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Ryker77
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | 
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Road Rod is hardley a sport tour. Tour yes. powerfull yes. But not sporty, not nimble, not light. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 12:52 pm: |
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Having followed Ferris (Road King with had bags) and JB2 (Victory with soft bags) on both the dragon and the Cherohola expressway, I no longer have *any* idea what is a sport tourer anymore.
In fairness though, I started confused, as I am riding an XB9SX with soft side bags, and somehow still can't find any reason why I should have more bike somewhere underneath or around me.
I think a sport touring bike is whatever you are sport touring on... |
Oldog
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 12:58 pm: |
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but a lack of money/support from the corp appears to have been
}Okay . . . let's assume for the sake of discussion that the $12,000,000 a year wasn't enough.
What sum of money do you think would have been sufficient to properly fund a race effort?
I cant say for sure, I can say from my own racing experience that it takes time, money, and talent.
FWIW it may not have been enough money, could HD afford 24 mil or 48 mil what was the ROI?
The current rulers of the sport of road racing have spent vast sums of $$ and spent years no DECADES steadly getting better
Are they that much smarter than the folks at HD are?, More tallented? more motivated? I don't think so, Why did they succede simple
Sheer single minded determination to do what ever it took to be the best / fastest/ winner
and
they had the backing of management of their respective companies. The were allowed to experiment and Fail as needed, with reasonable expectations.
if 3 cyls did not work use 4, if 5 speeds did not work use 6, simple steady improvements keep learning and building if the current platform is no longer competetive build a new one,
I guess 12 mil a year was not enough,
The racers and engineers that built and raced the VR1000 did not make the GO no GO decision to continue racing,
A manager did based on factors that again I am not privy to,
In the end its just My perspective
As is if Buell were properly funded, supported and left ALONE to do the job
given time would have a formidable racing team,
(Message edited by OlDog on June 29, 2007) |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 01:16 pm: |
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Yes a Buell book, or dvd. I picked up the Legends of Harley Davidson (I know, I know) but the Buell company received less coverage than the 1920 wrecking crew |
Pushrodpete
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 01:23 pm: |
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Knowing what you know about the folks at Buell, do you really see them "modifying" an existing anything in some sort of compromise solution
Umm.... doesn't that apply to every Buell engine so far??? |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 02:02 pm: |
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actually when i see a documentary (hour long commercial) and various print sources and even dealers themseves state these things, then one lone person tells you otherwise, who do you believe? Actually ft bstd the die hard harley guys that i've known for years haven't really taken to them. there is a conspiracy theory around every corner. The CIA blew up the world trade center, roosevelt knew about pearl harbor before hand, billy the kid really lived to be an old man blah, blah, blah. Oldog does still have a point, the japanese are VERY dedicated to racing and will spend huge sums and have the determination to win which most american companies won't these days. pushrodpete also has a good point. court why don't you just tell us all the story with your pic's and such, instead of the really old line that you always use about telling us later. better yet, get erik, or one of his engineers who come on here as anon to fill us in. |
Tommy_black_shark
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 03:19 pm: |
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Does anyone know how much a brand new clean sheet motorcycle engine costs to develop?
I have no idea, but I'd bet its a lot. Does Buell have the production numbers to justify the investment?
Sometimes I get up early so I can ride my wife's 12S to the gym. I like it early in the morning when no one is around because it is so much fun to wheelie. I was thinking this morning how the same bike with twice the power would probably just slam right over and swat me like a fly. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 06:13 pm: |
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>>>Does anyone know how much a brand new clean sheet motorcycle engine costs to develop?
Yes. To two decimal places.
In general terms . . . a boat load of bucks. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 06:48 pm: |
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I don't know that an entirely new engine would need to be created from scratch, but there are several more engines that are closer to the ideal than is the V-Rod motor. If there was a production engine that was 90% of the way to perfect and only needed 10% engine tweaking or 10% bike tweaking to make it work, it would be better than taking an engine that was only 15% of the way compatible and trying to drag the engine and bike the other 85% of the way.
We aren't changing physics or running fusion drive.
I don't know that Buell would do the Aprilia model where they used an existing powerplant to provide the nucleus of their engine development while they began to build their own engines in house, but it might be an option. Highland and other have been discussed here ad nauseum.
I look at the engine production the way I look at the mechanical watch movement market. Nearly 90% of watch movements came from one source ETA (Swatch Group). As a result, there were very little differences from brand to brand using the same base movement. Each manufacturer, though, began to modify the base movements and build upon them to the point that the movements were no longer based off of the ETA but were completely new in house movements (Omega Co-axial, Panerai P.2002, etc.). Pushing in-house movement development even further has been the decision to limit distribution of ETA movements to only Swatch Group member companies (Breguet, Blancpain, Glashutte, Jaquet Droz, Omega, Rado, Longines, Tissot, Hamilton, Certina, Mido, Swatch). With the supply of movements cut off, some are scrambling to develop their own. Others are sourcing from Japan, China, and Taiwan.
Long term third party engine sourcing doesn't make sense. Third party engine sourcing to birth a short path in-house development group does.
Not that they would, but, like I said, it might be an option were "a boat load of bucks" not an option. |
Kuuud
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 07:57 pm: |
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Anything from HD with 'Sport'in it's title is guaranteed to fail.
They have tried 3 times in recent history to bridge that gap and all were good bikes but failed to convince the HD core customer.
Basically HD suspensions SUCK. They tried to offer better suspended/handling bikes in the form of the Super Glide Sport and the Sportster Sport. Both had good adjustable suspensions and failed to sell in sufficient numbers. Same thing with the Street Rod that won't return in '08.
Meanwhile two of the hottest sellers are the Deluxe and the Street Glide. HD took two models with 3 crappy inches of suspension and lowered them. I understand the attraction for those that are vertically-challenged but the 6'3'' riders flock to them! |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:27 am: |
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ft bstrd, that is a huge reason why i tend to think the vr1000 ended up being the vrod like in all the print, dealers and the show. Why ground up build when you have a motor that just needs some refining. everybody knows porsche has reliable powerful motors down to a science. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 02:24 am: |
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Tom_b,
I would agree with you if the V-Rod motor were not 85% incompatible. It is a v-twin with water. That's about all it has going for it.
Beyond that, there is too far to go to make the V-Rod work (weight, height, power output, etc.).
I am completely not interested in a V-Rod powered Buell. That, to me, isn't an evolutionary change. Some might be interested. I believe most here would be completely disinterested in a V-Rod package.
I believe that the V-Rod motor is too much "in the box". Erik and the folks at Buell are far too talented to tell them, design a super bike around a gigantic lump that is even less compatible than the one you have. Up to this point our current engine was workable. Given a choice of all the engines in the universe, though, I bet Erik wouldn't choose the Sportster engine. It works great. I love what it does. I just think that given a completely open ended design assignment, that the current power plant wouldn't be the first choice.
If the new models are truly a leap from what we currently have and if expectations are that the next generation will need to be more in line with other "sport" bikes, I can't see that most of the folks here would be satisfied with even a larger displacement Sportster engine or the V-Rod.
There are simply too many good competitive bikes on the market that would capture the attention and passions of the current Buell clan (Super Duke, Hypermotard, 1050 Speed Triple, 1050 Tiger, 1098, 990SM, Tuono, Brutale, et. al.) and potentially draw them away from the fold.
I have faith that the Elves haven't lost a single ounce of their magic or their passion. I'm counting the milliseconds to see if 7/8/07 is the date that the collective passions of BadWeb are once again ignited by the next Buell evolutionary leap.
Were I a betting man, I'd say that the post count on day that all is revealed will be a tad higher than it is right now.  |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 07:23 am: |
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i was talking about the vr 1000 racemotor being used for the vrod platform |
Oldog
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 09:00 am: |
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Well Said Ft_B |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 09:55 am: |
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Tom_b,
I would say that would make sense. It's much easier to take a racing motor and detune and refine it for daily use in a cruiser or touring bike (Sprint, FZ1, etc.).
The cost of development for the VR1000 had been paid. The additional cost was obviously in working to tame the beast enough to make it work for the V-Rod.
I don't know what the historical issues behind the V-Rod motor, but I agree with you assessment and that it would seem logical. |
Thepup
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 10:22 am: |
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The current XB has a sportster based engine but there are some differences that make the motor lighter and smaller,the V-rod engine could get the same treatment and that engine is over built so 130hp would be no problem getting to with it.I understand most on here wouldn't be interested in a v-rod based or watercooled Buell,but Buell wants to expand it's market so that seems a logical step,that is of course if BMC is interested in attracting new customers. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 10:37 am: |
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I don't care what motor is hanging under the XB frame as long as it eats rice and craps pasta...... |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 02:20 pm: |
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Where's the beef? ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
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