| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Hey guys' i just found this interesting.I'm going to weigh my brand new Blackstonetech carbon fiber wheels and Braketech ceramic rotors i just paid $5500 for.They'll be going on my Ducati.Do you think they may be in the ballpark with my XB wheels/rotor assembly? They do feel remarkably lighter than the stock 996 assembly. Good lord. At 52.3% of the MSRP of a 12R, I'd hope they'd put my pants on in the morning as well. The trick is to produce a compilation of components that not only get the job done, but do it in a manner cost effective for the general public. To me, and I ain't even close to the standards of a "lowly construction worker", use of exotics to accomplish the same or less of what was done with plain old aluminum and steel is engineering laziness. Now if you could create a world class racer out of paper mache and balsa wood costing $482, you are a friggin' engineering master. Doing most with least gets you the kudos! | ||
| Mramsey |
I don't leave my lights on 24-7 so when I do turn them on the inrush current is very high and flexes the filament in to breakage. Some application requiring the lamp to have maximum life use inrush current limiting resistors. But sorry I'm not a construction worker. | ||
| Ducxl |
I've got the Blackstonetech STREET carbon fiber wheels.With BrakeTech AXIS ceramic GOLD rotors.The point i'm trying to make is,when i bought the package the dealer had me hold my stock rotor in my hand and quickly rotate it back and forth.It was remarkably easier with the ultra-light high dollar ceramic rotor. So YES,i believe Buell's ZTL system is a better system because it gives us a very lightweight(read:unsprung)set-up in a production based bike that is cost effective. A lightweight assembly for the masses without the exorbitant costs associated with what i've bought into on my 996. | ||
| Ducxl |
Oh,but that's what the Fat Bastard said  | ||
| Rocketman |
In terms of the physical properties Buell is light years ahead in the world of braking. Interesting how the NAS Honda is the usual target when these brake discussions appear from time to time. Honda will win the brake war in the end. They are not interested in the ZTL type system. They're aiming for bigger fish that best suit their brand image, which for Honda is not quirky engineering, no matter how good or great. The future for Honda, and they make no secret of it, where braking is concerned is to have as many motorcycles in their range as possible fitted with Anti-lock Braking Systems (ABS). I doubt Honda will put any emphasis on adapting ABS to work with rim brakes - but I could be wrong. Rocket | ||
| Fl_a1a |
With regard to moving the oil, tweaking the breaking system, adding more HPs... over-optimization is the root of all evil. If you change the variables of the Buell design I think you would end up with a Duc or some other high end bike already on the market. The best you can to is take the top 10 bikes, ride them all, and pick the one that has the best variables for your riding style. Every time I go to bike week and try the other makes I'm soo glad I got my xbs12. Seems like everyone is trying to copy XBS parameters and come close but miss in a big way ( KTM super Duke ). | ||
| L_je |
Ok, I went downstairs and took measurements of my Buell and Duc brake rotors... Per my back of the envelope calculations: Moment of Inertia for brake rotors only: Ducati = 0.021 x 2 = 0.042 kg*m^2 Buell = 0.043 kg*m^2 Again, these values are rough approximations, and ignore mounting points and hardware, as well as all of the stupid holes drilled into the rotors. While the moments are similar, the differences in unsprung weight are huge. Superbikes race on nicely groomed tracks, while I ride on some pretty lousy roads. The lighter wheel, in my opinion, tracks better. The author in the MotorCyclist article mentions rotor heat transfer into the wheel. I've never thought of this before. ...after some thought, I think the heat transfer is not significant. The rotor is freely mounted to the wheel, and thermal conduction between two media is a strong function of pressure, of which there is very little while the brake is released. While the brakes are applied, the pressure builds on one side of the contact, and this is a pretty small contact area, insulated by a lot of road grime and brake dust, and it's trying to conduct into an aluminum wheel. I just don't think it's significant. Though, feel free to disprove my hand-waving with an IR gun and some track time...I just might buy you a pizza for your efforts! Alas, as there is no Ask an Idiot column in MotorCyclist, I'll keep up my job search... | ||
| Reepicheep |
L_Je... ever since Harbor Freight started selling non contact infrared thermometers for $9, I keep one in my riding jacket pocket. I'll go and try and earn that pizza tomorrow. All I know is that my 9sx seems to have an uncanny ability to stick like glue over the worst sort of crap. On my commute to work thursday, I was coming over a hill. Far down to my left, about half a mile away on the busy intersecting highway, there was some sort of traffic "event" taking place, and it caught my attention trying to decide if it represented a threat to me. When I looked back forward right after I crested the hill, there was an unexpected traffic jam (meaning that, indeed, the event I noticed *did* have an effect on me, like my right brain was trying to tell me, but my left brain was too stubborn and stupid to listen). My brain saw my speed (50 mph) and the stopped traffic in front of me, and registered that "you are going to hit something" instantaneous adrenaline dump. Muscle memory worked where logic is still befuddled, and I pointed the bike to the 2 foot hole of asphalt to the right of the stopped traffic, hit enough rear brake to get the weight transferred to the front tire, and dropped anchor as I watched in the mirrors to see who behind me was going to hit me from what direction. This was an absolute "no way you are going to stop in time" moment... based on calculations (and a previous lowside) based on 55,000 miles of aggressive street bike riding. Imagine my surprise when (1) no cars were behind me creating "my next problem" and (2) I found myself nearly at a complete stop in *half* the distance between me and the stopped traffic. The traffic my brain said "physics have mathematically eliminated you already". Didn't even have to do a stoppie, nowhere near any limits of front grip. So whatever they did, it *really* works. Scenario number two is a right hand sweeper on the street that leads to the turn for my subdivision. I take it every day, year round, and it looks like a Beruit checkpoint, full of tar snakes, potholes, and uneven pavement transitions. I have been creeping through there a little faster every day, fairly deeply leaned over, carefully feeling for that "front end slipping" pucker. I am now at about twice the speed I would have thought possible, and have never had a hint of anything other then the front end being glued to that pavement. Whatever they are doing, it's not "quirky engineering for quirky engineerings sake"... its dammed effective. I also note this every time I pull my rear wheel for a tire change. Every time I did that with my old Yamaha, or the Cyclone, it always seemed to amaze me what an actual pain in the ass it ended up being. On this XB, it always feels like one of those "really? Thats it? I'm done already" experiences. Calling it "quirky engineering as a marketing gimmick" couldn't be further from the truth. If you want "quirky engineering as a marketing gimmick" just look at the undertail exhaust on the CBR-600RR that parks next to me at work (easy to spot, as its tires have never touched asphalt anywhere but dead center).. or look at the fairing on the VStrom that parks on the other side of me that does nothing but produce a series of right to left helmet slaps at any speed above 30mph... | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
all i have to say to this is which kind of brake holds the longest stoppie record???? also correct me if i am wrong but i remeber a certain race last year as say the brakes on the xb's were almost motogp caliber. | ||
| Anonymous |
L_je, Well you're already ahead of the Motorcyclist "Pro"! You are actually measuring things and getting facts before writing!! When you add in the inertia of the Ducati wheel (which has to have much more spoke strength in torsion to transfer the brake forces back up from the hub to the rim), you'd find them pretty far behind in inertai. And in weight they are toast. The GSXR wheel and rotor system is much more on the ragged edge of conventional design and beats the Ducati in inertia. | ||
| Obiewan |
Disturbed, I was truly wondering if there was a patent. I didn't mean to offend you in any way. I don't have a lot of insight on this issue either really. First bike I've had with the ZTL brake system. All I know is it breaks SWEET!! Have a great weekend… | ||
| Hardcorps |
This truly amazing thing happened to me today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I pulled my brake lever and I stopped! | ||
| M1combat |
It's not just the mounting system the Buell have a patent on. As I recall they also have a patent on the wheel in just such a way so that even if another manufacturer does figure out a way to mount the rotor without infringing upon the MOUNTING patent... They still aren't allowed to take advantage of the unsprung mass benefit. They have to put it on a wheel that has the ability to transfer the torque from the hub to the rim just like a conventional setup  . WRT oil in the swingarm... We don't talk about it because it's pretty well perfect Sean... There's nearly NO added rotational inertia due to the fact that the oil isn't attached to the swingarm. The swing arm acts as a heat sink. IT's VERY strong. It reduces parts count and weight. I've never seen one leak. It makes oil changes nice and quick with no mess (once you have an aftermarket exhaust that doesn't hang under the drain plug) What else is there in a swing arm? Hey puppyboy... Go take your effing rotors off and go ride please  . As I recall, Dyna found that there was a 2.5lb (not 1lb) difference (The XB was lighter) AND he didn't take into account all of the factors that were in the Buells favor (brake fluid for one). He tried real hard with a valiant effort, and I appreciate his efforts, but he still didn't find the real difference in mass. I'm sure it's close but the point is that the XB's unsprung mass is still lighter by a SIGNIFICANT margin. No... I don't care if YOU think that 2.5lbs of unsprung mass in significant. The facts are that it damn well is... especially on my favorite canyon roads where the ackerman angle of the cars makes the apex of the tight turns all rippled. The XB sticks better than anything else. "They're aiming for bigger fish that best suit their brand IMAGE, which for Honda is NOT quirky ENGINEERING, no matter how good or great. " You got that right Sean . You know puppy... It's not our fault or the XB's fault that you don't understand motorcycle dynamics well enough to figure out why the XB works so well. I promise you that there's more to it than you can see. Why do you suppose that most sport bikes need those noodley assed flexi-frames and the XB doesn't? (Message edited by M1Combat on June 10, 2007) | ||
| Rocketman |
When you add in the inertia of the Ducati wheel (which has to have much more spoke strength in torsion to transfer the brake forces back up from the hub to the rim), you'd find them pretty far behind in inertai. And in weight they are toast. But there is something missing in all this tech talk. Ducati are still out in front, both in superbike racing and out on the street, without the ZTL type brake. So what does this tell us? Their brakes disadvantage them? If that were the case, why wouldn't they look to the ZTL system? Answers on a postcard please to :- Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. Via Cavalieri Ducati, 3 40132 Bologna Italia Rocket | ||
| Thepup |
M1 how do you know japanese bikes have flexi frames,you've never ridden one,guess what they have figured out that a frame can be too rigid.Are you ever right when you come on here and post,really.When did I say the XB didn't work well,it's just not some magical bike that beats everyone in performance,for some reason those japanese bikes are beating the XB's on the track,make sure you bring up some obscure race in France to prove your point.I am so tired of hearing about your favorite road that you ride everyday,what have you beat on the track or why not head up to a different road you are not familiar with and see what happens.Tell me M1 how does that front end work and rigid frame work on bumps when you are leaning down in a corner?I bet those flexi japanese frames.Tell me M1 what company knows more about how to make a bike handle,one that has limited resources and doesnt have a factory race team or a company that has factory race teams on the highest level of motorcycle racing including MotoGP,I know who my money is on.I am sure Buell has some very talented engineers and designers,but so does the Big 4 and they have pretty much as much money as they need. | ||
| Fl_a1a |
One factor may be retooling cost. To support two breaking systems would be pricey. Even to switch out a major component of any bike could be a logistical nightmare. Think USB vs. Serial COM ports on a computer. It took years after the USB port was introduced before computer accessories started to implement USB. (Message edited by fl_a1a on June 10, 2007) | ||
| Sparky |
Well, besides the tech talk, there is the cost of the wheel/brake system. Ducati and other leading race/sport bike manufacturers buy the best that's available from Brembo who does all their own development and can make attractive race brake systems relatively affordable. Buell, on the other hand, has designed and produced the patented ZTL system in-house for its street bikes with variations for race bikes. Quite a feat, I'd say. I can't imagine how much all this research & development costs a company. So I'm guessing, but it would probably cost a team a lot more to license Buell's ZTL system and develop it to win MotoGP/ Superbike races than to just order up the latest Brembo dual-disk setup. | ||
| Rocketman |
Buell, on the other hand, has designed and produced the patented ZTL system in-house for its street bikes with variations for race bikes. Quite a feat, I'd say. Last time I looked, Buell didn't manufacture so much as a light switch, let alone any part of a ZTL type braking system. So when you say 'produce' what is so exclusive to Buell producing components as opposed to any other manufacturer doing likewise? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Buell an assembly plant with no in house manufacturing what so ever? Rocket | ||
| Anonymous |
Go away, Rocketman. You are the ultimate troll. No point in responding to your inanities. Go away, troll. | ||
| M2nc |
Rocket - You know that most manufacturers in the world use sub-contracting techniques. Economist would say it is more economical and could prove that to be true. It is best to allow specialty firms to make specialty parts. Buell is no different here. Ducati does not make all the suspension or braking bits on its bike so I do not understand your point here. As a fabricator and assembler I can make what is on the drawing, anyone with the proper training can. Its how the specifics on the drawing came to be that make it marvelous or dribble. I have many times had to bring an engineer to light about a part that is not working as intended even though it is made to spec. I trump them by using ASQ definition for noncomforming which states a part that does not meet form, fit or function of its intended use. So like the well designed part that does not work the same applies in reverse. Unless the sub-contractor designed the parts used on Buell braking systems, they can not manufacture those said parts for other makes unless approved by the owner of those patented designs. Which I believe in this case is Buell MO CO. I have no input on what is a better brake. I know the test numbers show that Buell is in the running on stopping distance, but big cruisers dominate the top slots there because they are less likely to stoppie under hard braking. The M2 stopped in the top ten range at MCN with a 109' stop from 60mph and the XB test did in 115'. The Uly does handle rough surfaces very well with little wheel hop. If the ZTL is the cause of that, it works. | ||
| Court |
>>>M1 how do you know japanese bikes have flexi frames I'd be curious to know that too. I know because some friends brought one of each, pit them in a jig, squeezed 'em, rattled em, and generally tested everything that could be tested. By the way . . . while my friends in Milwaukee were doing that with UJM and Ducatis my pals in Torrence, CA were doing the same damn thing to Buells. The good news is that both found the same thing. | ||
| Rocketman |
No point in responding to your inanities. Then why are you chasing me around in every thread? Grow up. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I do not understand your point here. Simply that Buell in producing a ZTL brake is no more a feat than Ural producing a paint that won't scratch easy. Neither company were responsible for making the product. Rocket | ||
| Ducxl |
Well, besides the tech talk, there is the cost of the wheel/brake system. Ducati and other leading race/sport bike manufacturers buy the best that's available from Brembo who does all their own development and can make attractive race brake systems relatively affordable. Buell, on the other hand, has designed and produced the patented ZTL system in-house for its street bikes with variations for race bikes. Quite a feat, I'd say. You said LEADING manufacturers. You get what you pay for.Buell believes in the masses and produces an economical bike with sportlike attributes we can all use on the street.Companies like the financially challenged Ducati are driven by passion to produce high end motorcycles that we do not need...BUT WANT. We want a certain motorcycle from Buell,but thats just not what Buell is about.And that's ok with me,so long as they fix my headlights. | ||
| Buellshyter |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Buell an assembly plant with no in house manufacturing what so ever? Geesh, get with the 21st century - dude. As has been previously stated, most manufacturers of complex machinery sub out bits and pieces of the components. Hell, look at your country, you all barely even assemble let alone make anything anymore. In a time when many manufacturers are leaving for China and India, I applaud companies like Buell that stick it out. The fact that my Buell was "assembled" in the U.S. is one of the reasons I purchased it. Furthermore, if nothing else, the design engineering is done "in house". | ||
| M1combat |
"guess what they have figured out that a frame can be too rigid." That's was my point EXACTLY Puppyboy . You don't know WHY they decided they can be too rigid so you have NO IDEA why a more rigid frame works for Buell. I'll give you a hint... It's fairly close to the same reason that the C1's frame could be more rigid. Just solved with different engineering solutions . Really bro... think. I ran a trackday in the intermediate class at Firebird intl. Admittedly it was made for a Buell at .9 miles and nine turns but my favorite set of laps had me dicing it up with a CBR1000RR. He'd pull away about 60-80' on the back stretch and by T3 (the turn leading onto the back stretch I'd have him by about 20'. As you'd imagine it took four laps and me passing him four times to finally make it stick. We left the paddock first and second so there was no traffic to get in our way. The track is a bumpy one too. I wouldn't expect to beat him at Monza, but I would certainly expect to beat him on just about any deep canyon road (which happens to be where I like to ride...). For the record his leathers were not new and he had a race bike there as well that he was running in the advanced class. It was my first track day. The 600's were cake. | ||
| Rocketman |
Hell, look at your country, you all barely even assemble let alone make anything anymore. Man you really are misinformed. Ask yourself this question. Why is the UK the recognised home of international motorsport? Everything is built here. Don't kid yourself it's not either. Rocket | ||
| Thepup |
M1,I sure do know why frames need flex and the Buell ZTL does not solve that problem,unless of course Buell has found a way to make the forks bend sideways when leaned over.M1 it must be all that extra torque that no one else has.So what else would you like to talk about ,how about how the Buell's fuel in the frame makes it's center of gravity lower than every other sportbike? | ||
| Buellshyter |
Man you really are misinformed. The sun set on the British Empire long ago. You export very little but have a suicidal desire to import radical Islamists. That's ok, keep telling yourself the glory days aren't behind you.  | ||
| 07xb12scg |
How in the hell did this thread about Buell's ZTL brake system turn into a "my country is better than your country thread"?! Wow! |
