| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Extra credit reading. This is from another post. WE'll be getting to process is a couple weeks, but this will provide s bit of foreshadowing.
There's a significant difference that I feel compelled to shine light on here. Buell has a well established history of stepping up to the plate and accepting responsibility long before owners or any Federal investigators are aware of any problems. I've had the great pleasure, during the past 6 days, to see Buell step up to the plate for items light years removed from any warranty or legal obligations. The most salient of Buell's examples is the much discussed shock recall. That would never have been detected by any owner or detailed investigation. The way it was discovered was incredible and the way Buell responded (ignoring for a minute the stumbling over themselves trying to hurry a fix SRP debacle) was indicative of the responsibility the company feels and exhibits. Everybody, me included, wants folks Buell to be trouble free. Lots of folks are dedicated to precisely that end. In fact, there is a talented team of folks who get PAID to do that. They are the central repository for ALL information Buell gathers from owners and dealers .....they are the Buell Customer Service Team. I continue to be amazed that most folks I talk to (and I am not making reference to the instant situation here) have never contacted either their dealer or Buell Customer Service. I'll share, once again, a tip to help you get things sorted out without delay. The FIRST STEP is always your dealer. The dealer is the front line and Buell "on the scene", "boots on the ground" representative. The dealer experience needs attention, but fact of the matter is, if you don't start there, you're delaying the resolution of any problem. BUELL CUSTOMER SERVICE has tons of resources and some dedicated folks who have the advantage of being the central repository for all Buell issues. For instance, I'm aware of one present issue that appears related to a belt/pulley alignment. Although it's not common and I'm not familiar with it and let's say for the example that it's affected 7 of 10,000 bikes or 0.0007%. It'd never send a signal and it'd be totally unfamiliar to the local dealer. Think, however, of the advantage of having the guy/gal on the phone who has personally resolved the OTHER 6. You with me now? This is why it's essential to work through the dealer toward Buell Customer Service. Buell Customer Service, in my PERSONAL OPINION, is not perfect. There are differences between Buell Customer Service and Harley-Davidson Customer Service and the "negative transfer of knowledge" effects have slowed the development of some Buell specific components. I will say that Buell Customer Service is as good or better than any of the 4 other motorcycles I own. And I will say, and this is the HUGE difference, that the folks at Buell listen carefully to their customers and there are some exciting changes and improvements in the wings. Court | ||
| Jlnance |
Court - As pleased as I am in general with Buell, there are some areas I'd like to see them improve in. They do listen to their customers, but it is a one way conversation. They do not do much in the way of talking to their customers. Consider the Uly sidestand recall. We were aware of the problem here on BWB for months before the recall came out. Presumably Buell was as well. Actually I'm sure they were as one of the Demo Ulys sent to the BRAG adventure in Oct 2005 broke a sidestand, requiring corporate involvement to get a new one overnighted out. It would have saved much agnst if Buell could have said "There have been reports of sidestand problems. We are looking into it. We will let you know when we figure it out." | ||
| Buellerthanyou |
Jim, Sadly, there may be some gawd damned lawyers that have a say in that kind of corporate communication/admission. H-D seems like a pretty litigious company, so they'll be looking out for the guy who contends: "See? They knew about it and hadn't done anything to fix it yet and now I broke my leg/mirror/fingernail! Gimme a million dollars!" Yuck... HellBuelly J "The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers." --Hellbuelly Butch | ||
| Court |
Good points and points in which I am aware of improvements on the way. Buell is aware, I think, that they are perceived as a more technically "leading edge" and "connected to their customers" company. I'd guess they are also aware that some of the ways they do business are in conflict with that message. HD is no more litigious than the company I work for (14X larger than HD) and companies aren’t litigious, consumers are. That being said, I'll give that it's a 2-way street. I live in NYC, America's most litigious city and my attorney, an underling in her firm, bills $550 an hour. I've been to battle twice in the last 10 years with large corporations. The lesson I have learned is to choose your battles carefully. I prevailed both times but would, knowing what I know now, have walked away in both cases.
Perhaps some angst, I agree, but I think (I have to go review FMVSS and NHTSA regs) that there are a bunch of clocks that start running the moment a manufacturer makes such a statement. From a manufactures standpoint, since some liability becomes limited with the announcement, the manufacture would PREFER to announce it the moment they have a single occurrence. I'd love, and I'm not sure it's possible, a world where Buell puts something like "We've had an owner in Peru and an owner in Indiana report a problem with....there is insufficient data, at this point, to detect and problems. We encourage owners to bring any concerns to our attention and for the next 3 months we'll advise if trends develop". The world's not there yet. Back to customer service tomorrow. Thank you guys for the good points. Excllent discussion. Court 10.15.06 | ||
| Jlnance |
I am sure the lawyers wouldn't like it. But lawyers don't like anything. At some point you have to decide how much you're going to let that influence your actions. I am sure the lawyers hate the Buell Demo Fleet. | ||
| Henrik |
DON'T WASTE MY TIME REMEMBER WHO I AM MAKE IT EASY FOR ME TO ORDER THINGS AND GET SERVICE MAKE SURE YOUR SERVICE DELIGHTS ME CUSTOMIZE YOUR PRODUCTS AND SERVICE FOR ME Excellent summary. There is no easier way to loose *my* business than wasting my time. Also, I consider myself a fairly well prepared consumer, and if I get the slightest inkling you're BS-ing me I'm gone for good. If you don't know, that's quite ok. Much better to tell me: "I'm not sure I have the correct answer, but I will check and get back to you in ?? time." Of course, not getting back to me in the promised amount of time - answer or no answer - is grounds for "dismissal" as well. Not that I'm picky or nottin'  Great thread. It's shaping up to be something Buell/HD ought to include as a day-long brainstorming session at sales training. Henrik | ||
| Blake |
Can I sum it up? Treat others as you would have others treat you. Who knew Jesus was a customer service prophet too?  | ||
| Court |
I have visions of the Customer Service Team traversing the halls of Juneau adorned in robes! Eccckkk.... Actually, the two of you(se) have provided the perfect segue for the next chapter, which we'll begin after I dispatch this little guitar mission this evening. | ||
| Bomber |
Court wrote Perhaps some angst, I agree, but I think (I have to go review FMVSS and NHTSA regs) that there are a bunch of clocks that start running the moment a manufacturer makes such a statement. sadly true -- there are instances of manufacturers who have drug there feet on introducing a new feature, specifically safety-related, in order to avoid the potential suits that would bely ache, "why didn't you put the airbag into my uncle's 1957 Wheezemobile? he'd still be alive today if you had!" also, companies don't sue, as Court said, custoemr's due, and often for little reason. imagine the coolness of the XB, or the Dyna, if all the costs that HDI bears for legal silliness could be given to the development teams . . . . . the mind reels but hey, we're talkin custoemr service here -- and, as is my custom, I digress Court -- ya still need to form altered? | ||
| Court |
Okay, we'll get ready to close our first chapter.....FIRST CONTACT. Suffice to say that the upshot of all this, as Blake observed, can be distilled to "treat others as you'd like/expect to be treated" THINK of how your customer service system looks from a prospective customers perspective, a disgruntled owners perspective and an owner in need of info's perspective. Look, so to speak, in the corporate mirror and see if you see the image you'd want the world to have of you. If you are a dealer or in customer service, try the "Call Yourself Up". See if you received the type of welcome and eagerness to solve problems that you'd like. Similarly if you have a website, go to it and ask how prospective customers, disgruntled (wasn't it Carlin who suggested that disgruntled owners need t be "regruntled"?) owners or an owner in need of information would feel. Some things need changed. Make a plan and set that change in motion. I'll close with a quote I like about change.
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| Naustin |
Nor does one discover new lands without several ships stuffed full of barter goods, a big chest of gold, and the blessing of the queen. Buell is merely a jester in the court of most dealerships - Certainly not a heralded explorer. I insist that customer service is not the problem. If you have a Road King - you will get excellent customer service at most dealerships. If you have an XB, you will not. We are not discussing a customer service problem. This is a discrimination problem. Approaching the issue from any other angle will deflect attention from the root cause and ultimately fail to remedy it. | ||
| Khollister |
" If you have a Road King - you will get excellent customer service at most dealerships. If you have an XB, you will not. We are not discussing a customer service problem. " Whoa there - I have a Road King and frequent the HD forums. Things ain't perfect there either. Most HD owners that are mechanically minded are loath to take their ride to the dealer for service because of the reputation for things getting screwed up. As an owner of both marques, I don't really see the discrimination - many dealerships are equal opportunity offenders (or idiots). Keith | ||
| Court |
I've long maintained my skepticism that a person can follow one set of values in their personal life and another in their vocational life. Similarly, I'd be thought to convince that a dealer can provide excellent customer service for one product and substandard in another. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and think there is some merit to the observation. But I question that a guy on the parts counter can fluidly make that "I'm great-I suck" transition throughout the day. I'm going to continue to poke, prod and encourage better customer service. I think the rising tide will lift several boats. I very much appreciate the comments and view points here. My goal is to share some thoughts and hear some thoughts, not to persuade. | ||
| Jlnance |
But I question that a guy on the parts counter can fluidly make that "I'm great-I suck" I've seen it happen to me, and it's fairly understandable. I go to my dealership, walk up to the parts counter, and ask for an intake seal for an M2. The guy looks at me and says "whats an M2?" Sometime later I rode the Blast up there and noticed that my timing cover had blown off. I go to the parts counter and ask for a timing cover for a Blast. There isn' one in stock. I figure a sportster timing cover will fit so ask for one of the chrome ones he has hanging on the wall. At this point he gets all excited. He found me some chrome allen screws so it would look good, and he told me how to handle the cover so it would stay shiney. He even came out and put it on the bike for me. It was great. The difference is he is a chrome person. Selling M2 intake seals is just a job to him. Selling chrome timing covers is a passion. | ||
| Blake |
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| Mainstreamer |
Jim, did it ever cross your mind that perhaps he was 'excited' because he was able to meet your need. His job is not to 'sell chrome' but rather to please you and take as much money from you as you're willing to part with. Just maybe he was happy to be able to help you. I ride both a Buell, this is my 2nd one, and a H-D Road Glide. My experience has been that the H-D/Buell staff seem to treat me the same regardless of which bike I'm riding. I also believe, in general, the knowledge level of the staff regarding Buell is LESS then their knowledge level of H-D. That's understandable H-D in business over 100 years, rider ratio of H-D to Buell ??? 1000:1 ??. My point is more experience with H-D's but perhaps the same enthusiasm, 'excitment' about being able to help you. I suspect he learned form his experience with you and in the long run, just maybe someday, with our help the staff will be as knowledge about our Buells as they are about H-D's. Thanks for your help in providing that experience to the Parts and Accessories guy! Sounds like a win/win situation. You got what you needed(timing cover) and he got what he needed (more knowledge of Buell). I hope you went through this experience in a friendly manner, with a smile and a thank you. If we make someone feel as though we value their help, they are more likely to want to please us again. If we all view the glass as half full and do what ever we can to help fill that glass we will all benefit. Nothing good ever comes from bitching and moaning about a half empty glass. | ||
| Jlnance |
I hope you went through this experience in a friendly manner, with a smile and a thank you. I always do.  | ||
| Court |
Close. Think for a moment about the knowledge of the folks in the dealership in comparison to the average Buell owner. STOP. I'm not asking for your "war story", just think about this for a minute. When you bought your Buell was it an impulse purchase or had you read everything you could get your hands on prior to the purchase? Anyone else do what I did when I bought my first motorcycle? I bought the service manual and parts manual, had read them cover to cover, marked the 7 errors on the back page and mailed it in. I submit that it's not unusual for a potential Buell customer to walk in and now MUCH more about Buell and what's going on in the world of Buell. How does a dealer leverage this to their advantage? What can be done to bring some intellectual parity to the table? Let's talk. | ||
| Cruisin |
That Court is a very good point. I think part of the problems stem from whether or not the staff WANT to know as much about Buells as they do HD's. Think about it. An HD dealership that does well gets to sell Buells. The Sales, Parts, and Service guys aren't sportbike fans. If they were, they'd be working at a Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki dealership in the same fashion. So they learn enough to get by and make do. They can order parts and do okay in service, but often things aren't in stock or they're not done to the level they need to be. Now take a dealership that has a crew that likes Buells AND Harleys. Meredith HD/Buell in New Hampshire is a great example. The sales manager (Heather) rides a Lightning. Parts guy rides a tube frame. Service manager rides a Ulysses now. In all three areas you've got someone who LOVES the brand. These guys go above and beyond to get and keep you riding the brand they love. There are HD guys in all three areas and they're cross-trained very well. I think that is where we're seeing the customer service experience fail - at the dealerships that have employees that don't LOVE the product. I don't think we'll see any major changes until the dealerships realize this and get new staff in that LOVE the product. I'd be perfectly happy to walk in and ask a question and have to wait to talk to the Buell expert, whether it be in sales, parts, or service. I can wait for a great answer...I don't like being given a crappy one just to get an answer. | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..whether or not the staff WANT to know..." Amen! H-D dealers are often long standing institutions that reflect the opinions or perceived opinions of the chain of ownership and the customers that support it. If an owner of a dealership dislikes Buells and won't support them, that attitude will likely be pervasive to the entire organization. Unless the MoCo wants to cut of their supply of merchandise (thereby punishing primarily themselves and the customers) there is little they can do about it except to encourage and hope for change. I am always a little stunned when I meet another of the do ragged, leather wrapped, knuckle draggers that call Buells (and even Sportsters) "girlie bikes", "not real Harleys", etc. That anyone could comport themselves like that and present themselves as such a caricature of a intelligent human being is simply beyond me. They simply have no idea how silly they look and stupid they sound. But those knuckle draggers are, in some cases, major players in the MoCo empire and and the MoCo cannot change it easily. The challenge here is akin to conquering racisim. I am always enriched and warmed when I go to a H-D/Buell dealership and find employees that know and like Buells. Central Maine H-D is such a dealership. Don't ever be put off by shoddy or stupid treatment at a H-D dealer. If that happened to me I would immediately ask to speak the the highest level of management in the building and would even try to find and access them myself. You may be speaking the the cause of the problem but you may also be speaking to the person that will listen to you. I did that recently at a local Honda dealer when a young member of the sales staff unloaded on me with his very negative opinion of H-D and Buell motorcycles. I immediately went into the office in front of the "head office" and informed several people sitting there what had happened, reminded them that I and my family had purchased three ATV's and a motorcycle from them in recent years, and informed them that they had just lost a sale on large displacement cruiser because of that person. And then I left. The MoCo would serve themselves well to create (if it does not already exist) a internet vehicle where people could provide impressions and reports of perceived shoddy treatment by licensed dealers. They don't have to do anything more than acknowledge and thank people for their inputs. They will have to ignore a lot of irrational rants and lies, but at least they will have some impression of the real world's thoughts and opinions. Jack | ||
| Bomber |
How would a dealership leverage the knowledge level of the customer? BRAG is a potential venue, for sure -- there is nothing more contageous than enthusiasm, and having a bumch of Buell loons hanging around during an open house, leading demo rides, and generally acting like excited 5-year-olds is a great way to spread the joy -- buncha dealerships do this, and it seems to work . . . . it may stop working, however, if the excited 6-year-olds feel that the energy flow is one way, and the dealership folks remain unengaged -- imagine a potential customer's confusion at showing up to a BRAG meeting to check it out and finding 2 people eating pizza . . . . but I digress (still) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Court, I don't understand selling ANY product and knowing it as well or BETTER than the consumer. We are all consumers of various products from TVs to cars to bikes to washing machines. Some items garner virtually no research prior to purchase. Others are researched to death prior to purchase. What irritates me is buying a product from a sales person who knows LESS about a product that they sell every day than I do. I don't understand how any dealership of any product can allow this to happen. Prime example: I have been shopping for a new TV for 3 years. The main reason for the protracted search is that technology has been changing in that one area more than any other area in consumer products over the last 5 years. In this pursuit, I can't tell you how many Best Buy, Circuit City, Tweeter guys I have spoken with that simply do not know the products at hand. I know most of these folks aren't paid that much, but still. In my business, having a customer know anything more than I do about the products I sell is a death sentence. I just don't understand how other industries allow it. I look at some of the representatives we have here, Dave Stueve and Josh Cox, to name a couple. I would be hard pressed to walk in and stump either of them on a Buell. I think that they are unnecessarily anomalous only in comparison to the knowledge of sales folks of other bikes under the same dealership umbrella. I'm sure that this is merely my personal hang up. I am a statistician and technocrat by nature. About Buells, I know a mere fraction of what most here know. If I can walk into a dealership and stump a sales person, they should be ashamed. I don't understand sales folks doing their job without a passion for the products you sell. Life's too short. Some shops have a dedicated "Buell Guy". I think that's a start. What I would like to see is something that is done in my industry. I think it would be cool for there to be an accredidation program for Buell. You would make a trip to the factory to see the bikes manufactured, you would complete some sort of technical training overview, you would have some sort of certification exam. Each year there would be updates to cover new model changes. These updates would be required to retain your certification. As a reward for the Buell Certification, there would be monetary rewards, pay raises, or bonuses for Buell models or HD models sold. The only way I have seen to alter behaviors within the sales community is to provide a monetary reward for efforts made. Water takes the path of least resistance. Sales guys normally gravitate toward what allows them to meet their personal goals most quickly. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on October 24, 2006) | ||
| Debueller |
IMO, anyone that visits this site on a regular basis could stump most sales and parts people at the dealer. (and maybe even a few techs!) There are so many knowledgeable people here it never ceases to amaze me. This place is the mother load of Buell knowledge. | ||
| Jlnance |
IMO, anyone that visits this site on a regular basis could stump most sales and parts people at the dealer. True. But nothing keeps those sales and parts guys off of Badweb. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
True. But nothing keeps those sales and parts guys off of Badweb. Exactly! If you are in sales, it is your responsibility (and a matter of survival) to know your product inside and out. If your whole sales pitch is "Look, it's a bike! Ain't it shiny! Here it makes noise!", you suck! If I walk into any shop and get that guy, I promptly walk out. What has that guy done to earn my business? That was my point with the accreditation program. Provide a monetary incentive to become experts (or at least increase their expertise) on Buells. Now guys that are a little "initiative challenged" can have a reason to know more and guys like Josh Cox and Dave Stueve can get paid a little more for what they already know. | ||
| Mainstreamer |
There is an incentive already in place, it's called sales commission. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Mainstreamer, Right now the guys responsible for selling Buells are also selling HDs. If I'm a sales guy and I don't know that much about Buells AND I am seeking a sales commission, I will sell that which requires the least amount of effort on my part, the HDs across the floor. We are trying to encourage directed behavior with positive reinforcement not allowing behavior to pursue the path of least resistance. | ||
| Daves |
Not all dealership salespeople work on commission. I am the only one here that does, because I want it that way. I am not 100% commission it's about 1/2 and 1/2 salary and commission. I get paid the same on a Buell as a Harley, new or used. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Dave, You and a few active others here are already Buell fluent. For those sales folks that are a little resistant, do you think that some sort of program for specific education (an accreditation) and an accompanying monetary incentive would encourage folks to at least learn more about Buells? I have a hunch that, other than bias against Buells, most sales folks don't sell more Buells because they are unfamiliar with them. Talk about a bike with lots of really cool, unusual features to talk about. It doesn't get much better than Buell. Even if you don't like that style of bike, you couldn't help but be impressed with the design that has gone into them. | ||
| Naustin |
Even if you don't like that style of bike, you couldn't help but be impressed with the design that has gone into them. That's like saying the Chevy owner can't help but appreciate Ford's this or that. It's just not the way many people are. Some people are just irrational when it comes to products they affiliate themselves with on a personal level. The Mine is Better, yours sucks attitude is so entrenched because they have attached their personal identity to the product/political party/philosophy/propaganda etc. Many people can't open their minds without shattering their self-image. Its sad. ANd its why some people have no choice but to ridicule buells, jap bikes, Chevy's, whatever. It's a mental illness, IMO. (Message edited by naustin on October 28, 2006) |
