| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Sean, not to drop a brick of obviousness on you, but look at the camera angles taken FROM Nicky's bike. That camera is mounted by the REAR WHEEL. You can clearly see Dani's FRONT wheel going down and the rear wheel never went forward of that camera shot. Care to explain how THAT could be possible if he indeed were EVEN with Nicky before he fell??? He went down BEHIND Nicky and slid into him. You only have ONE weird angle that makes it LOOK like Dani's even with Nicky when he fell, but that was the ONLY one. EVERY OTHER angle CLEARLY shows Dani BEHIND Nicky when he fell. | ||
| Jaimec |
PS: I'm no Nicky Hayden fan; I'm rooting for Rossi myself. BUT Nicky has certainly grown in my eyes this past week and I'd be okay with him taking the crown from Valentino on Sunday. | ||
| Heads |
Hayden I'll wager will not be at HRC for 2008. Just a hunch but certainly one worth betting on. Nothing in racing is water tight. Especially Hayden's contract. Rocket your probably on the mark,WSB might be attractive to hayden more chance of a title there for him | ||
| Rocketman |
Care to explain how THAT could be possible if he indeed were EVEN with Nicky before he fell??? He went down BEHIND Nicky and slid into him Jai, you answered your own question. You think Pedrosa's Honda was moving so much faster than Hayden's when he lost the front then? The laws of physics must be calculated different in the US. I mean that would be some neat trick to fall off behind someone who's traveling at very similar speed to yourself, and still catch up and knock them off too. Pedrosa is alongside. Do the freeze frame in the above link (Blake's post) and it is very clear that Hayden is no more than about 6" ahead of Pedrosa when Pedrosa's front washes. If you move along the film using freeze frame one can see that Hayden is starting to turn left away from the camera angle once he passes the camera, which places the camera angle argument you and Blake and others go with in Hayden's favour, yet one can also see that Pedrosa's bike now almost completely laid down is still hidden from view by Hayden's bike all except from the front of Pedrosa's rear wheel backwards. I still say Pedrosa chose the line he did and he was overtaking, whether he admits it or not. I am an expert. You will not convince me otherwise without conclusive proof and video evidence. Blake is an arsehat for not doing the freeze frame with the other video clip. Pedrosa is a Spanish Man of War. Hayden is an also ran. George Bush dreams of riding a Harley in Moto GP. If only somebody told him.................poor cun? My words are final. I am a god. Troy the Freaker | ||
| Lovematt |
There are two problems with the idea of falling being someone being similar to this situation. In a straight line where both bikes are going the exact same direction (i.e. not turning) and one bike falls "behind" the other, I could see how it is not likely the other bike would have a problem. However this is in a turn and the bike "behind" the other bike may have fallen but due to the paths and different speeds...they hit. The other thing if one bike was "behind" the other when it fell...how did it "catch up" and hit the other bike? Obviously a difference in speed was the case here and Dani was going way too fast for that line in that turn. I really am not a "big fan" of any one racer...rather I just like the competitive environment and for sensible and clean riding in a race. | ||
| Jaimec |
So in other words, Sean knows what he knows and doesn't want to be confused by the facts. Got it. Our country is full of people like that. We call them "Politicians." | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..I should know as I've had very little time on the race circuits but my alter ego Troy................. well that's a different kettle of fish as they say in Yorkshire." Sean, Let's cut to the chase on this, I don't understand what the above means. How much time (# or races or track days) do you have on motorcycles on closed circuit race tracks? Not that it has much to do with analyzing the crash. We can get all the data we need for that from the videos and Pedrosa's description of what happened. Jack | ||
| Trojan |
The other thing if one bike was "behind" the other when it fell...how did it "catch up" and hit the other bike? Obviously a difference in speed was the case here and Dani was going way too fast for that line in that turn. A number of reasons for that: 1. Dani was going too fast & left his braking too late, hence he would be travelling quicker than Hayden at the point when he went down. 2. They were on slightly different 'collision course' lines anyway, so unless one of them slowed significantly it was bound to happen. 3. A bike on it's side will often travel faster than one still on it's wheels. There is less friction between nice glossy bodywork and the track than tyres/track. I have often seen bikes skittled from behind by errant riderless crashers  4. Hayden is just too bloody slow, so if he had been riding better he wouldn't have been in a position to be hit from behind  (Pulls pin, then retires from the room wearing crash helmet!) | ||
| Blake |
"Blake, very smart freeze framing. Now please do the same with the link in your above post where the camera is looking across the corner. Then tell me it's an optical illusion that they were not side by side." I have looked at it in detail and with utmost analytic integrity. Geometry is my friend and I understand the effect of perspective and angled surfaces. The track is banked at that turn. The curbing is angled opposite the banking. In the video portion you mention, tontrary to your imagination, the camera angle is virtually parallel to the lead-in strait, not across the turn. If you look closely at that portion of the video, you can make out the painted curbing whose lines extend radially outward from the curve's center thus indicating something akin to lines of longitude for the curve. There is some slight adjustment needed to correct for the angle of the curbing and the banking of the turn. Failing to recognize these factors enhances the illusion that Pedro is close to even with Hayden when in fact he is not. If you properly factor the off angles of the curbing and the banked track surface and the camera angle, if you accurately extend the radially oriented lines across the track, you will clearly see that Pedro, as shown by the other two views, is nowhere near even with Nicky Hayden. You will find that his front tire is at or just passing the rear wheel of Hayden's machine. Pedro was never in a position to make a safe pass and instead of running it wide, he immaturely chose to jam it into Nicky. There are little to no frames missing between frames e, f, and g. You can see the time displayed on the images. If you look at that, you'll see four frames bearing the same exact time down to the second. Thus there is likely no more than 0.25 seconds between frames. You can also refer visually to the point where the curbing first becomes visible and also the point on the outside of the curve where there is intersecting pavement. You also don't seem to understand that while approaching the apex and still in control the racers are hard on the brakes. Pedro was closing at a high rate with foot off the peg; when he went down, he lost braking and so his machine continued sliding ahead at higher speed than Hayden who was still on the brakes approaching the apex. Brake to the apex, accelerate away from the apex. You would know this if you were a roadracer. Now stop your trolling. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Hey buddy; don't make me start insulting the Queen!  | ||
| Spatten1 |
"Hayden is just too bloody slow, so if he had been riding better he wouldn't have been in a position to be hit from behind" Oddly, there is some truth to that. Pedrosa weighs less than my 6 year old girl, and carries great corner speed. Hayden is built like a man, comes in the corners a bit slower, tends to square them off, and shoots out with American dirt style throttle control. One would think that Pedrosa might be aware of Hayden's riding style by now.... | ||
| Blake |
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| Blake |
Correction to my statement above. Since the video is in slow motion, the actual interval between frames is more like .05 seconds. I did find a few more frames and used them in the above video. Not sure what difference it makes. The obviousness of seeing Pdero crashing into Hayden from behind is unchanged. | ||
| Davegess |
Rocket, I don't think it matters that maybe Dani could have made a spectacular pass there, I doubt it but I can't ride sorth snot so what do I konw, what matters is he should be helping make his team mate faster and doing that inside move would make him slower. Dani didn't have a snowballs chance of winning the championship so he should have done what Colin did, try and help Nicky. Read this if you haven't already, very interesting. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Oct/061025-fc. htm | ||
| Rocketman |
Bollocks, I can't be arsed to argue. Troy (Message edited by rocketman on October 26, 2006) | ||
| Rocketman |
Sean, Let's cut to the chase on this, I don't understand what the above means. How much time (# or races or track days) do you have on motorcycles on closed circuit race tracks? Oh Jack you want me to brag now. Well I reckon two hands might provide sufficient fingers to answer your question. Rookie Race Pundit  | ||
| Heads |
Spatten1, your 6 yr old girl weighs more than dani,wow thats a big 6 yr old...ohhh and why does it have to be american dirt style... | ||
| Jackbequick |
Sean, You need not brag, we've had enough of that here already. And thanks for the reply, that's something like a data point. I'm a logical person. I'll go away and agonize over the variables. Let's see. Two hands = two times? Two hands = ten fingers = ten times? Went once, ten other riders gave him one finger as they passed him? This is a tough one... Jack | ||
| Spatten1 |
Heads: Alright, I exagerated a little, but Dani does only weigh about 105lbs, less than most adolescent girls. I said American dirt style because America is where flat track racing, other than speedway, is a big sport. That is why KR does clinics on flat dirt tracks for European racers. Additionally, Hayden grew up on flat dirt tracks, while most Europeans came up on 125s on pavement. Maybe Austrailia has a big flat track circuit that I don't know about????? Is that why McCoy is always sideways? | ||
| Rocketman |
This is a tough one... Jack you're killing me...............and destroying my Troy Freaking credibility. Less than ten times would be somewhere close, but I'm a road racer at heart. Not a track day wussy  Rocket Pundit | ||
| Blake |
McCoy is Rocketman is trolling and making sport of us. (Message edited by Blake on October 27, 2006) | ||
| Bads1 |
A$$hat!!!  | ||
| Heads |
McCoy is australian. Spatten1,not sure on the flat track seen here in oz but we do have the speedway world champ(jason crump) ohh and yes Dani does have a girly size about him..but has big gonads. | ||
| Ceejay |
Me thinks that was a great line by pedro, if nicky wasn't there...He'd probably been practicing it all day and then dammit, Hayden is in the freaking way! Well Screw him, I'm gonna take it anyway... | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake I absolutely promise you I am not trolling at all. I have, because of some peoples sensibilities, yours included, introduced a sense of humour to my posts, but tell you what.................... The head on camera angle is a little deceptive, so Pedrosa wasn't quite neck and neck. Maybe he was a fraction past half a bikes length into him, but here are my takes on it just so's you know this isn't a troll. 1. Pedrosa had a great line in. Yes it relied on Hayden realising Pedrosa was coming down the inside tight. That should have made Hayden sit up, then Pedrosa would have done likewise, then Pedrosa would have corrected the line and turned in sharper. Hayden would have had to do likewise but Pedrosa would have stole the line, the corner, and exit the apex on the inside. Advantage Pedrosa. Hayden passed. 2. Pedrosa did not loose the front through contact with the kerb. Pedrosa says he was coming in too hot but the reality is, he meant to come in hot hoping that the above scenario would have played out. What really happened was Hayden was dumb enough not to realise Pedrosa was making a move on him down the inside, or he was dumb enough to stay in the fight when he should have conceded the corner and wait to see where Pedrosa exited. 3. Because Hayden didn't concede the corner for either of the above reasons (only), Pedrosa thought to himself "what a stupid •••• Hayden is. He's essentially just brought both of us down for the sake of one position over a world championship stake. Now I have to apply more front brake than I would have wanted to, and hope I don't bring down my dumb gringo team mate. Shit. Too late. My front washed. Ah well there's always next year for me, though I doubt poor gringo with them daft shorts will ever get another shot." 4. And lastly. Because of the above Pedrosa is very very reluctant to admit he was actually overtaking. Anyway, why should the hot charging Spaniard reveal his race tactics to the opposition. I mean there's always next year for him to challenge Rossi. That and it saved getting a smack in the mouth from that gung ho Yankee with the daft shorts. Conclusion. Rossi will wipe the floor on Sunday (brace yourself). Hayden will be riding somewhere in the US come 2008. Rocket......... still a race pundit. | ||
| Jaimec |
Thank you, Mr. Puig. | ||
| Aussie_buell |
McCoy is S. Africaner. WTF Garry is a aussie mate. Born in Sydney Chech his helmet design dude its got a skippy on it.  | ||
| Davefl |
What really happened was Hayden was dumb enough not to realise Pedrosa was making a move on him down the inside, or he was dumb enough to stay in the fight when he should have conceded the corner and wait to see where Pedrosa exited. Rocket, I cannot disagree with you more.. Hayden was in front and had no reason to "concede" the corner. The rider in front gets to chose the line he takes, the rider trying to overtake has to find a safe line around. It's not like Dani was blowing his horn and shouting "get out of the way"  | ||
| Trojan |
What happened in Portugal is now ancient history guys...Spain is upon us and look what is happening at first practice today 1. V. Rossi 1'33.310" 2. C.Stoner 1'33.316" 3. N.Hayden 1'33.317" 4. Capirossi 1'33.474" 5. Vermeulen 1' 33.513" 6. Edwards 1'33.545" 7. Pedrosa 1'33.643" 8. Bayliss 1'33.699" 9. De Puniet 1'33.774" 10. Melandri 1'33.791 Less than 1/2 a second seperating the top 10, which makes it pretty exciting for later on methinks Bayliss in at 8 is a potential fly in the ointment for the front runners and could be a championship spoiler if he gets involved in a fight at the front. I still think Melandri is the man to win the race and Rossi the title though | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..Pedrosa had a great line in. Yes it relied on Hayden realising Pedrosa was coming down the inside tight." A racer should be looking over his shoulder and trying to stay out of the way? You were joking about having raced before, right? "That should have made Hayden sit up, then Pedrosa would have done likewise..." That is too bizarre. Hayden was on line and speed to get through that corner fast and still in contact and contention with the leading group. The traditions and rules of racing put the onus on Pedrosa to ride around, not through or over, a leading bike. And they call for the leading bike to not make any erratic moves to prevent a faster rider from passing. Hayden did nothing wrong. "..Pedrosa did not loose the front through contact with the kerb. Pedrosa says he was coming in too hot but the reality is..." Pedrosda says he saw he was closing on Hayden too fast, braked, tried to tighten the line, and got up on the "zebra". I believe him and read his actions as attributing to his fall, it was a combo of those factors. And what I see in the videos bears out what Pedrosa says. "..What really happened was Hayden was dumb enough not to realise Pedrosa was making a move on him down the inside, or he was dumb enough to stay in the fight when he should have conceded the corner and wait to see where Pedrosa exited..." Okay, you're back to the troll mode now. Or was Hayden was not using his rear view mirrors? And not complying with the HRC team's secret team orders? The rest of the troll has no basis in reality and is ignored. Jack |
