| Author | Message | ||
     44mag2 |
I got my Uly back from the shop last week. The shop has the bike for about 1 month so they could work with Buell to find the cause of the ping. After a month of testing, and close contact with Buell, the found that the compression was high. The compression was measured at 170. The spec in the Uly manual is 120. This would cause the pinging. There was some carbon build up in the combustion chamber, but not too much. The cause of the high compression was not definitively determined, but it was thought that the carbon may have contributed to the high compression, but they were not sure. The shop at Paradise Harley-Davidson rebuilt the engine with hopes that the pinging problem will be resolved. I also had an oil consumption problem that should now be solved. So ... the evidence says that some of the Uly's (at least mine) might have higher that expected compression, which could cause a ping. The good thing is that the ping should go away as the engine wears, since the compression will decrease. Note that both Paradise Harley Davidson in Portland Oregon and Buell Customer service were outstanding. They both went WAY beyond what ANY other motor company would do to solve my problem. I am a loyal Buell customer for life. Now I need to break my engine in again, and I will let you know if the ping returns. | ||
| Aeholton |
Nice to hear about a good outcome. Please keep us posted on your progress. By the way, how many miles did you have on your motor before the rebuild? | ||
| Davo |
44mag Great news! I have not pulled mine down yet but I will check my compression numbers next week and post the numbers. I have been extremely busy lately and have not had time to do much wrenching. I wrote to Buell about a month ago and asked them about compression. No word yet. I know that you are happy that they found the problem. Have a Happy Holiday! | ||
| Dano_12s |
Maybe XB9 pistons were installed by mistake.Not sure what compression would be. | ||
| Teeps |
I think this discussion might be important too... Jim_sb Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 11:44 pm: VERY interesting!!! Here's a question for you Ulysses owners... On the 1st start of the day with a fully charged battery does your Uly hesitate on the first compression stroke after you thumb the starter button? Is that something that would happen if your compression is a bit higher than normal? Mine hesitates, but always pulls through then starts. Yes, I have the ping issue. Just curious... Jim in Santa Barbara Teeps Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 10:37 am: Jim sb, My Ulysses starts in the same manner as you describe. After it's warmed up, though, it starts without that hesitation the rest of the day. The '07 ECM flash did not change this characteristic either. The last time I reset the TPS I noticed the ignition timing was +34Degs at startup. And as the engine warmed up it retarded to near zero when at operating temp. | ||
| Murraebueller |
If you had an oil consumption issue with excessive carbon build up in the combustion chambers I suppose that could add up to higher than normal compression and pumping pressure. I have both an '06 Uly with 12,500 miles and a '00 S3 with a modified motor that has 11:1 static compression ratio and I've never had pinging or oil consumption issues with either bike. No surging either. Both run on 91 octane pump gas that is non-oxygenated and ethanol free. Glad you're figuring out your problem. Please keep us informed of the progress. Merry Christmas Murrae | ||
| Jim_sb |
My bike has been pinging since early on; I don't think the combustion chamber could have loaded up with deposits that quickly to significantly effect compression. To be very specific, the bike does not ping when it is cold and ridden in "cruiser" mode (which is how I ride it until it is warmed up). Once warm the bike does not ping in "cruiser" mode, but it does ping in mildly aggressive acceleration mode (let's guesstimate 2/3rds throttle). However, if I go to WOT max. acceleration mode the pinging stops. Unfortunately due to the bike's tendency to wheelie and/or accelerate rapidly in WOT mode I can't always give it that much stick. For example when the CHP is behind me pulling away from a stop light. <g> Anyone else notice this pattern re the ping? Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Davo |
Dano-12s, I thought the same thing, 984 heads would increase the ratio. When I pull mine down I will make book on the problem. I will try to get some different heads to compare the numbers. Jim_sb, You are on target as well with your observation. When you crack the throttle at cruise your timing drops back from the high 50's to the 40's and lower! The 3K surge is timing as high as 62 degrees. If the compression is higher than 11:1 then the engine will ping at the north pole in January. | ||
| Nutsosane |
Jim, I'm experiencing the same throttle-ping reaction. Second gear, 3000 rpms: roll on the throttle and there is the ever present ping. This occurs once the bike is warmed up; outside air temps do not affect this reaction. NUTS | ||
| Davo |
Nutsosane, Write to Buell. They think it is an isolated problem and claim they have not had many bikes with a pinging problem. During the heat of the summer there were about a dozen Badwebers with severe pinging as far away as Australia and it was winter there. I think it is more wide spread than they realize. Put some HD fuel additive in and if the ping is reduced then the only fix is to retard the timing. If not then you might have an intake leak. I have not had any significant side effects by retarding my timing about 7.5 degrees. There is a little loss of performance but the pinging will stop. Retard the ignition, reduce the compression and/or replace the intake gaskets. | ||
| Nutsosane |
Davo, thanks for the advice. I am using the winter to give my dealer a chance to "get it right" the first time; otherwise I'll be heading for one that can. With talk of bad gaskets, poor timing, excessive compression etc... I think we have yet to find "the cure." I am vehemently against bickering with Buell as to who screwed up my new bike. Therefore the burden is upon me to find a dealer who will work with me and BMC to get this fixed. NUTS | ||
| Murraebueller |
We had some bikes early on that had the timing set incorrectly from the factory. It's a quick check with a digital tech and the dealer you bought it from should be able to check it/reset it for no charge. The bikes normally would not be ridden hard enough after setup to show the problem. We've been checking the timing during the setups and haven't seen the problem since late '06 production. The ones we fixed we took care of at the 1000 mile service. I'm assuming that the dealer that's working on your bike checked the timing. Just a thought that drifted up out of the brain pan as I was reading the posts. Murrae | ||
| 44mag2 |
My Uly had 5000 miles. The carbon build up was not excessive. It would be useful for everybody to have the compression measured next time the bike is in the shop. It would be useful to correlate pinging bikes with high compression to prove that this is really the cause of the problem. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Jim_sb, same as mine. Pinged from Day 1/ Mile 1. Once warmed up, even with Ventura County CA cooler weather, rollons under 4k rpm ping. Same deal, twist it quickly to about 3/4 throttle and here comes the rattle. Can't speak to WOT since I don't think in 7 months I've ever twisted it to the stops since I'm a wuss and don't like wheelies...  Since I bought the bike new I've tried to learn to ride around this condition, but why should I have to? Mine also (often) runs into a compression block when starting, mostly when hot. First thumb results in a halted momentary rotation, let up, thumb again, then it'll spin to start. When it does pass the halt occasionally it always fires with a PING. This scenario occurs even in Dec temps, but more frequently this past summer. Personally I would find it amazing to find out of spec or wrong parts in my bike in this day and age. | ||
| Davo |
Xbimmer, Your symptoms indicate high compression and/or excessive advance. The difference between the 12 and the 9 is stroke. In order to get similar compression ratio you need to tighter head on the 9. If that head was put on a 12 then the compression ratio would go up roughly a minimum of 1 point. 11.5 to 1 would cause problems with todays pump gas. This is pure speculation, but after all of the testing I have done and until I can pull the engine down all I can do is speculate. It has to be compression or early timing. (Message edited by davo on December 22, 2006) (Message edited by davo on December 22, 2006) | ||
| Paul56 |
Jim_sb, mine's the same as yours. Compression stalls the starter when cold especially. Much less so when warm. The ping is much more pronounced when air temp is warm, but will still do it mildly at 30 degrees F. 11 months, 17k miles. | ||
| Orangeulius |
My 06 has pinged excessively since I got it in March 06. It's worse when it's hot and especially bad under load. When I ride 2 up with my wife it can be embarrassing to pull away from a stop on a small hill. It's not too bad right now with cooler temps. I never thought about the compression issue but I have experienced the starting problem. The compression issue with my compromised battery/electrical system probably only made my battery fail that much sooner. Great thread. Happy holiday everyone. | ||
| Pete_denzer |
Mechanic at local dealership said all Buells and late-model Sporties make more mechanical clatter due to higher compression and hotter cams, said not to worry about it. As the bike has a two-year warranty and seems to be running fine, I won't worry. Also, I think the Buell XBs may have unique acoustics due to the lack of a true gas tank over the valve covers, which would insulate the rider from a fair amount of noise. You want to hear a quiet Sporty? Take a listen to a pre-Evo ironhead engine, very quiet even with solid lifters. | ||
| Nutsosane |
Jim-sb, I just wanted to publicly thank you for clearly stating your bikes issues. This seems to have united several of us with the same symptoms. No whinging or bellyaching; just Buellers out to solve this issue. NUTS | ||
| Teeps |
Pete_denzer Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 Mechanic at local dealership said all Buells and late-model Sporties make more mechanical clatter due to higher compression and hotter cams, said not to worry about it. There's a huge difference between mechanical chatter (fin ringing and lifter chatter) and pining... My Ulysses has both, though, the pining noise is kind of fickled, as it presents itself intermittently. Mostly after a short (30min or less) hot soak restart. (Of course, could be it pings all the time an I just don't hear it.) | ||
| Murraebueller |
Some info- the shop manual says 120 psi or more cylinder pressure after 5 cranks with a fully warmed up motor and closed throttle body. Notice the OR MORE. The techs I spoke with here said that they would expect 140-150psi as average. I say again- go back to the dealer you bought the bike from and have the timing checked with a digital tech. We've cured pinging/starting issues this way in the past. The bikes require exact timing to factory spec. The other tech is also correct-the XBs make more mechanical noise. This does not include pinging. I'm also assuming that you;ve all checked your primary chains? Not trying to be a wise acre, just offer the information I have. Merry Christmas to all. Ride safe. Murrae | ||
| Davo |
Murraebueller, Merry Christmas! Did you ask them where the dynamic timing should be when the ECM advance is at zero? | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- I didn't, but the only way I know of really setting timing properly the dynamic "old school"way is to see the mark in the center of the window when the CPS goes to 5 volts. I've been told over and over by the tech at buell factory how sensitive the bikes are to "correct" timing. I know it's true with our bikes, especially the hot rod S3. Merry Christmas and I guess now it's Happy New Year. Stay sober if you're diving or riding! Murae | ||
| 44mag2 |
FYI - I also noticed that the manual says 120 OR MORE. I specifically asked the question "what is too high"? I did not get a specific answer, but the Buell factory did specifically say that mine is too high(one of my cylinders was 160ish and the other was 170). The dealer said that the upper range should be around 150. They did not re-measure the compression after the re-build because it would be senseless until the engine is broken in. | ||
| Davo |
Murraebueller, The Buell techs are lost on this issue. They stand by the idea that there is nothing wrong with their product. They use a proprietary system to cover their inadequacies. It is clear after reading the posts on this thread that they do have at least an isolated tuning problem. Pinging is the result of poor tuning. In order to keep some of these bikes from pinging you must retard the timing almost 10 degrees! There is something wrong! | ||
| Murraebueller |
Customer Service is always going to follow whatever policy they have to due to liability. The tech service folks will only talk to someone who works for a dealer. If the compression/cylinder pressure is in spec and the timing is set properly, there is a problem, most likely in the ECM. We have replaced one already. I have found no advantage to changing timing with a properly operating system. I suggest again: go to a dealer and have them check the timing. Make sure the correct download is in the ECM. If you still have a problem, find a different ECM and install it and see if the problem goes away. We keep an ECM in stock. All of this is covered by warranty. The other thing I'll say is that Buell has excellent engineering standards and they always stand behind the product. This issue is why we have warranties in the first place. Yes, things are proprietary and yes things have to meet EPA standards and yes the manufacturing failure rate averages 3/4 of 1 percent in the US. If you can't get satisfaction from your dealer, bring it to me- we don't give up till it's fixed. Murrae | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- I don't mean to be rude. There is definitely something wrong- none of our bikes ping and at 7500 feet above sea level they run very lean. Keep it simple- check the cylinder pressure- if it's OK then check the timing and any other mechanical factor that could cause the problem- all OK? Change the ECM- they can be out of spec and not cause an engine light. Hope you find it- The pinging at partial throttle makes me think it's the ECM or a problem with the injectors- I've seen both. Happy New Year. Murrae | ||
| Roc |
Tech services at Buell was very helpful in pursuing a solution with Steve’s, 44mag2’s, pinging bike. If the problem returns with the hot weather I have no doubt that Buell will continue to work with Steve and us. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Roc is correct. Buell and Paradise Harley Davidson were very helpful. Paradise spent a month working with Buell looking at every portion of the bike. The good thing is that they found a likely culprit (the high compression). Maybe the problem lies elsewhere, however, Buell deserves credit for making a significant effort to solve the the problem. They are not ignoring the issue. Let's wait and see if my bike pings when the warm weather returns. In the mean time, if your bike pings, get a compression check to help validate this theory. | ||
| Roc |
Our thought was higher compression due to carbon build up on the pistons. We think that the carbon was probably retaining heat, in particular around the shoulder of the raised nipple in the center of the piston, as well. The ambient temperature dropped about 40 to 50 degrees from the time Steve was having trouble and when he was willing to get off the bike and let us have it, hey the man likes to ride. As a result I can’t say that the fix has been thoroughly tested. If he has problems again Buell will work with us for a fix, they are committed to the bikes. I am a service writer at the dealership here and I am involved in all of the dealerships warranty work. We have had 3 XB’s that I have heard ping under normal riding, including Steve’s and one that was not initially set up correctly by another dealer – an SS. I have lugged the crap out of my XB9, 2nd gear take off from stop after a tiring day of riding, and caused it to ping. I have heard other Buells ping as well, but only as a result of being lugged. If your bike pings take it to your dealer and have them fix it, just like you would if your had any other problems with your new bike. The XB’s give their owners very little trouble and the Buell warranty is excellent. |
