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Buellgirlie
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 11:18 am: | 
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steel? garments? phone banks? data entry? heck, even farming!
the next generation wont even know those used to be USA jobs.........
D |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 11:53 am: |
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Still plenty of steel industry in America. We have some right here in East Texas and just down the road a piece too. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 02:15 pm: |
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,,,Wiki says:
Output in million metric tons crude steel; the country/region
1. 63.0 Mton Mittal Steel Company NV (Global) [2]
2. 46.7 Mton Arcelor (Europe) [3]
3. 32.0 Mton Nippon Steel (Japan) [4]
4. 30.5 Mton POSCO (South Korea) [5]
5. 29.9 Mton JFE (Japan) [6]
6. 23.8 Mton Shanghai Baosteel Group Corporation (China)
7. 19.3 Mton United States Steel Corporation (United States)
8. 18.4 Mton Nucor Corporation (United States)
9. 18.2 Mton Corus Group (Europe) [7]
10. 17.5 Mton Riva Group (Europe) [8]
I don't know how that compares to the heyday of US Steel, but I'd suspect it's way, way, way down from the WWII/post-WWII booming days of Monongahela Valley and Mr. Carnegie?
G2 |
Outrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 04:20 pm: |
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Steel, garments, farms, data entry...Yep, sad but true.
You should have been there when I got reamed for making a presentation to the board pleading the case for switching to Kawasaki Steel in 1974.
I had to as Kawasaki Steel was a superior grade priced around 50% less, FOB Destination than the steel we had been getting from Pittsburg and Gary.
After a while the only objection was lead time cancellation. They wanted a 60 day cancellation/revision clause and the best we could get from Kawasaki was 75 days. We settled for 75 and just paid closer attention to forecasting.
One good thing about that whole situation was that after WWII our government sent our industry leaders to Japan to help them design and build the production facilities our industries wished they could afford.
The key difference was we had to upgrade based on our profits (and reduced dividends) whereas Japan got to do it with guilt money (two A bombs) from our Federal Government.
Of interest America did the same thing with Taiwan and China during the Nixon Administration. Trust me, my Dad's company was one of the participants.
Ever try keeping a stockholder when you cut dividends? Some investors just don't see the forest through the trees.
Ergo the trend in America was to relocate to States that had a trainable labor force (usually agrarian) and mild climate in order to lower their total operating costs. However, some industries, like steel, had to stay put do the the source and transportation costs of their raw materials.
Since then the trend has been to outsource and later reduce employment costs as that is about the only area left to trim.
Personally, I have no clue as to why HD is still in Wisconsin. They should have bailed back in the 1960's when the others did. |
Outrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 04:25 pm: |
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Monongahela Valley ???
Aww shucks Big Daddy, you don't really want to get me started on the lumber industry as well. 
Hell, I have already bored half the BWB and upset the rest. Me thinks it is time to step away from the computer for a while.  |
Old_man
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 05:09 pm: |
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Monongahela Valley, where I live in the Pittsburgh area, where in the 50s more than half the worlds steel was made.
As a young man, I worked for J&L Steel here.
Even then I knew it wouldn't last.
I found a different job. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 06:36 pm: |
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No, we should save timber discussion for later and It'd be great to engage Snail in that discussion.
We can talk about textiles and furniture! I need to step away too. I can't remain rational, or realistic, when the subject turns to the future of my children, and their children, and so on and so forth.
In fact my list of people that I can't stand to be around now includes the apathetic -- new addition, probably because I hadn't thought of it sooner.
I really need to step away from this,,,,
G2 |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 06:11 am: |
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Greg,
There's a lot more to the steel industry than crude steel output.
For example, every year America produces 65 Mton of new steel product from scrap.
Some countries don't have anywhere near that proportion of scrap steel industry. Americans like their cars and trucks and we've learned to reuse the steel. The more a country is growing/expanding, the more raw steel they need. Eastern Europe and China and India are growing a lot faster than America, no?
American steel production has remained fairly constant since the 1970s at about 100 Mtons. Half of that total is now produced by smaller mini-mill operations. We now import around 20-25% of our raw steel consumption.
Remember when dashboards and bumpers and trim panels and wheels and engine blocks were all made of steel?
Plastics have displaced a LOT of the demand for steel over the years as have aluminum alloys.
America has about 100 steel mills.
Remember when President Bush imposed the tarrif on steel imports? Until the WTO ruled it illegal. How is it that OPEC and their market manipulations are legal? 
Old,
As a youngster, I lived for 7 years across the river from J&L in Baden, PA. |
Kdan
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 06:44 am: |
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Wanna talk about the computer industry? Can anybody name 3 things IBM manufactures? How about IBM announcing the intention to invest $6 Billion in the Indian Economy over the next three years.
Some people in the dark think only low paying help desk jobs are moving offshore. That is an ignorant statement. GE's entire programming development staff are indian contractors. Me, I'll turn off the lights and start a business doing datacenter automation after the Indians revert the entire industry back to 1978. It should be a piece of cake the second time around. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 09:29 am: |
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General Electric's Burlington, Iowa high voltage swtichgear operation has been purchased as well. They were purchased by Powell of Houston and I'm sure there are some interesting twists to this one. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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I had no idea that GE was in the computer software business. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
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GE has many programmers in their various divisions, high voltage stuff is just one arena, GE-Med is another with their MRI and other medical imaging products and associated software.
I've worked at GE-Med a few times now as a contractor in their engineering design departments. Hard to get on board full time though, kind of like Harley-Davidson. |
Old_man
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:57 am: |
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Ownership of Westinghouse Electric Co. was transferred from British to Japanese hands yesterday as Toshiba Corp. completed the purchase of the Monroeville-based nuclear power plant company from British Nuclear Fuels PLC for $5.4 billion.
Complete story;
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06290/730631-28.stm
My nephew has been an engineer there for many years. I hope this change doesn't hurt him. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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How is it that OPEC and their market manipulations are legal?
It isn't. But not being in the US, OPEC does not have to concern itself with US laws.
The non-US cartel I really hate is DeBeers, the people who control most of the worlds diamond production. Not only did they manage to get a hold of most of the diamonds, they also managed to popularize the notion that diamond rings symbolize love. Effectivly they have managed to tax sex.  |
Mainstreamer
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 12:26 am: |
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Kdan, I worked for IBM for 38 years. The last 15 were in outsourcing. Yea, IBM took IT jobs away from other companies and we were well paid to do that. About 7 years ago many of our customer realized they could reduce their contract cost if we, IBM, went overseas to get the programming skills required for them. They demanded it. If we did not , no contract extension, no new work or contract addendum. Though programming then was generally 20% -30% of most large contracts we did as requested or lost 100% of the contract. That translates to loss of 100% of the US IT jobs, not just the 20%-30% that went off shore. That translates to lost revenue for a USA company, IBM. lower revenue results in decreased company worth and a decrease in stock value. The US public, ie.. stock holder are affected. GNP goes down, yada, yada. for certain off shoring is a big contributor to IBM showing a quarter to quarter decrease in revenue in the 13 quarter prior to 3 Q 2006. Stock up over $2.00 today!!
As for manufacturing jobs.... economist determined many years ago that we do not have sufficient resource to keep all manufacturing jobs here and that we could better compete in the WORLD economy if we sent our low paying mfg jobs off shore where labor cost was substantially loss. Mfg., then customer service, then IT, what's next?
Kinda the same reason Buell goes off shore for many of their parts..... We demand it! That is, we want the best possible price we can get. |
Jayvee
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 01:47 am: |
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We just laid off all our programmers at work, replaced with contractors in India. When I was in high school/college, becoming a programmer was how we were going to be employed after we sent all our manufacturing jobs overseas. Now the programming jobs follow. I guess someday I will take classes on being a Nurse or Barber, some job that can't be shipped out. Maybe a H-D mechanic? |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 08:08 am: |
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Did anyone see the History channel show last night about "Number 7" the world's largest blast furnace, cranking out 11,000 tons of steel a day 24/7 ?
It explained pretty well, that although the nominal number of steel producers is down, total steel OUTPUT, from the United States, is up. |
Mainstreamer
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:07 am: |
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Jayvee, most likely good opportunity in the medical profession, nursing, radiation technology, etc... Someone needs to be here to take care of we old folk or maybe they'll just ship us 'off-shore'.
http://www.epa.gov/region4/water/oceans/burial.htm |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:10 am: |
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Soylent Green ;-}
don't ferget education -- while distance learning is growning by leaps and bounds, there will always be a need for someone to stand at the front of the classroom and dodge spitballs |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:14 am: |
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Recommended reading:
The World is Flat, Thomas Friedman
rt |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:15 am: |
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I can relate to Court's statement above as,i've seen our CNC machines make great advances over the years."One stop machining" as it's called,eliminates the need for parts to go to other machines to be finished.The "Tornos Decos'" i run at the moment(3) are one example.We "do more with less people". |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:16 am: |
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Recommended reading II:
Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand
G2 |
Davegess
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:42 am: |
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Intersting comment in the local paper, the opinion piece was saying that the number one program to reduce poverty in the third world was .... Walmart!
We are in effect exporting our standard of living to the poor parts of the world. I really can't argue with improving the standard of living aroudn the world. It is going to involve some pain and dislocation in the developed world but it has to happen.
With the shrinking of our world we cannot have penthouses in NY or Paris while children starve in Darfur. First it is just not right. Second it will result in more violent clashes beween the haves and have nots.
Now how do we build a factory in Sri Lanka, improve the standard of l iving there AND not ruin people in the developed world?
boy if I know the answer to that!!!
I do know that shutting our borders and going into a protectionist stance probably won't work. One it is too late and two it has not worked well in the past.
any ideas? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:58 am: |
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Dave, the answer is very simple. Support freedom, meaning capitalism/free enterprise and free trade while opposing anything that seeks to stifle or restrict it including monopoly and illegal cartels (OPEC?).
It is working wonders all over the world. India is the perfect example. If twenty years ago someone had told you that India would become a leading center for computer programming, would you have believed it? |
Buellgirlie
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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Recommended reading:
The World is Flat, Thomas Friedman
awesome book. gets a bit repetitive after a while, but the message is clear. there's a whole list of reasons why the world had changed and converged. the most relevant example for this thread....it used to be ok to be mediocre in cleveland and even if you were exceptional in calcultta, you still had less of a chance because because the world wasnt connected (and cleveland had natural advantages being in the USA).
now its be the best you can be, anywhere you are...and the mediocre folks have to compete or fall back. (highly misquoted by me, but thats one of the main points)
D |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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The world has changed on our watch. |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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My watch still has the numbers "1" through "12" on it. Is it obsolete now?
rt |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 02:00 pm: |
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I'll never forget the terror, as a small childlet, the first time I saw what Mickey did at 6:30PM.
I was scarred. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:36 pm: |
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"Remember when President Bush imposed the tarif on steel imports? Until the WTO ruled it illegal. How is it that OPEC and their market manipulations are legal? "
Probably isn't "legal", but with the entire world economy and transportation systems based on oil as the lifeblood, it's a little too late to tell the oil producers much of anything, They have it and we NEED it to keep going as we have been, not many choices when you are that dependent on anything. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 06:41 am: |
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Court,
My sister's Minny Mouse did the same thing! Shameful. And confusing. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 09:53 am: |
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Some thoughts ...
Our economic system is competitive. When you boil it down, the way you get a job is to do something better or cheaper than the way it's currently being done, and take the job away from the person who is doing it now.
This sucks. I've had a friend and co-worker from Nortel jump off a bridge because he lost his job. It's very hard on people and it causes a lot of stress. The redeming quality of our economic system is that is sucks less than anything else tried so far.
There is a lot of complaining about foreign competition, and many of the issues raised there are real. But sometimes I think it's just a convienet excuse. Nortel didn't lay off thousands and thousands of people because of foreign competition. They did it because of domestic competition, primarily from Cisco. AT&T and Lucent are having problems for the same reason. DEC and Compaq are gone, primarily due to competition with Dell and Microsoft. Google is about to eat Microsoft's lunch.
We say, with some accuracy, that US jobs are moving overseas. But that implies that if there weren't overseas competition that those jobs would still exist in the US. I don't think thats true. We have gotten better at manufacturing over the last century. We can make better things now, and use less people to do it. Look at Court's steel example. The US still produces steel, we just don't need many steel workers to do it.
Manufacturing jobs have for the last few generations been a decent way to make a living with a minimum of formal training. The problem I worry about is the lack of something else for people to do in the absence of these jobs.
In theory it's a good thing not to need so many people in manufacturing. It frees up people to do other things, say cancer research, developing alternative fuels, or zillions of other things that would be nice to have. In practice I don't think it's going to work out like this. And this I think is the root of the problem. |
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