| Author | Message | ||
     José_quiñones |
"one factory above the others" Well when the only Italian manufacturer in a racing series run by Italians racing on Italian tires asks you for a "favor"..... But it is no just Ducati, KTM and a few other manufacturers are waiting to jump into WSBK once the 1200cc rule for twins is enacted. | ||
| Jaimec |
Only Italian manufacturer in a racing series run by Italians? Did someone tell MV Agusta they weren't Italian? | ||
| Jaimec |
Again, I agree with Matt. Aprilia is well on the way to developing a V-Four engine for superbikes. Why isn't Ducati capable of doing the same? In fact, they already HAVE a V-Four in a production motorcycle! Race the Desmosedici! | ||
| Blake |
Ducati is V-Twin motorcycles. For a racing organization like WSB to not make a thoughtful effort to maintain parity of twin cylinder bikes on a similar cost basis with the four cylinder bikes would be a huge shame, and I for one would immediately loose interest in the series. I expect that many other current fans of WSB feel exactly the same way. At one time the well understood performance advantage of four cylinders over two led to the twins in AMA and WSB enjoying a 33% advantage in displacement (1,000cc versus 750cc). The Ducatis and later the RC51 proved that 33% advantage in displacement to be an excessive adjustment. The twins came to totally dominate the series. Currently, despite some advantages in rules governing engine modifications, the twins in AMA SBK cannot compete on par with the 1,000cc fours, so they withdrew. I don't blame them; and the series is much much poorer for it, another very poor decision by the folks running the show at AMA Pro Racing. WSB rules allow even greater engine modification to the twins; that along with investing exorbitantly in their machines, has allowed the Ducatis to maintain parity with the fours in WSB. However, it isn't true parity if Ducati must invest double or more in their machines in order to be competitive with the four cylinder competition. The last thing I care to see as a racing fan and spectator is nothing but a bunch of whining four cylinder machines that are virtually indistinguishable from one another. The top levels of professional racing are fan and spectator driven. No fans, no racing. I don't want to see Ducati given another overdog advantage either. Based on history, I think a displacement advantage of 20% with the rest of the rules identical between 1000cc fours and 1200cc twins is a fair place to start. Maybe then we'd see Aprilia rejoin the superbike paddock, and maybe KTM, and yes, maybe someday Buell too. If the folks looking to garner sponsors and earn a profit by running AMA-SB and WSB are savvy, they'll be trying to be as inclusive as possible for their top racing classes, all while working diligently and thoughtfully to maintain parity among all configurations of competition machinery. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Did someone tell MV Agusta they weren't Italian? Oops, forgot they had a bike in World Superbike this year, good catch. The point is still valid, the FIM/WSBK has shown before that they are willing to race without the Japanese Factory teams after the Pirelli Tire deal went down a a few years ago. I think they will do whatever needs to be done to keep Ducati involved, the fact that KTM and others are waiting in the wings is even more incentive to change the rules. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Looking at the SUPERSTOCK 1000cc series and results, might give a good idea for what would be fair for ALL MANUFACTURERS. The 1098S is doing OK against the IL4s, and the allowed mods are the same for everybody regarding the engine. The 1098S is leading the championship and in 2 races has finished 1st and 3rd. Not bad So the 100cc advantage seems to be OK for the SUPERSTOCK, so why not for WSBK and AMA ? If Ducati is trying to convience the motorcycle community that they need 200cc advantage to keep up with the Jap IL4s, is bad for them actually. I wonder why they do not see it. It sounds like their bikes lack performance compared to the Japs, which I think is not true. I think Ducati is trying to cheat at the moment by benting the rules, and I do not like that. I am a Ducati fan, but giving them a 200cc advantage is BAD for their reputation and the sport. If they start winning with their extra displacement over the IL4s, then everybody (propably Ducati fans as well) will definately say "Well Jap bikes are better, and Ducati wins because of their 200cc advantage, not because the race a superior chassis" On the other hand I want to see a V-2 Ducati competing against IL4s,V-4s, 3-cylinders (I hope Benelli & Triumph enters at some point) etc. I guess that an 100cc advantage + ban of traction control is fair for everybody. If Ducati is so much into reducing the cost, why not try to ban the electronics that Ducati first introduced into the WSBK series, getting technology from MotoGP? So their excuse for reducing racing costs is NOT valid. They just want an unfair advantage. But on the other hand, maybe Ducati is asking for 200cc to get the 100cc, who knows? One thing is for sure, the WSBK need ALL the manufacturers and different engine configurations. | ||
| Blake |
You say... giving them a 200cc advantage is BAD for their reputation and the sport. If they start winning with their extra displacement over the IL4s, then everybody (propably Ducati fans as well) will definately say "Well Jap bikes are better, and Ducati wins because of their 200cc advantage"" In contrast I would offer that... giving the 4-cylinder machines an advantage of two additional cylinders and eight additional valves is BAD for their reputation and the sport. If they start winning with their extra cylinders and valves over the Ducatis, then everybody (propably Japan Inc. fans as well) will definately say "Well Ducati bikes are better, and Japan Inc wins because of their additional 2-cylinders and 8-valves advantage" It's simply not at all valid to view displacement as the only ruler by which to guage the relative performance capabilities of competing engines. With all else being equal, physics dictates that a four cylinder engine can achieve significantly higher performance than a two cylinder engine of the same displacement. Of course maybe Ducati is initially asking for a 20% advantage and hoping to end up with 10%? | ||
| Jimidan |
I think that Ducati is asking for a 200cc advantage, and they want a 200cc advantage. It will allow them to detune to where they can have more durability and reliability, thus much less cost. It is only fair that race teams have to spend roughly equal money to race in the same series. Maybe someday, Buell will come out with a 1200 cc twin that can be used in Superbike racing. That would be cool. Go Ducati! jimidan | ||
| Rocketman |
They knew the rules going in, so why try to change them? Why build a bike that was illegal for racing and THEN try to get the rules committees to allow it? It's important to remember, Ducati has lost ground to the Japanese four in the sports bike war. Consequently, Ducati have gone to 1098cc to combat the Japanese sports bike manufacturers. Doing so warrants Ducati racing their 1098, which is 1198 as a race version (hence 1200 limit). So they didn't build an illegal race bike. They built a much needed street bike that had to have a capacity increase to remain as competitive at least as much as Ducati have previously been in the sales room. Now they need to race this same machine, as WSB racing is ALL about racing your street machine. It's also important to remember Ducati are reasoning that they are happy to have regulations to bring parity with the fours. Why this is seen by some as Ducati manipulating the series and having the rules serve Ducati's needs more than any other manufacturer is beyond me, given the suggestions Ducati have thus far put forward. How much more fair could Ducati be? I'm with Blake. As much as I like fours, I'm uninterested in seeing essentially four Japanese manufacturers playing WSB racing against each other. Without Ducati the series would be doomed. That said though, I doubt I've anything to worry about. Like Jose said, it's a done deal. Gotta be. Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on April 16, 2007) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
WSB racing is about racing special versions of motorcycles that we can buy and use for our riding on the street. If the 2 cylinders+8valves gives an advantage to the IL4 is like admiting that is a superior design, so we should go and buy an IL4! But I do not believe that. I think that a V-2 is the best suited engine for motorcycle use. But Ducati saying that they need an extra 200cc to keep up with the IL4 in SBK level, is like saying the V-2 is over. Since they switched to V-4 for MotoGP, thay might as well do it for SBK. No-one have mentioned traction control. The biggest advantage of the V-2 is its Big-Bang power delivery that prevents the rear wheel spinning and saves tyre life. Instead of Ducati insisting banning traction control from SBK and enjoy the benefit of the V-2, they were the first to use it. Is traction control cheap? No, it gave them an advantage over the other teams to dominate the SBK. Now Ducati wants a new advantage over the other teams. The extra 200cc. | ||
| M1combat |
"I think that a V-2 is the best suited engine for motorcycle use. " But that doesn't make it a fact. Swept volume is pretty well the king of race engines. RPM's or volume are the things that make high swept volume numbers. You only need the power band to be as wide as what's useable... so the IL4 with it's higher RPM capability has the advantage. The Ducati's need displacement for exactly the same reason that Buells do. Is that the same as saying that with a given displacement an IL4 race engine will be better than a V2? Pretty much  . | ||
| Trojan |
Ducati state, innocently of course, that the only reason they want the extra 200cc to save costs and limit tuning on their twins. That may well be the case initially, but I for one don't beleive that given the high tech tuning toys at their disposal that the won't use them. Remember it was Ducati who introduced expensive electronics packages, traction control, variable mapping etc into WSB in the first place, so then to moan about the cost is a little incongruos don't you think? If the extra 200cc doesn't do the job then of course we will see a return to MotoGP levels of tuning and electronics packages in order to keep the bike at the forefront of competitivness. Never forget, Ducati are in racing to win, not just take part. In 2 years time the 1200 twin will be as expensive to run as the current 999, and once again bristling with MotGP derived gagdetry. WSB should race bikes based PURELY on the ones that you and I can buy at the showroom, and with tuning mods that we can also buy as part of a race package from the same dealer. Stock forks (with tuning) and chassis, and most importantly, stock electronics with no traction control. Admittedly this would turn WSB into World Superstock, but so what? The playing field would be a lot more level than it is now and the racing just as close. The current WSB bikes are a long way removed from 'production' machines anyway. Allow Ducati to run the 1098 in this championship, along with KTM, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, Buell (although I won't hold my breath on that one) etc and the fans will be the winners, not just the top few factories. | ||
| Rocketman |
No Matt, I can't agree. As a fan I wish to see my street bike tuned to the bollocks and winning, or trying to. That's just one great reason to own a 916, for example. Going to a Superstock kind of series would in my opinion serve to slow the whole field down some, and take away a little of the shine. I'm all for it when the likes of Steve Hislop lapped Donnington on a WSB Ducati 998 faster than Rossi's first incarnation of the RCV211 Moto GP Honda did in the same season. I know how far fetched that sounds as a reason to want WSB to be a balls out fast nearly as Moto GP series, but that is what for me separates the two series and still keeps my interest in both. WSB is like a Moto GP version of street bike racing. Me, you, or anyone else could be riding a street bike version of a WSB without much in our way, and we'd know we are riding a serious piece of kit. That's not to take away anything from Superstock racing as that too is a series full of serious machinery, but it is not the pinnacle of street bike derived racer by today's standard. So then we get to Moto GP, which is like nothing I can ever hope to experience unless I'm a professional and very good racer, but riding a street version of a WSB racer gets me as close as I'm ever going to get. Yes this has been an argument based on fashion. How ridiculous is that!!!! But remember, a run of the mill Alfa Romeo, for example, is nothing like the thing they race in the domestic touring car series around the world, as the production car and the race car are far removed from one another. In WSB I'd have to argue that the margin of difference between street bike and race bike is not so far apart as it is for cars, and that is a major factor for me that makes the whole WSB thing gel between the street bike rider to the WSB racer. There is a somewhat tactile connection between 'us' and 'them'. Now you're gonna argue that connection could be closer if you were to have your way Matt, lol. Rocket | ||
| José_quiñones |
Ban Traction control? That horse left the barn. More and more new bikes will come with traction control standard in the coming years. Current AMA Superstock rules allow traction control if it came standard on the bike. Superstock rules is where the future of Superbike Racing is going. As mentioned, they are slower, and slower=safer to race organizers & track owners. That it makes the racing closer is icing on the cake for spectators, who notice a bunch of riders fighting for positions, not that they are all going 2 seconds slower per lap. Here in the US, the AMA will drop the Superstock class in 09, but the Superbike rules will become more like the current Superstock. That will leave the FormulaExtreme class a kind of "Superbike lites" class.
That's exactly what the Japanese did a few years ago when the AMA/WSBK rules were 750cc IL4's. Nobody except Suzuki sold the 750cc streetbikes that they raced with. Everyone else was selling 1000cc bikes and racing special 750cc unobtanium bikes. World Superbike/AMA is production based. If all the Japanese are building 1000cc IL4's, it makes sense that the rules be changed to let them race. Similarly, if Ducati sells a 1100cc Vtwin, and will come out with a 1200cc Vtwin in the future, along with KTM and others, then it makes sense tat the rules be changed to let them race. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Interview: Ducati's Claudio Domenicali I think they are being reasonable. | ||
| Blake |
"Remember it was Ducati who introduced expensive electronics packages, traction control, variable mapping etc into WSB in the first place, so then to moan about the cost is a little incongruos don't you think?" Once engineered, that technology isn't adding to the cost any more is it? I think the cost they are talking about are the recurring costs of engine parts, like the special cases and other go fast bits needed to get competitiv HP out of the veneralbe old desmo twin. And also, if they had to innovate the hight tech electrics and engine control, etc, to remain competitive, what does that portend for the issue? But now all that tech is already in use by all the top teams, so what is the issue; as long as the 1198 is limited to the same engine modifications, it sounds like it could be perfectly fair to me. Why isn't the Ducati 749R with its 25% advantage in displacement winning anything in World Supersport (most equivalent to AMA FX)? Has Ducati not put any effort into winning that class? | ||
| Jaimec |
Here's the thing: MotoGP recently decreased the size of their bikes for fears the bikes were getting too fast and too powerful. The bikes are still lapping as fast (if not faster) than they used to, but no longer have the same top speeds and acceleration they used to carry (they now carry fast average speed throughout the whole race because of higher cornering speeds). The irony is that now World Superbikes are hitting higher trap speeds than MotoGP bikes. At what point do these bikes become "too fast?" AMA no longer features Superbike in the Daytona 200 because the bikes are too powerful and eat their tires too quickly in the high banking. That's why they now feature Formula Extreme in the 200, and Superbike was relegated to a backup race (despite being the more prestigious class). Instead of allowing increased displacement for twins, how about decreasing the size of the fours (remember they used to race 750s) and make the tuning requirements the same for the 750 fours and the 1000 twins? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
F1 will ban traction control, at the 2008 season. The F1 cars lap faster but the populariry is droppin, because people want the best drivers to win, not the cars with the best electronic&computer package. I think bikes should follow the same direction, so that the rider's skills is more important than the machine. This way smaller teams like Kawasaki will have a chance winning. Look at James Toseland, this year his Honda has traction control, he has won at every race, and I think he will be the 2007 WSBK champion (Well done James). Last year with no traction control he had no chance to fight for wins and the championship. Last year he looked average, this year he is the best rider of the WSBK championship. So if Ducati really wants to make the SBK series more interesting and fair for all the teams and riders, they should try to do something with the rules for electronics and race its new 1098. Sometimes Ducati in the WSBK reminds me of Honda at Motogp, trying to change the rules, and I do not like that. | ||
| Trojan |
In WSB I'd have to argue that the margin of difference between street bike and race bike is not so far apart as it is for cars, Unfortunately the differences are far wider than you would think at first glance. WSB/BSB/AMA bikes all use top flight Works Ohlins forks (except of course Ten Kate, who use WP) that are not available to the man in the street unless you are seriously well heeled and well connected. The there is the rear shock (same arrangement), swingarms are normally not stock but exotic hand crafted items from KR engineering etc. Fuel tanks are alloy or carbon replicas of the originals. Bodywork is all full carbon and probably wouldn't even fit the equivalent street bike without some serious modifications. Radiators are different, wheels are different, brakes are different, footrests are different and exhaust is different. That takes care of just about everything outside of the motor, and then you start to throw serious money at it! The only thing that a showroom Fireblade/R1/999 shares with it's WSB counterpart is the name, the badge and the silhouette. Funnily enough though, Superstock bikes sharing much more with our bikes are now lapping almost as quickly as the full on Superbikes for far less cost. The racing is just as close and just as exciting for the fans, so everyone gains in the long run by adopting Superstock style tuning rules. The vast majority of UK based Superbike teams are in favour of adopting Superstock style engine tuning rules in WSB & BSB, and the AMA are already well on track to adopting a similar scheme. Ducati need to concentrate on keeping the 1098 competitive in Superstock format, and the rules will come to them, rather than whining about wanting even more capacity and alienating half of the grid. | ||
| Jaimec |
Matt, I had no idea the modifications were that extensive. Sounds like NASCAR here in the States. NASCAR stands for National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing, yet there is absolutely NOTHING "stock" about the cars in that series other than silhouette. Ironically, the street versions of the cars they race have technologically more advanced engines, as NASCAR still uses pushrod, OHV engines! | ||
| Rocketman |
Last year with no traction control he had no chance to fight for wins and the championship. Last year he looked average, this year he is the best rider of the WSBK championship. Jeez dude. Who were you watching? Toseland won several races last year and finished second in the championship. The man has come of age since he won the title two seasons ago. Sorry but you are utterly wrong when you say Toseland looked average last year. The fact he did so bloody well without traction control against those that had it says it all. Never mind the fact he's wanted by every Moto GP team in the field after last seasons campaign. What does it take? Perhaps a trip to the opticians? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I understand the differences Matt. That said, I didn't realise Superstock were that close in performance, but when I think about it, I remember Glenn Richards using a modified ZX10R at the beginning of last season, until Kawasaki got their full on racer sorted for him. And he was on fire on that showroom thing. Didn't he finished 6th at one BSB race on the stocker? I like your thinking in your last post. That could work for me as a fan. Thanks for the insight. Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
rocket, I just came back from the optician and he said my eyes are OK. Thanks for your concern. I suggest you go to the eye-doctor and check your eyes for super-patriotism biased vision. The fact Toseland had a couple of wins last year and finished 2nd does not mean his performance was good. In fact, he DID look average last year, for me. In your eyes he might look better than Valentino Rossi. I do not care..... YOU said many times that Nicky Hayden looked average last year, but on the other hand he had a couple of wins and he is the 2006 champion. So according to your thinking about Toseland, Nicky is a TOP rider. So what is it going to be for you ???? You think he is a TOP or AVERAGE rider? Also you accuse Americans that say Nicky is a top rider, they are being extra-patriotic. You are actually much worse than the people you accuse.... So think first, before you type........ | ||
| Jaimec |
As a disinterested third party... I'd say second place is a DAMNED good finish, and far above "average." Unless, of course, you subscribe to the Earnhardt philosophy of "Second place is just the first loser..." | ||
| Trojan |
It would appear that the other WSB teams have suddenly caved in to Ducati pressure and agreed to have 1200cc Twins in the series next year after all (according the this week's MCN that is)! I haven't had time to read the whole article yet, but it appears that 1200cc Twins will have a weight penalty applied to keep them on par with the 1000cc fours. That will do wonders for the watching public, who of course won't have a bloody clue what is going on! If a 1200cc Twin needs to be ballasted to keep some parity, why not just let the 1100 twins (1098)race in the first place? On the subject of James Toseland, I think he is a much better rider than he is given credit for, and that has been the case right through his career. He was accused of cheating in the CB500 cup when he first started, simply because he was so much faster than everyone else. Then when he moved to Ducati he was accused of being a spoiled rich kid who didn't deserve the ride, and even now he is overlooked despite being the best Superbike rider in the world at the moment. If Toseland was riding Bayliss's bike you wouldn't have seen him for dust last year or this year. I really hope that Honda do the right thing and move him up to MotoGP next year. In fact I think that a British passport may be the thing to have in MotoGP very soon, with some very exciting young talent coming through now. Not just Toseland, but Johnny Rea, Leon Camier, Leon Haslam, Eugene Laverty, Danny Webb and of course Chaz Davies Move over Johnny Foreigner, the Brits are back  | ||
| Davegess |
From what I have seen of Toseland (just on the TV) he is certainly one of the very top men. | ||
| Trojan |
It would appear that the other WSB teams have suddenly caved in to Ducati pressure and agreed to have 1200cc Twins in the series next year after all (according the this week's MCN that is)! I may have misread this one at first. What actually appears to have happened is that the organisers have caved in to Ducati, and the other teams can like it or lump it. Nothing like democracy at work is there? Whilst on the subject of Italian motorcycle manufacturers, here is another scurulous rumour (unfortunately it appears to be more than rumour). The investment house GeVi, having bought MV from Proton, took on debts of £64 Million and also pumped a further £10 million into the company, has had enough and lost patience with MV Agusta. It now appears to have turned off the financial taps, leaving MV unable to pay staff or suppliers (a familiar situation at MV). Gevi is also cutting it's losses by disposing of large chunks of the MV business. Negotiations are ongoing with BMW to sell them the Husqvarna brand (although MV only owns the licence to the Husky name, which is actually owned by Electrolux). Cagiva looks like it will be sold lock stock and barrel to Indian bike and scooter manufacturer Kinetic. There are already rumours that the core MV brand could be sold on to Ducati, with money coming from Benetton and Bonomi. Doncha just love Italian politics The one good point is that Kinetic plan to launch a 650cc Cagiva Mito powered by the Korean Hyosung engine housed in the Mito 125 chassis. Now that will be a cracking little bike if they can get the quality control right straight away | ||
| Rocketman |
Vag, I was expecting you to say just that. I nearly typed in that I'm not a Toseland 'dyed in the wool' fan as such, but I was rushing out to work this morning and didn't waste my time. I rather hoped you'd have been wise enough to see the stupidity of your Toesland observations once you'd read my post. So here goes. I don't recall ever saying Hayden looked or was average (ever). In fact I said on a number of occasions, I saw him as very fast, if my memory serves. But you know, you're welcome to search the archives and prove me wrong. I have voiced my reservations about Hayden's world championship road to glory. But hey, he won it in the end and I was as chuffed as anybody when he did. Who wouldn't have been. As for patriotism. Well ok, I admit I'm a little patriotic when it comes to things petrol headed that involves us Brit's. Who could blame me though, surrounded by a million BadWeB Yanks who breathe patriotism every minute of the day  Rocket | ||
| Blake |
And not just any old Brit either eh mate? Toseland is a genuine Yorkshireman! You gotta be proud and rightly so, as am I of local boys Hayden, Edwards, and Spies. I agree with Matt, Toseland is top notch and Ducati screwed the pooch with him big time. When he gets off the Honda, I'll be rooting for Toseland big time. I also agree, why in the heck go 1200cc with a weight penalty when you could stay at the production 1098cc. Sorry to hear about MV.  Them four tailpipes sure are neato lookin'. | ||
| Rocketman |
Ducati raced the first 916 in WSB at 996cc. The Proddy version was sold as the 916SPS. The 916 genre eventually finished up as a 998 running 999cc, which was the Testa motor, eventually finding its way into the 999 models. The 1098, actually 1099cc, won't be competitive in WSB under current regulations. Or it won't be for long if it first is. That's why 1200cc. Leeway for development. Toesland, he's a Sheffield boy, which is South Yorkshire. I guess he just qualifies as a Northerner then, lol. Rocket |
