts (nuts on both sides to hold the all thread in place and from turning).Drill the same 2 holes in the plate. Place on the top of the airbox and tighten down. If you do not want to crush the air filter, you can screw 2 more 1/4" nuts down to where it is flush with the top of the airbox and the plate can tighten down on this. You will feel the difference! The only problem that you will have is the noise coming out of your intake. You will hear all of your valve noise. | ||
| Darthane |
Ar15ls1, I think I will give the velocity stack a trim before I hed out on the NE trip. I am lso planning a dyno run just to se how he's running once he gets new fluids, and then there are the airbox, velocity stack, nd new spark plugs that I put in. Best I've ever gotten out of him before was 82.7hp and 66.2ft/lbs. We'll see. Not that I make a huge habit of riding in the rain, but don't you worry about getting water sucked into the intake once you've got the cover completely off? Aside from an odd (yet quiet) whistling noise at mid-high RPMs, there is no noise issue with just holes in the airbox. The valvetrain in my XB is already so noisy that if it gains another 1-3hp, what's another 5db of valvetrain noise? Bryan |
