| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Blake, I think the quote you have used is from Jezza regarding the new Ilmor? The big difference between the Ilmor and the RR projects is that Ilmor acknowledge that this will be a 4 year learning curve and have a plan in place to develop the bike in MotoGP until 2010 at least. I'm sure we won't see them disappear after one season. | ||
| Rocketman |
..............especially so given Ilmor have succeeded in winning every discipline they've entered thus far. Rocket | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I just think it's stupid that a company that is part of a Billion Dollar Corporation would need money donated from individuals to go racing. Not putting down the effort of the the badwebbers doing this, just can't understand the point. It will never amount to the the dollars needed. I would be embarrassed if I were Buell and H-D. | ||
| Reepicheep |
No you wouldn't, you would be loud, proud, and barely staying in business.  (*cough*ducatti*cough*) I appreciate the heritage that HD brings to Buell, and the expertise they bring in various areas having spent a very long time with some very talented people building some very good bikes. I heard a 1918 Harley run at Wheels Through Time. As soon as it fired up, my brain said "Wow! That would actually be a fairly fun ride!". It looked like a very cool little bike. But I want Buell in control of Buell bikes and Buell racing. Not Harley. Harley makes great Harleys, Buell makes great Buells, I am glad they are finding opportunities to help each other where they can, but am glad they both feel the need to be as separate as possible as well. I work in "big business" and am involved (read: A Victim Of) "other peoples money" for projects I help run. The money *always* comes with strings. | ||
| Jscott |
"No you wouldn't, you would be loud, proud, and barely staying in business." I am constantly amazed by Ducati. For not having a stable business model, they are still able to be heavily involved in almost every race series worldwide and can turn out models that the world craves for (*cough*1098/HyperMotard*cough*). How do they do it? When/If the time comes that they cannot participate due to funding, do you think that their fans would be willing to help fund a race team? I bet they would, because they have shown such dedication to the world of racing. Hopefully Buell will experience a year in 07 like Ducati has had in 06. (Message edited by JScott on December 20, 2006) | ||
| Bomber |
JScott -- Ducati does it by continually running in the red, and finding other people to pay the bills -- a bit like a governmental agency, only a lot more entertaining ;-} I'd LOVE to see Buell racing, and successfully -- if I had to choose between a kick-ass race effort and good street bikes (and I do, given their revenue stream), I'd choose buyable products, every time but that's just me | ||
| Court |
>>>>only a lot more entertaining And never a day without a performance. My favorites, recently, were the walk-out when management announced they were laying 100 folks off due to an accumulation of inventory that dealers couldn't sell and ran out of room to store. Just as you think it can't get any better, the double talk starts . . . trying to explain the financial reporting non-compliance snafu. I dig the bikes, but I don't have the personal capacity to live the "rob peter to pay paul" business model. For the ultimate in entertainment, check out last years financials. . . just as you think they made a buck you find out if was a "capital infusion" that was promptly seized for past due taxes. . . much of the entertainment would pale were it not for the world's greatest supporting cast, the Italian government. | ||
| Davegess |
Ducati is indeed entertaining. I love the bikes. I love the racing success. They are very good at both. They are not good at making money however. They have been very good at extracting cash from investors, banks and the Italian government. I hope that Buell someday has the same level of racing success Ducati has had, I just hope they don't follow the same path to get there. That last is very tongue in cheek because Buell is treading a far different path. I can't imagine Erik being very happy if suppliers did not get paid nor if they laid off workers. There are undoubtedly some very exciting things coming for Buell. I don't know what they are nor when they will show up but based on history they will be cool. I'm also with Reep, the more Buell can stand alone the better off it is. Ya don't want HD calling the shots by cutting funding, they can't do that if you are making money. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I can't imagine Erik being very happy if suppliers did not get paid nor if they laid off workers. Erik has, on a myriad of prior occasions, had the opportunity to "cut a corner" by taking either of these shortcuts. His track record, and I know I'm telling you nothing you don't know, pretty well proves that he'd go sell Tupperware before he'd take either of those options. In the days Erik was eating boiled dandelions from the field behind the house, suppliers and employees were being paid and treated right. It's a matter of principle from which he will, under no circumstances waiver. Makes him not only predictable, but a pleasure. Court | ||
| Blake |
Ducati is able to race because of their amazing history which brings BIG sponsorship to most any major racing effort they undertake. Matt, I don't accept the double standard. A new bike always requires significant development. Folks who appreciate racing know this. The general public (JScot et al) may not, but we certainly do. I recall Jeremy making similar comments about the Buell. Don't you? The double standard is strange. Hey, how about Moto Czyz? I'll be giving them the same thoughtful consideration concerning their race bike development as I give Buell and Ilmor. Fair, no? As long as XBRRs are out racing and competing, Buell Racing will be developing the bike. Yes? | ||
| Blake |
Meant to confirm that you accurately identified the quote. No prize for you though. We expect nothing less from Adrenaline Moto.  | ||
| Jscott |
There are 2 T's in my name!  | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Seeing that H-D owns Buell, I believe they could cut funding at any moment and for any reason for ANYTHING Buell does. H-D needs to open their eyes and see the benefits strongly out way the risks. That I do believe. Success won't come over night. But it will come with experience and will. | ||
| Daves |
and $$$$$$$$ | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Exactly Dave! And h-D has a hell of a lot more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ than we do! Just seems lame that they won't invest the money. People here are willing to try and H-D would be the main beneficiary if it was to work. Sure they have the most to loss if they put out the money, but they also have the most to gain. | ||
| Daves |
I agree | ||
| Buell920 |
here's my .02 I truely believe Buell MC is the one holding back here. If you look at Erik and the last 20 some years with HD and the things he has had input/say or credit in, I would venture to say he would be the first person HD would give money to for a cause he believed in. Erik has proven to us, them, that he can produce results. I like to believe in my hart that BMC is not about beating the other guy but just passing them by when the time is right. dependability and longevity drive purchase power. (Message edited by buell920 on December 20, 2006) | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, I don't accept the double standard. A new bike always requires significant development. Folks who appreciate racing know this. The general public (JScot et al) may not, but we certainly do. I recall Jeremy making similar comments about the Buell. Don't you? The double standard is strange. Hey, how about Moto Czyz? I'll be giving them the same thoughtful consideration concerning their race bike development as I give Buell and Ilmor. Fair, no? I am not applying double standards here, although there are certainly some very different standards evidenced by the 3 manufacturers that you mention. Buell launched the XBRR last year with a huge publicity fanfare to the assembled world press. Erik gave interviews to just about every motorcycling publication worldwide with the 'We're Back!' speech, and the attendant press releases stated that the XBRR was designed specifically to compete in US Formula Extreme and would give privateers the opportunity to purchase a competitive Formula Extreme bike for US$30,000. If they thought it needed more than one season of development why did they put the bike on sale right away to prospective customers? If I had bought one at the start of last year I would be more than pissed off now when they say it needs a lot more development! No mention was made of a 'development year' at the launch, in fact it was hinted that they expected the bike to win at Daytona first time out! Now Buell are not going to race in FX, and there are no privateer or even dealer teams taking part in FX either. In the absence of any press release from Buell about this people will draw their own conclusions: Buell found the competition a lot harder and more expensive than they expected, and following a dismal season decided to pack up and go home. This may or may not be thee truth, but as I say, the public will draw their own conclusions, and sometimes facts have very little to do with them. I know it takes time to develop a race bike, and was very surprised when the XBRR was launched with such public hoohah and confidence from the factory. Given their statements at the launch it was almost inevitable that the bike would not live up to expectations. Now we are told, 'Never mind, just you wait till you see what is coming soon'. Saying the the bike will get developed in CCS or ASRA is not going to make it a competitive FX bike (with no disrespect to the guys that race in these classes). That is like trying to develop an F1 car at a go kart race. All the time that Buell spend 'developing' the XBRR the FX opposition is getting better and better. Do you think that Yamaha & Honda (not to mention Ducati) have stood still over the winter? Contrast this with the approach that Ilmor have taken. The bike has been designed and developed in a very short space of time to race at the very top level of world motorcycle sport. This has been done without a huge fanfare, but they have just got on and got the job done with just a few well worded press releases. In fact the first time the bike was seen in public was at a public track day at Silverstone with Eskil Suter on board. The press were not even invited and the cat was only out of the bag when one of the other guys present took some pictures and sent them to the MCN. This was just a matter of weeks before the bike made its GP debut. They have a detailed 4 year plan and even Ilmor admit that the riders they have contracted have been hired for their development skills and not because they are seen as race winners. Ilmor know it will take at least two seasons before they are even competitive for placings, and have set out their plan accordingly. Take a look at the Ilmor web site if you really want to see the contrast between the XBRR and X3 launches. Very business like and down to earth, with no hyperbole or sound byte press releases. If Ilmor do not succeed in MotGP you can rest assured that they won't just pack it in, then enter the bike in a club series and call it a success. Moto Czyz are, at the moment, the DeLorean of the motorcycle world. They have been making noises for almost 3 years now about their groundbreaking GP bike, yet have not raced it or even tested it against current GP machinery. The only time it has been seen at the same venue as current GP bikes was at Laguna last year, and that was just for a demonstration and didn't run against its competitors. Until they actually enter a race with it the bike will remain just an unusual conversation piece, and not as a serious proposition. | ||
| Rocketman |
Court, not a handful of years ago you were invited to address an audience of assembled Ducati personnel. Ever since you continue to post up info on the BadWeB as if you were Ducatis financial director. There is a trend amongst many Americans on this board, perhaps because of the TPG connection to Ducati, to speak of Ducati as if they understand their entire financial dealings. Why many of you insist in portraying Ducati as some underhand dealing motorcycle manufacturer, or worse still, legalised robbers, is absolutely laughable. Go to ducati.com and search out the companies financial statements. Perhaps then you will understand, not a lot you dumb suckers, why Ducati has returned a loss this past couple of years yet has raised profit from several different model runs. Talking of Ducati running in the red is like stating the US government runs with a profit every year. Court, (lots of) BadWeBers, and I, simply have no idea what Ducatis financial status is on the whole or in the long run. Buell on the other hand are a subsidiary of a Forbes 100 company who have for several years now returned year on year millions of dollars profits, yet that Forbes 100 company won't so much as pissaway a couple of million dollars on a paltry domestic series race effort for the fledgling bastard child company they own 98% of. Stacking up Erik Buells morals as some sort of noble excuse for part of the reason why not is total bollocks. I for one would champion Mr Buell's race cause if he were bold enough to go rob a f*cking bank. You know, like Ducati apparently do all the time! God bless Italian motorcycle manufacturers. At least they try their damned hardest to please the people that buy them rather than fill the pockets of fat cat shareholders , many of who don't even own a motorcycle. Rocket | ||
| Aeholton |
Matt - Well written post. I would have to say your post is "spot on" and in line with public perception. I am very disappointed in Buell backing out of any FX involvement. I would bet that the AMA won't be so quick to write a bike into the rulebook in the future. | ||
| Jscott |
"Our decision to withdraw from the AMA Superbike paddock in 2007 was a very difficult one for us. Larry approached us this fall and offered a program and team infrastructure that allowed us to stay involved and keep racing for the 2007 season" said Michael Lock, CEO of Ducati North America. "Racing is in our blood, and we want to see a Ducati on the AMA grid. By supporting Pegram Racing, we can accomplish this goal." I hope for all the Ducatisti's out there that Ducati never runs in the black. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: Speaking of the Buell FX effort; would the following be applicable for 2006? -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: "We have a brand new bike and very little testing time – I think we have a very good product to work with but there is a lot of developing that needs to be done." -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Add to the quote: All we need is money. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Buell920 sez: here's my .02 I truely believe Buell MC is the one holding back here. If you look at Erik and the last 20 some years with HD and the things he has had input/say or credit in, I would venture to say he would be the first person HD would give money to for a cause he believed in. I guess this means that you never have had a conversation with Erik Buell then, right? Or read anything he has written? Or read any interviews? If you had, you would not be coming to that conclusion.} jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: I don't accept the double standard. A new bike always requires significant development. Folks who appreciate racing know this. The general public (JScot et al) may not, but we certainly do." JScott knows Jack Schitt? Condescencion does not become you. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Trojan Man sez: Buell launched the XBRR last year with a huge publicity fanfare to the assembled world press. Erik gave interviews to just about every motorcycling publication worldwide with the 'We're Back!' speech, and the attendant press releases stated that the XBRR was designed specifically to compete in US Formula Extreme and would give privateers the opportunity to purchase a competitive Formula Extreme bike for US$30,000. If they thought it needed more than one season of development why did they put the bike on sale right away to prospective customers? It's an American thang, Trojan...you wouldn't understand. Erik thought the other teams had WMDs. Wait a minute...your British, right? In that case, you may just understand afterall.  jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on December 21, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
Trojan cont.: Saying the the bike will get developed in CCS or ASRA is not going to make it a competitive FX bike (with no disrespect to the guys that race in these classes). That is like trying to develop an F1 car at a go kart race. Now, come on...there is plenty of disrespect in that statement. Over the top, over the top! Condescencion doesn't become you either. jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on December 21, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
"JScott knows Jack Schitt?" Yes I do know Jack, he's not such a bad guy. Jack and I are both, what I would consider, to be optimists, Buell owners, Buell fans, and Road Racing enthusiasts. However, we have not been looking on the "always on the sunny side" for so long that our retinals are burned out, enabling us to see simple truths. But hey what does the general public (Jack Schitt, JScot(t), Matt, Jimidan, José, Rocketman, Rocketsprink, et al) know after all. | ||
| Jimidan |
Rocket sez: God bless Italian motorcycle manufacturers. At least they try their damned hardest to please the people that buy them rather than fill the pockets of fat cat shareholders , many of who don't even own a motorcycle. Truer words have never been spoken. But I suspect that Ducati's motives are even deeper (and more selfish) than just trying to please us (being a Ducati owner myself)...racing on the World stage is an addiction for them. Like a junky, they don't care where the money has to come from, they are just looking for their next fix. jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on December 21, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
"...they are just looking for their next fix." Jimi that should be "their next FX" | ||
| Jimidan |
"...they are just looking for their next fix." Jimi that should be "their next FX" Dang, why didn't I think of that! That's good! jimi |
