| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Ducati does not make a 1200cc air cooled engine either. C'mon, of COURSE hp per cc is important, otherwise why not just say the Boss Hoss is the highest performing motorcycle you can buy and be done with it?? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Uhh, Spike, the "displacement argument" was not regarding comparison to another air-cooled two-valver. Court, I know you know better, now I think you are trolling. | ||
| Spike |
Following that logic:  The big 4 from Japan are able to crush Ducati's ~95hp 1000cc DS motor with a mere 600cc. If hp per cc is that important in determining engineering prowess Ducati should just pack it up and go home. What's that you say? Comparing a water-cooled, DOHC I4 to an air-cooled SOHC V2 is apples to oranges? My point exactly. Different engine architecture will result in different power output for a given displacement. The 1000DS engine and the XB engine are both air-cooled v-twins, but that does not make them equal. The XB engine uses push-rods and has a relatively long stroke. The 1000DS motor uses SOHC and has a relatively short stroke. It is a given that the higher-revving overhead cam engine will make more power for a given displacement, and thus a displacement advantage must be given if the two engines are to compete. While Ducati doesn't currently make an air-cooled 1200cc v-twin, they did develop an 1100cc version of the 1000DS motor. I couldn't find a dyno chart for the 1100cc version of the motor, but going by the claims on Ducati's website the 1100cc version doesn't make any more power at its peak than the 1000cc version. If that is the case, that means Ducati kept all the overhead cam and short stroke goodness of the 1000DS motor while cutting the displacement advantage of the XB12 in half and still didn't manage to make an air-cooled engine that is significantly more powerful than an XB12. | ||
| Spike |
More interesting Ducati/Buell air-cooled comparison data:  This test was from '02 with an '03 XB9R and an '03 Ducati 900SS (predecessor to the 1000DS motor). The 900SS motor displaced 904cc compared to the XB9s 984cc, giving the XB a little better than 8% advantage in displacement (compared to the ~20% advantage between the 1000DS and the XB12). As you can see, the XB9 out powers the 900SS up until the 7500rpm limit, while the 900SS continues to rev for another ~1500rpm and continues building power to a peak of 76.8hp, just 1 tenth of a horsepower ahead of the XB9. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Spike, why don't you compare the XB9 to a 1000 dual spark? What is your point to compare it to an outdated Ducati engine that is smaller than the XB? I just don't understand that comparison at all. Apples to apples is the 1000 DS vs. the XB9. | ||
| Blake |
The BMW R1200 air-cooled two valve twin is the current king of the class with ~120 HP. I'd give it another month to enjoy that honor. | ||
| Spatten1 |
It is a given that the higher-revving overhead cam engine will make more power for a given displacement, and thus a displacement advantage must be given if the two engines are to compete. If Buell used leather main bearings and a total loss oiling system, what displacement would be fair then? | ||
| Spatten1 |
The BMW R1200 air-cooled two valve twin is the current king of the class with ~120 HP. I'd give it another month to enjoy that honor. Blake, I hope you are right, that would be stellar! | ||
| Buellshyter |
The BMW R1200 air-cooled two valve twin is the current king of the class with ~120 HP. I'd give it another month to enjoy that honor. Guess I'll hold off on painting my bike  | ||
| Spike |
Because the two aren't direct competitors. The cheapest 1000DS powered Ducati available is the Monster S2R 1000 which retails for a full $1,600 more than an XB9R at $10,495- the same price as an XB12.
Outdated and smaller? They were both current models when that comparison was written. Both represented the most powerful air-cooled twins from each manufacturer. Also, the XB9 engine is only 8% larger. If you wanted to compare air-cooled twins in 2002, what other models would you have chosen?
Those two apples are not the same. The only thing that ties them together is the displacement. | ||
| Spatten1 |
OK | ||
| Thepup |
Spike how about comparing the Ducati SS800 to the XB9R. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
all i can say is that a comparably equipped DUCATI 900 air cooled M/C WILL dust your ass (XB-9 OR 12) on the interstate !(roll-on or drop gears) i have been there !! | ||
| Spike |
 
All I can say is that I haven't seen those results myself and quarter mile times for the bikes say otherwise. From Motorcycle.com's XB9R/900SS comparison: Buell XB9R Firebolt 1/4-mile (corrected): 11.86 sec. @ 114.93 mph Ducati 900 Supersport 1/4-mile (corrected): 11.94 sec. @ 114.61 mph From Sport Rider's XB12R/1000SS comparison: PERFORMANCE NUMBERS Quarter-Mile Buell XB12R: 11.43 sec. @ 117.5 mph Ducati SS1000 DS: 11.40 sec. @ 120.5 mph Roll-ons, 60-80 mph Buell XB12R: 3.98 sec. Ducati SS1000 DS: 4.01 sec. Roll-ons, 80-100 mph Buell XB12R: 4.45 sec. Ducati SS1000 DS: 4.71 sec. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Spike, why don't you compare the XB9 to a 2002 Ducati Monster 620? How about a 1972 Triumph? | ||
| Jaimec |
The BMW R1200S engine is a FOUR valve cam-in-head design. Although technically it has (very short) pushrods, the AMA disallowed it as a pushrod engine in it's racing classes. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
spike , just because it is in print DOES not mean it's true ! the "concrete dyno" speaks the truth !!! | ||
| Spike |
I'm sure it's fun to make jokes, but all the Ducati/Buell comparisons so far have been between current models that compete in price and performance. If you'd like to claim that I've cherry-picked the Buell data and put the XB against older and lesser models please cite where I have done so. However, you might want to note that all the data I have posted so far has come from magazine articles that directly compare the Buell and the Ducati. | ||
| Spike |
Wait, so the "concrete dyno" speaks the truth while the actual dyno and the drag strip lie? | ||
| Spatten1 |
1) 2002 models 2) Non-DS outdated engine designs 3) Less displacement I'd call each of those cherry picking. The discussion started regarding performance potential of air cooled engines, not price. You interjected a $1600 price difference to say that the DS is not comparable to the XB9. That is silly, they are the same displacement, air cooled, two-valvers, v-twins, old engines that have been massaged over time. Best engineering comparison out there if you want to understand what levels of performance can be expected from an engine of similar design while staying legal and reliable. | ||
| Court |
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| Cycleaddict |
spike ,magazine editors tend to change figures i/e "results corrected blah, blah, brought to sea level , temp. corrected etc.etc. but, instead of reading about BUELL performance , i have been actively participating in my own performance "testing". i will ride anything i have the opportunity to . so take your BUELL out, and see if your motor is a better performer than ???. | ||
| Spike |
The XB9/900SS were compared in 2002, both were current models at the time. In the XB12/1000SS comparison both were current models. In the XB9/800SS comparison both were current models. No cherry picking there.
The DS engine wasn't available when the XB9 was released, so it wasn't possible to compare them at the time. The 1000DS update also featured a displacement increase and was released at the same time as the XB12, so is only fair to compare it to the XB12. Please note that the price was very close between the XB9/900SS and the XB12/1000SS. No cherry picking there either.
We've already been over that. If you can't understand why varying engine architecture demands varying displacement to get equal horsepower, there's nothing else I can do to help you. The rest of the world including major racing classes (FX, MotoGP, and soon WSBK) understands this and allows varying displacement to make varying engine layouts competitive.
Current models against current models with equal prices using accepted displacement adjustments. Call it what you wish, but it's not cherry picking.
And as we've seen, Ducati does not produce an air-cooled engine that out-powers an XB12 by any significant margin.
Comparing bikes based on price and performance is silly? We've beat the displacement argument to death. The majority of the bike buying planet chooses bikes based on what they like and what fits in their budget. If you have $10,500 to spend and are looking for an air-cooled v-twin you would compare the $10,495 XB12 and the $10,495 S2R 1000DS. You wouldn't step down to the $8895 XB9 simply because of the displacement. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Wow, I don't even know where to start. I'm out. | ||
| Court |
Frankly . . . that's why I love Bonneville. The entire (Insert name of Team you-know-who here) started when some BMW and Moto-Guzzi folks got mouthy about what their bikes would really do and how lame the Buell was. Nothing like a timing slip to send mouthy kids home with their TALE twinxt their legs. I'd sure like to see some documentation about which magazine "fixed" a dyno test. I see the charts here are from Sport Rider and Motorcycle Online.\ Anyone want to volunteer to see the "mags doctor charts" post and get their reaction? And how . . in this doctoring did differing mags happen to all decide to put the lowly Buell on top . . . it's a frickin' conspiracy I tell ya . . H-D with all their $$$ is exercising mind control. Gotta run . . . I'm off to follow the logic and objectivity that left 12 posts ago. . . | ||
| Ducxl |
Sound like handicapping to me.I'd demand a comparo of bikes with equal displacement.Nevermind the static and whatever......you're handicapping.compare a 1200 Buell against another manufact}urers 1200. That said,with our antiquated pushrod engines we need more displacement to make more power.And that's ok with me. | ||
| Blake |
Jaime, You are right, the four valves per cylinder of the new BMW air-cooled twin provide a significant performance/cc advantage. Thanks for the clarification on that. So... Buell still RULES!  | ||
| Buellshyter |
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams" Court, did you read HBO is doing a mini-series in 08 about John Adams? | ||
| Blake |
DucXL, Why do you choose displacement as the one governing factor for comparing engine performance? Why not dynamic displacement (displacement x rev limit) which takes into account things like bore/stroke ratio (rev limit) and such. | ||
| Jackelfox |
im glad Blake finally mentioned this. Gooodness had to personally explain this time and time again with techonologically ignorant supersport riders when the XBRR went racing with 600s (which is funny because that wasnt even the controversy) |
