| Author |
Message |
    
No_rice
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 11:54 am: | 
|
wow, thats a nice pic on your website, wonder where i have seen that before? i think kill boy took that. wonder if new12r has seen that pic of himself on there yet?
http://www.tigerbythetail.de/ |
Tigerbythetail
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 12:15 pm: |
|
hi...............I named the source of the pic as follows (in German).....
it says.........cool american guy who posted this photo in the american Buell forum.........and I quoted one of my best mates ".......90% of the performance anyway depends on the guy who sits on top........Tom Pfeffer 2006"....
For me this is the most beautiful pic of somebody riding a buell I know...........yes the man (new12r) is really cool.......the way he "surfes" that corner is superb........he looks so relaxed
tiger |
No_rice
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 01:03 pm: |
|
i know, the timing couldnt have been better on that pic |
Liquorbox
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:22 pm: |
|
I'll take one!
Please give me ordering Info?
Thanks |
Kdan
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:31 pm: |
|
I opened my airbox using the American Sport Bike kit. I then had nowhere to send the lines. I routed 'em under the oil cooler and through a little K&N filter on the end to prevent intrusion. This smears the front of my bike with snot. It reminds me of my little brother, who was also always smeared with snot when he was young. If I got a catch can, I wouldn't be reminded of my little brother. Some guys never had a snotty little brother. Hence the catch can. What's the big deal? |
Tigerbythetail
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:59 pm: |
|
hi..........Kdan.....excellent description for a self inflicted problem.......why did you mess up the original design?........the power can be gained without rerouting the breathers. Leave the breather hoses where they are and you do not have to waste time fitting, emptying a can that this bike needs like a hole in the primary cover........there is no proof for all these theories about the "bad stuff coming out of the brethers"...........only proof I got is what Buell has designed and that almost nobody on the continent bothers to fit a catch can.......and certainly none my mates is using it and most of them are capable to ride the wheels off this bike........I love technology and I have been able to build a number of nice solutions for the XB myself.....I have no problem acknowledging when somebody has build interesting bits for the XB..........it just strikes me that in one country things are done so differently..........and it still is the same bike...........
tiger |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:43 pm: |
|
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_breathervalves .shtml |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:52 pm: |
|
As you can see, the only thing that really mattered was whether or not the blow-by was being recycled back into the engine. Recycling the blow-by, the way the factory does, costed a little power over a wide range.
It sounds like you get a little more power if you don't let the bike inhale its own blow..... |
Mortarmanmike120
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:56 pm: |
|
Hey Tiger,
Let me start by saying I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm having a problem following your logic.
Do you concede that crap comes out of the breather lines?
a) No - then a catchcan is useless.
b) Yes - then that crap is going into the injection.
Does you think that crap makes any difference?
a) No - then a catchcan is useless
b) Yes - then rerouting the breather lines is probably best.
Options for rerouting breather lines:
a) Leave'm be and get crap in injection
b) Route'm to the enviornment
c) Route'm into a catchcan.
only proof I got is what Buell has designed and that almost nobody on the continent bothers to fit a catch can.......
Buell does NOT design the best solution.
Buell DOES design the best solution that will fit the requirements of beurocratic enviornmental organizations like the EPA.
The EPA wants you to incinerate the crap in your engine. I'd rather not.
and that almost nobody on the continent bothers to fit a catch can.......
Most Iraqi's don't bother to use toilet paper, that doesn't mean I won't.
That last was not a flame, only that just because group A does something, group B should do likewise. |
Jerseyguy
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:11 pm: |
|
COPIED FROM THE ABOVE WEB PAGE:
"As you can see, the only thing that really mattered was whether or not the blow-by was being recycled back into the engine. Recycling the blow-by, the way the factory does, costed a little power over a wide range. Other than that, the motor largely ignored what I was doing with the breathers, at least from a power point of view."
This testing was done on some tubers and a Harley by NRHS. Take it for what it's worth. I like draining out the puke.
They should be ready for shipment next week. |
Ftd
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:34 pm: |
|
Do you rally want this smooge going back into your engine?
|
Tigerbythetail
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 06:02 pm: |
|
hi........... this stuff is initially vapor and there is no problem for it to go into the air intake. It simply burns up.
In 2006 an XB12 has been extensively tested by the most read motorcycle magazine in Germany for 50.000 km. The only recommendation they made is that it is probably worth changing the pistons, but that even these where still OK. They attested the engine good quality workmanship. No mention of the issue celebrated here. This bike was pushed hard on the road and the track. Gather these guys also do not have a clou. The by the way to the engine completely apart and measured every bit
Anyway the quoted test from NHRS was as you say a sportster engine test. As I happen to be quite familiar with the XB engine now. There is a profound difference with regards to how the crankcase is vented between these two types of engine. And therefore the "puke" test does not apply to the XB to this extent if at all.
You are absolutely right mentioning A & B. It is a good example for that people do things differently.
So again have fun tending your tins.
tiger |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 11:21 am: |
|
Tiger,
I've done the dyno testing on an XB, and I don't agree with what you've written at all.
See http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/171 43/164053.html?1134191408
Any time you displace cold oxygen rich air in the intake charge with hot oxygen depleted oil mist and water/steam laden air, you're going to lose power. Vapor, liquid, I don't care. It is still displaces volume of burnable intake charge. The bigger the burnable intake charge (in the correct ratio of mass O2/Mass fuel), the higher the power potential of the engine. The piston down stroke pulls a certain volume of stuff into the cylinder. The more of that stuff that is burnable O2 and fuel, the more power the engine will produce, period. The oil in the blowby burns as you say, but not with any power producing potential. It isn't well atomized, it doesn't burn at the same rate as gasoline vapor. And it is responsible for a fair amount of carbon deposits on valves and pistons, which can be a source of detonation. When done correctly, water in the intake charge can be used to increase power, but only because it can be used to cool the intake charge and make it more dense. There is no power potential in the drops of hot water and steam that come from blowby.
The piston ring blowby is the stuff displacing intake charge. You can talk all day long about the path that blowby takes to get from below the pistons into the intake, but it doesn't matter. The blowby that goes past the piston rings must escape the crankcase or it will pressurize the crankcase to the detriment of the gaskets and seals. The larger the blowby volume, the bigger effect it has on the power the engine will produce, IF it is routed into the intake.
Near as can tell, the change to the XB engine on the PATH for that blowby to the top (i.e., reed valve, third hole into pushrod tube passages) exists to solve the oil drain back problem that the XL design has at higher RPMs. The oil drain back passages get to do their intended function with less blowby in their way with the XB design. But that doesn't change the amount of blowby, ring seal is responsible for that. The testing that Aaron (NRHS) did is still valid and applicable to the XB design.
Pollution control laws mandate that the blowby is routed into the intake. Noise requirements, coupled with a fair amount of valve overlap, force Buell to do things with the airbox configuration that aren't optimized for power. But they must comply or they can't sell motorcycles for use on the street. They are some smart folks at Buell. They do a lot of clever things to mitigate those power losses. But don't go representing those designs as optimized for max power, they are compromised in that regard.
You won't see the stock configuration airbox on an XBRR, and you won't see the breathers routed into the intake either.
I don't expect to convince you otherwise, you've already done YOUR dyno test. But others reading this might actually believe the stuff you're writing is fact. I don't buy it.
BTW, Mike Norris sold to A.S.B the design for the original catch can that was marketed by both Drummer and A.S.B, and we have a big stack of them at the anodizers as well. They're just plain black, we don't engrave them, I'm not a big fan of turning bikes into rolling billboards. Marketing isn't my strong suit, I guess.
Al |
Hogs
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 11:34 am: |
|
Al, GOT MY VOTE...WELL SAID..! |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 12:22 pm: |
|
I fouled a plug on my bike when it was totally stock. I can't be certain it was the spooge that caused it, but I haven't fouled another one in the 30,000 miles since I fabricated a catch-can. I honestly can't feel any power improvement, but the mod is supposed to let another horse in the pasture.
Tigerbythetail is fighting windmills here, but I think the smugness of his replies are because of translation difficulties from German to English. Either that, or he's one smug bastard.
That last part won't translate well... |
Warbaby
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Al said it nicely (others were doubtlessly thinking it).
Regardless of any rationale used to the contrary, I want NOTHING but the proper amounts of fuel and air in my combustion chambers. Now, excuse me while I go...play with my tin. |
Xbrad9r
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 01:06 pm: |
|
as far as performance goes, i think this is an easy example of why you gain hp ( really it would be stopping the loss that normally happens instead, but anyway)
take a carbuerated car to a dyno and let her roll...then after the appropriate cool down period so that everyhting would be the same, put same car back on the dyno with the hood raised and the stand there with a filled with the catch can "droppings" and every few seconds give a little squirt into the carb and see how the car skips a beat of drops off just a touch...
brad |
Tunes
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 01:55 pm: |
|
I was waiting for Al to say what I was thinking (and understood) but was unable to put into words. Thank you, Al!!!! |
Tigerbythetail
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 02:56 pm: |
|
hi............the question was:
1. is the blowby stuff harmful the engine.
Answer: it aint.
2. How much power do you loose when you let it burn up?
Answer: we don,t know for the XB
3. Fact: There is a big difference in how the crank case is vented between the Sportster and XB engine.
Here we agree.
4. Have you measured the volume of blow by by both engines.
Answer: I havent and how about you ?
So I am afraid with all respect its all bit hearsay.
Does it cost 10 BHP............probaly not.......so why muck about?
tiger |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 03:14 pm: |
|
"why muck about?"
Because every little bit helps. |
Jerseyguy
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:43 am: |
|
The catch cans started shipping today. I think I've emailed all of those who expressed interest in purchasing one. If I missed you, please PM me. Thanks
Steve |
Sgthigg
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:56 am: |
|
Wow I am glad to see this improvement. I sent KD fab an email addressing this issue with the old style catch can. KD fab is good to go in all theyre products. I highly recommend them. |
|
