| Author | Message | ||
     Blublak |
I don't know how we drifted off WSBK rules Come On.. This is the BadWeb.. we can start a discussion about.. uh.. Clutch adjuster lock nuts and the specific friction required to tighten one to 'factory spec' and end up talking about the color of next years Under-Roos line for 2 year olds..  Matt, you partially answered the question regarding the 'RR's legality in AMA FX. The big hubbub was based on a couple of things really.. The factory doing the mods as opposed to the actual racer. The engine mods were determined to fall under the unlimited umbrella since if a private team had the money and the skills/tools etc. they could have done the same thing so once they looked at it like that, it became a non-issue with AMA, I think the frame mods might have been a headache thought and it was finally determined that if you bought one of each, you could weld the two frames and form the bike and therefore it was allowed. As for the rest of the go fast bits, as far as I know, the big 4 can run any fairing they want as well as the wheels etc. I think the real sticking point that some of the teams had was that the factory was doing the modifications so it was more like a factory team bike, purpose built like a GP machine. This may or may not (depending on your point of view) have been the case. In the end it was decided that it was not so and the 'RR' was an XB12 derivitive after all and therefore based (perhaps a little loosely for some) on the actual street machine and therefore allowed. As I understand it, BMW ran into a stumbling block with their FX bike since AMA did not see it as a 'pushrod' motor as such and disallowed it at the 1.3L displacement. Hence, no BMW in AMA FX.. Of course, I'm not an expert on these things and I don't play one on TV either.. Nor did I stay at Holiday Inn Express last night.. So take it as you might. We now attempt to return to WSBK rules and such.. thank you. | ||
| Bigblock |
Actually, all the bikes are allowed modifications for increased fuel capacity in FX, so to whine about a "custom frame" on the xbrr is ignorant, really, as it is intended as a fuel capacity modification, and nothing else. Something many of your favorite and "in the rules" rice grinders have in fx. Hasn't this been a dead issue for some time now? Some people just want to whine. Face it, the ama needed a serious shake up, it was about time. Oh, wait, we're back to WSB rules, something I know even LESS (hard to believe) about than FX!  | ||
| M1combat |
"The Japanese don't have this "heritage" issue that holds back companies like Ducati and Harley Davidson. For some reason, those companies feel like they HAVE to build a V-Twin racing bike. Well, if that's what you're going to do... then expect to lose if you're going to compete against a company that is more flexible in their thought processes." We've gotta come up with a way to distinguish the two types of race fans. Some people believe that the world is all honky dorey when all the bikes you can buy are IL4's because that's what wins races at a given displacement. I'll agree. Given a specific displacement in a motorcycle the in-line four cylinder engine seems to be the most efficient. That said... I like variety. I think that if someone wants to build a desmo v-twin then they should be allowed to compete. This takes a displacement advantage (because they have an RPM disadvantage). In my little world this rings true with an air cooled push-rod v-twin as well, but goes even further in the same direction. I also don't like IL4 engines for a tight canyon. It's not that they're "bad"... I just don't prefer them. For the record... I don't like porsches either and they're great cars. It's like the right and left side of politics. People just look at the issue from different perspectives. Neither are wholly correct. In my opinion it all comes down to the fact that some people believe that an engine is defined by it's displacement and some see displacement as merely a characteristic that can be used to achieve parity between configurations. I have an idea... lets limit the IL4's to three valves since they have more pistons anyhow. SWEPT VOLUME ACROSS THE USED CURVE!!!!! There  . I settled it. Damn I'm good  . | ||
| M1combat |
Oh.... for the record I just watched R4 of WSBK... Xaus looked like that year old duck wasn't holding him back much. However... If Ducati are spending significantly more money to get to the same place then something should indeed be done. Give the ducks more displacement and less leeway in unobtainium parts. | ||
| Rocketman |
Give the ducks more displacement and less leeway in unobtainium parts. That's exactly what Ducati have suggested! Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Give the ducks more displacement and less leeway in unobtainium parts. Exactly. 1098 should be enoough for them Any more is being greedy By the way, BMW won their class at the Le Mans 24 hour race with their new and totally gorgeous 1200cc Sportboxer air cooled twin. The bike lasted the full race distance with no dramas or breakdowns, and Nate Kern loved it  They are already testing the road going version of this bike, which should be available inthe shops by the end of this year The road version features a very neat underseat exhaust that also forms the undertray, and can just be seen at the rear of this picture  I hope that Buell have something exciting in the wings for release in July, as the competition is hotting up all the time. The new Aprilia Shiver looks fabulous and is GBP1700 (US$3400) cheaper than the XB range, with the same power available from it's 750 V Twin. | ||
| Blake |
What Dave Gess said! My time is short, I have a front end to remount on the old Cyclone so I can do some riding this weekend. Matt, The #1 definition of modify in my dictionary is "To change in form or character; alter." (Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.) As I said, if entirely new cams, pistons, cylinders, intake, etc are allowed, what is the difference if the cases are also different, cause they are visible on an assembled machine?  The Buells I saw racing Formula Xtreme in July of 2004 at Laguna Seca were not XBRRs. The rules were never changed for the XBRR. The XBRR conformed to the rules. The rules allow unlimited engine modification. It's bewildering that some folks still want to debate that fact. The AMA Pro Racing management/personnel situation had little to nothing to do with the XBRR. This too has been addressed, not only here, but in the motorcycle racing media. There was some big lawsuit and some of the folks involved and on the wrong side needed to go. That's my recollection. If you know of evidence to the contrary, I'd welcome learning the details. | ||
| Blake |
Jaime, "firing both cylinders on the same stroke" I don't believe the XR750 fires both cylinders on the same stroke. No H-D/Buell engine I know does. Like I said, I like the CCS rules for streetbike based or whatever class of racing. They allow all manner of different engine configurations to compete head to head on as fair a basis as possible, just like SCCA does for its racing series as Dave so adeptly pointed out. See the difference is that some view displacement as the one and only ruler by which to gauge the relative performance capacity among different configurations of engine. Well, that is just plain ignorant. Displacement is just one of the major factors affecting engine performance. Others are combustion cycle (turbine, two stroke, wankel, 4-stroke, etc...), type of aspiration/fuel (natural, turbo, supercharged, nitro or nitrous augmented), number of cylinders, valves, and bore to stroke ratio. The idea of street bike racing series should be to see various street bikes compete against one another on as level a playing field as possible. Not to force all manufacturers via the ignorant mentality of "displacement is the only thing and everything" to adopt the same optimum racing bred engine configuration for their street bikes. Japan Inc has been extremely successful in peddling its marketing hype and gaining a huge advantage in many racing series around the world with little or no consideration given to any other factors affecting engine performance. What do you imagine would happen if Buell or some other non-Japan Inc manufacturer came out with a supercharged 600cc street bike that put out 150 RWHP? Well Japan Inc is already protected from that, since the rules prohibit supercharging. Why? If a manufacturer were to build it and sell it for street use, why prohibit it? The answer is simple, it is prohibited to prevent a scenario where ALL manufacturers wishing to compete in Supersport racing would be forced to follow suit and produce street bikes with superchargers. Well, in my view forcing anyone who wishes to compete in Supersport racing to go to a 600cc IL4 engine is no different and I think it SUCKS! Anyone who would like to see Ducati 749 machines racing in AMA SS thinks it sucks. Anyone who would like to see the Triumph 675cc machines race in SS thinks it sucks too. Forcing manufacturers to mold their street bikes to fit a racing class entirely based upon displacement and nothing else is unfair and just plain ignorant. People want to see their preferred sporting motorcycles allowed to compete in the world's leading racing series. It's wrong and unfair to shape the rules to only benefit a certain configuration or manufacturing segment of the sport. I don't care much about watching AMA Superbike or Supersport or Superstock racing. If not for a few local boys running in those series, I'd not give a lick about 'em. They are no more than spec racing, all the bikes look the same, sound the same, and I don't care much for any of them, especially not the 600cc machines. I'm not alone in that view. How smart is it to alienate a significant portion of potential racing fans by effectively disallowing all but one configuration of motorcycle engine to be competitive? It's stupid. The AMA was very smart in taking steps to allow other machines to compete against the Japan Inc IL4 based 600cc machines. Hopefully the competition will only improve in years to come. | ||
| Jaimec |
Firing both cylinders on the same stroke is what gives Harley/Buell engines that unique sound (that Harley wanted to patent). Harley ran a "Big Bang" engine long before it became popular in road racing. It allows the wheel ample time to hook up and regain traction before the next power pulse hits (and potentially breaks it loose again). It makes the motorcycle much easier to handle when steering with the back wheel. I thought EVERYONE knew this?? | ||
| Blake |
Excellent link JQ. I hope the world's top motorcycle road racing series get as serious as the NHRA is in allowing different configurations of engines to race on a level playing field. | ||
| Trojan |
\i The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. } Isn't that a contradiction in terms? A bit like 'Army Intelligence' or 'Happily Married' I'll stick with the Oxford English dictionary thanks | ||
| Trojan |
The Buells I saw racing Formula Xtreme in July of 2004 at Laguna Seca were not XBRRs. The rules were never changed for the XBRR. The XBRR conformed to the rules. The rules allow unlimited engine modification. It's bewildering that some folks still want to debate that fact. The Buells that you saw racing iin FX 2004 were modified XB12R's from Hal's and Rich Cronrath. These bikes used the stock crankcases so were perfectly legal all along, no argument from anyone. The arguments came with the XBRR precisely because the cases were not stock but completely remanufactured, which stretched the rules to breaking point. Obviously others thought the same because people resigned over it and the threats of protests were very real. The only reason that no protest has ever been lodges is that the XBRR has never scored well enough to worry the top teams. | ||
| Davegess |
Matt, I don't think anyone resigned over it. There was a real shakeout at the AMA that happened at the same and continues but I am pretty sure that was in the works for quite a while represents a palace coup. Not sure which side the winners are on. Since the FX rules allow pushrod twins "unlimited modifications" you have a rule so open for interpretation that it will likely be the cause of arguments until it is changed. Reminds me of the unlimited displacement rule in the original Can-Am series. It caused no issues until Jim Hall decided to use that clause to add a second small engine to run a suction device to pull the car down on the road. It worked. The ruling body said it was legal. Everyone else screamed bloody murder and protested the darn thing. It was legal and would have survived any protests so they changed the rules. Just trying to say that just because your competition THINKS it is against the rules doesn't mean it is. Personally I think they need to open up the FX rules even more, I want the full on GP race bikes in it like the old Formula Exetreme allowed. I think they had 250 cc race bikes and modified 1000 cc street bikes running in the same class! The whole idea of FX is to get as wide a variety of machinery on the track as possible and set the rules to allow them to be competitve with each other. | ||
| Jaimec |
Honda dropped off of the AMA Racing Board over this issue: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Feb/060218e.ht m | ||
| Davegess |
I believe that there was more to that than the PR says. The FX thing made a nice smoke screen but I think the actual deal is that Honda felt that they were being pushed out a position of control and jumped to protest this. I, of course, have no evidence to support this but hey this is the internet and evidence is not needed is it? Secondly I would not believe anything Superbike Planet says about Buell or Harley, I think Erik must have made fun of Dean's manhood or something, he never misses a chance to slam Erik. | ||
| Firebolt428 |
Agreed... Dean always slam's or makes fun of Buell's every chance he gets. | ||
| Jaimec |
Dean didn't write that article... it was a press release from Honda: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?Ar ticleID=3002&Page=1 | ||
| Davegess |
I know that I just think it is smoke and mirrors on Hondas part | ||
| Bigblock |
So What? WHat does the AMA stand for? Why should we care if Honda, A japanese Co., drops off the board of the AMA? Sounds to me like they had way too much power in the AMA, and good riddance! They still raced at Daytona this year, look how good they did...  | ||
| M1combat |
"oth cylinders on the same stroke is what gives Harley/Buell engines that unique sound (that Harley wanted to patent). Harley ran a "Big Bang" engine long before it became popular in road racing." No... The fact that it's a 45 degree twin with both rods on the same journal is what gives it the "Harley" sound. Also... Firing both cylinders on the same revolution (not the same "stroke" as they all fire just after the compression stroke) on a twin that isn't parallel is called a "Twingle" configuration... Not a "Big Bang" configuration. In any case... How can someone POSSIBLY be for Ducati having an advantage in parts availability and against Buell being able to re-cast their cases when the rules have the phrase "Unlimited Modification" written into them? I don't get it. Modification without limits*. * - Well... Except the cases I mean. Yep... I don't see any asterisks in that part of the rule book and neither did the sanctioning body. The modification was necessary to gain the swept volume and still be reliable. This is what it took, so on that fact alone it's all good and within the rule IMO because the goal is to be able to play the game the way you want without having a marked advantage. Look at the FIA GT series. Everything from inline sixes to boxer fours to V10's and V12's. It's very close and competitive racing. They run HUGE diesels at LeMans!!!! WTF? Maybe they oughta just make the diesels run the same displacement as the V8's? Or maybe the V10's. Wait... Maybe the V12's would be a better limit? Crap... Aright fine... Lets just DO OUR EFFING HOMEWORK to see what a certain engine configuration is capable of and set the displacement limit based on achieving parity in performance and be done with it like a REAL race organization. WSBK should allow Ducati what they need and no more. For the SAME reasons, the AMA allowed Buell (or anyone deciding to run an air cooled v-twin) the same ability. To achieve parity in performance and bring in the audience so that more people can cheer for their chosen brand. It's good for the sport. How can YOU possibly argue with that Matt? YOU are the one who has complained about the fact that there are very few classes in which a Buell can competitively run in the UK. If you want to run a Buell then the rules of some of the classes need to be changed so that the Buell can be competitive. You CANT do that by giving the other teams more rules. It must be done by allowing the aircooled twin some modification. Lets face it... We all know that the air-cooled twin is NOT competitive with the In-line four at the same displacement. We aren't even attempting to tip toe around that fact. We're saying "That's a fact, but we wanna race one anyhow, so how can we do it without having a marked performance advantage?" Answer? "Unlimited Modification". "More displacement". "Parts availability". All of these answers have their benefits and drawbacks. We all know this. The next question then is "Which one has the benefits and drawbacks that we can live with?" Ducati says they're ok with less parts availability and more displacement. Buell says they're ok with more displacement and more modification. Either way, the answers aim to achieve parity in total package performance. Why shouldn't we go there? Because someone feels that re-casting the cases is "too far" or because Ducati might be asking for "too much"? Let it be and see where the chips fall. If too many fall in one direction then re-arrange them again. It's the name of the game. It's not about who can show up with the same bike and pay for the best rider. If you'd like to see the results of that formula watch some F1. Remember F1 in the eighties? The sixties? FIA GT currently? ALMS? Speed world challenge? That's some GOOD racing right there. That's what we all want yes? | ||
| Blublak |
Correct me if I'm wrong.. But I thought a 'Big Bang' Motor was a V-4 that fired both pistons on the same side at the same time. It's what a lot of MotoGP machines were running (may still be) but as far as I know, there are no street machines doing it, so no SBK/SS type racing with that motor. As for the rest. I think a HP/weight limit might be the way to go. Parity for the machines, forget how much they displace, what about how they work? X bhp with a minimum weight of X kg for all the bikes, regardless of engine type, number of gears etc. Pretty basic, easier to check, and makes Formula Extreme.. well.. Extreme again. Everyone and their grandmother could then come out and play. Sound like something you've heard of before? ASRA has something similar already and it seems to work pretty well. Is it that FIM and AMA are worried about loosing too much money from the 'Big Four' if they have a class that allows ALL the makers to play if they choose too? I for one would love to see more brands out there. I know, MotoGP has a weight and displacement limit and if you have the millions, you too could come out and play. But on a smaller, more local scale, wouldn't it be cool if AMA FX had my above rule? Everything and the kitchen sink goes, so long as you don't break the simple rules. Or if FIM has an 'ExTreme' class that allowed EVERYONE to run if they choose? It would put butts in the seats, and open up advertising demographics for the the TV rights. So there's some money to be had.. all you have to do .. (to paraphrase here) Build it.. and they will come. | ||
| Trojan |
How can YOU possibly argue with that Matt? YOU are the one who has complained about the fact that there are very few classes in which a Buell can competitively run in the UK. If you want to run a Buell then the rules of some of the classes need to be changed so that the Buell can be competitive. You CANT do that by giving the other teams more rules. It must be done by allowing the aircooled twin some modification. I would love to see more Buells racing in the UK, but I would rather see Buells that are competitive with the other bikes without having to have special rules or exemptions in order to do so. As it stands, the XBRR is illegal for pretty much anything in the UK except Sound of Thunder, and Warr's don't seeem in any hurry to get their XBRR out of mothballs to race against the 1098/RC51/999/KTM Superduke (last year's winner) etc that dominate that series. It may be that the Buell would be more than competitive, but I don't think we are going to find out any time soon  Last year I spent a an awful lot of time and money introducing the Thunderbike series to the UK, in the niaive hope that it would encourage some dealers and individuals to race BUells in the UK. The rules heavily favour air cooled twins and are exactly the same as the US Thunderbike rules, where as you know Buell dominates proceedings. Well, we were the only team to campaign an XB, and team begger ran an S1. That was it. No support from dealers or even from Buell UK, who to be honest were useless. This year there will be no Buells running in the series at all. If Buell brought out a truly competitive ELIGIBLE superbike then we would see more of them racing that's for sure. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Firing intervals of a V-2 45 degrees is 405-315-405-315-405... (degrees of crank rotation) compare this to an IL4 that has 180 degrees between firings (180-180-180-180-180...)and you see why a V-2 is a BIG BANG motor. Also the fact that the HD motor is not revving more than 7000 rpm, the firing intervals, timewise, are very distinctive compared to a screaming IL4 at 15000rpm That is why our Buells do not spin that much, compared to a Jap 600cc, although the torque delivered is twice as much. The rear tire between the firing intervals finds grip, so a V-2 motor is getting more power on the road with minimum spin. This is the great benefit of the V-2. Another interesting approach to a big bang delivery was done by Benelli, that gave its 3-cylinder Tornado the following firing order. 120-120-120-360-120-120-120-360..... So you have 3 very close firings and then a full 'quiet' revolution of the crank. The sound of this engine compared to a 3-cylinder Triumph is VERY different. The Triumph fire evenly every 240 degrees of crank rotation (240-240-240...). For me, this is the best sounding motorcycle engine. Listening to Benelli Tornado on the track is a GREAT experience....... | ||
| Rocketman |
Yamaha ran a 'big bang' R1 in BSB 2005 season. Funnily enough, it sounded just like the Duc's and was hard to determine which was which by sound alone. 'Big Bang' can be applied to any configuration of motor. Rocket | ||
| Jaimec |
When I was at Laguna Seca two years ago for the USGP it was easy to understand the difference between "Big Bang" and standard firings. All you had to do was listen to the MotoGP bikes (which have stratospheric redlines, but have a deep, basso roar) vs. the AMA Superbikes (which SCREAMED, the Ducati 999s being the exception). It was hard to tell the MotoGP bikes were multi-cylinder, they all sounded like really LOUD twins. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
James Toseland has the superpole at ASSEN. His chances for winning the WSBK championship this year are looking better and better. | ||
| Trojan |
James Toseland has the superpole at ASSEN. Cool Although he has the pair of Ducatis breathing down his neck. even Lanzi woke up and qualified well ! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
The race 2 at Assen was GREAT. The best race for WSBK in years. Toseland today proved that he deserves to be the 2007 champion. I hope he gets the title and next year he moves to MotoGP. I would like to see what a top WSBK rider at his prime age, could do against the riders coming from the 2-stroke 125+250cc school. Toseland on the Honda looked like Capirossi, with the bike flexing and he pushing and pushing. I think he deserves a HRC ride, unless Hayden turns things upside down. I hope Honda forgets about politics and marketing, and gives him a factory ride. | ||
| Bads1 |
If he wouldn't of wheelied right before the finish line he would of won. One heck of a close race. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I thought that MV AGUSTA was about to shut down, because of financial trouble. Today I read that that they will run a factory supported WSBK bike in 2008, with Carl Fogarty as the team manager. What is going on??? |
