| Author | Message | ||
     Raceautobody |
If you haven't checked this site out yet most of the info will cross over for the S3.http://www.saintjohn.nbcc.nb.ca/Marriott/x1/ | ||
| Raceautobody |
Also check on the bottom side of the throttle body there is a vacume port for a carbon canister on the Cali models. It should have a small rubber cap on it which may be missing or probly cracked causing a vaccume leak. Just a thought. I'm done now. Al | ||
| Naustin |
Race - Thanks for all the input. I bookmarked the static timing thread... I will hook the bike back up to the VDSTS and check the linearity of the TPS voltage. It appeared to be OK, but I didn't look at the voltage in a deliberate way like that.... I hadn't seen any mention of bad TPS sensors elsewhere - that's a good lead and should be simple to check. I'll be reading that x1 site today too. I did check the vacuum port on the TB and verified that the rubber cap was there. I didn't look close enough to see if it was cracked as that would require removing the bread box. If I do that, I'll replace the intake seals too while I'm at it. Though, as I said, I don't think the seals are the problem... I sprayed WD40 at them until it was dripping and burning off the headers and the idle did not change at all. Thanks again. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
FWIW - my 2001 had a stumble/miss at 2800-3200 RPMS initially and would fall on its face at wide open throttle. After several dyno runs and diagnostics, it was decided that a new stock ECM should be installed. Bike has been about 97% better. I consider this a success. My point is that it just may be a bad ECM, which is not unheard of in the 2001's. | ||
| Naustin |
That would suck. Who knows, maybe the idiot who owned this bike originally bought a BAD race ECM off eBay.... I have a headache. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Nick, If you want to make the trip, the "Crisis Center" is available for your use. Sage advice and wise cracks are also included. I'm around all weekend. Brad | ||
| Naustin |
Thanks Brad. I think I'll be able to check the static timing at home. I just have to figure a way to prop up the rear end since I don't have a stand yet. | ||
| Bomber |
length of all-thread or simlar cheap metal rod through the read axle, two cheap jackstands from the car parts joint fast, cheap AND easy! | ||
| Naustin |
I've already got the jackstands, so that's what I was thinking...  | ||
| Bomber |
you're less than $5 away from a very stable rear stand, N ;-} | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Do the intake seals also. They are over 2 years old. They will need it soon if they don't already. | ||
| Naustin |
Once I drill the rivets on the timing cover, can I replace them with screws from the Hardware store, or do I need to buy a pop rivet gun? Also, I had this little daydream just now about the timing... Think of two straight lines on a graph. One is a 45 degree angle, and the other is 50 degrees, and they cross like an X somewhere near the midpoint. Maybe that's my ignition curve vs my Fuel Curve or something like that.... Where they cross is 4,000 RPM and that's when I get the miss. If I get my timing set perfectly, maybe both lines become parallel, and WHAMO!! FIXED!! That's a wild, uneducated guess that came out of a day dream... | ||
| Bomber |
sheet metal screws will do ya fine (don't ferget the loctite!) Stainless is good! if yer lucky, you'll find some allen-headed sheet metal screws! | ||
| Naustin |
OK - Good news and Bad news. The Good news is that the static timing was balls on. I verified it by listening for the fuel pump to cycle on, and ended up putting it exactly where it had been in the first place. Took it for a ride, and it rode exactly like before (just that low speed roughness and the occasional 4K RPM miss) - for the first half of the ride. The bad news is, on the way home the problems started getting worse. No longer is the problem isolated to 4K. ON the way home, the bike would not pull over 4K RPM. Its like it was hitting a brick wall. Then, I as I was testing around to get a better idea of what it was doing, it got even worse. At any speed or RPM in Open loop, throttle inputs greater than about 25% resulted in hard, steady missing -(something majorly wrong) as if the rev limiter had kicked it and it wouldn't pull at all. I couldn't go over 70mph in top gear. It had never done this before today. I didn't think I was going to make it home. When I did get home, I hooked it back up to the VDSTS right away. The ETS and the IAS seemed to be reading normally. They indicated temperatures that seemed right anyway. The O2 sensor was reading rich. It was fluctuating between .65 and .85, consistently at idle. According to the shop manual, if the O2 sensor is reading rich, then I could have dirty or stuck open injectors – or a bad ECM. But, if it is simply shifted sensor and reading richer than reality, maybe it’s causing the ECM to lean the bike out to the point of my symptoms. Also, battery voltage seemed on the low side. The VDSTS was only showing between 11.6 and 11.9 volts. But, the battery itself read 12.75 with the voltmeter. I tried to verify the AC output by the procedure in the Service manual, but I forgot to adjust my voltmeter to AC and I fried it... I figure the battery would have been dead by now if the voltage regulator was bad, so I’m going to assume the voltage reading coming from the battery according to the VDSTS is normal until someone says otherwise. I'm going to head to the auto parts store this morning and pick up a new o2 sensor; if I can find the part number around here somewhere for the HD equivalent. IF that's not the problem, at least I can eliminate it as the cause. OH and PS - I also discovered my front isolator is cracked half-way around.  (Message edited by naustin on October 08, 2006) | ||
| Sparky |
Nick, just fishing here. The 98 S3 service manual has a test for the ignition module (2001: ECM): spray the module with refrigerant and see if it kills the enigne. If not then blow hot air from a heat gun on it to see if it kills the engine. Next, my 03 XB9R runs rather rough below 3 grand with the race ECM (with either stock or race muffler) but runs smooth with the stock ECM. Perhaps if you could find someone with a stock ECM and temporarily swap them, that might isolate the problem to the race ECM if the hesitation/burbling goes away. | ||
| Naustin |
WEll, I changed the oil and tranny fluid. The dealer must have lied when they told me they changed it cause both were dirty and there was quite a bit of debris on the magnet on the primary drain plug ) No big surprise (-assholes), I had a feeling they didn't do it, and I was right.... Also, My ProSeries supertrapp has really loosened up lately. I took the endcap off today and some of the allen bolts were damaged inside. (Looks like part of the end cap was rubbing on them). SO, I couldn't tear it apart any futher. I noticed that there is an extra bolt hole in the bottom of the can (3 inches from the end, right in the bottom, and today some packing blew out of it and there was a lot of exhaust coming out of it too. I don't remember that happening before. Is that bolt hole supposed to be there? THere is black metal on the other side of it, so it doesn't appear to go all the way through, but exhaust still finds its way out of the hole now. I also changed the o2 sensor. I did notice a difference on the test ride, but it apparently wasn't the main problem. Again, any time I gave it more than 30% throttle, it was like the rev limiter was kicking (as in something majorly out of whack) and it wouldn't pull at all. It didn't sound right in closed loop below 3,000 either, but it ran ok - I don't know if it was just the new exhaust leak from the muffler or something more.. WHen I got home, I tested the intake seals again, this time per the service manual using water. I sprayed it in a very fine mist right out of the garden hose, and this time, unlike when I used WD40 or Carb Cleaner, I definatly got a change in the idle. Brad - you were right all along. I'll be ordering the seals tomorrow and I'll go from there. Sparky Thanks for the tip. I haven't ruled out the ECM as a contributor to all these issues. I really think the bike has a combination of problems. Nick (Message edited by naustin on October 08, 2006) | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Nick, The extra bolt hole holds your assembly in place. Sounds like your bolt fell out. You will have to remove the entire innards and remove the buggered bolts with a vice grip. If you can slide the core around you should be able to find the captive nut welded onto the end cap assembly. The discs bolt to the endcap. Brad | ||
| Oldog |
Nick, the sensors "seem" to be in spec, maybe dirt fuel system, chafed wiring? 12.xx is low for battery voltage no load it should be 13+ is the cylinder head temp sensor in the rear head correct? | ||
| Naustin |
Oldog The Head Temp sensor appeared to indicate the correct temp. By that I mean prior to running the bike it indicated the engine was pretty close to the same temp as the outside air, and when I started the bike up, the engine temp climbed steadily - not in big jumps, and fully warmed up it indicated between 280 and 320 after two different rides. So it seemed to be working properly. As far as the battery voltage, that was tested with the ignition on, VDSTS hooked up, and the bike not running. I was unable to test output from the alternator or the Voltage Regulator because I didn't really know how to run my voltmeter and I cooked it. Battery is supposed to be brand new (But as we know, my dealer has consistently lied to me so who knows...) It looks new anyway. Brad OK - that makes sense... If I'd noticed that exhaust leak before I had put the muffler back on the bike, I could have done that yesterday... Oh well, plenty of time. I'm probably going to end up working on this bike all winter... | ||
| Raceautobody |
The baffle not succure in your muffler was the cause for your lack of speed. It will also help driveability if you have that supertrapp repacked. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/47623/203222.html?1150451040 Al | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Al, Good catch, that could cause real breathing problems. Nick, Should be an easy fix. You may want to put a stainless steel washer under the new bolt and lock washer. The metal has a tendancy to fatigue and crack around the bolt hole. Also, use copper antisieze on all bolts for the baffle assembly. Brad | ||
| Naustin |
Race Wow - yeah I guess that could be a problem! Thanks for the heads up! Brad Thanks for the tips on that muffler repair. I should have everything I need before the weekend to get the seals replaced and the muffler rebuilt. I'll post again then to let you guys know if the bike is cured. Nick PS) Too bad they're predicting snow this week...  (Message edited by naustin on October 10, 2006) | ||
| Raceautobody |
Good luck Naustin, Our riding season is quickly coming to an end (snow showers wed and thurs.) and it would be great if you can get those gremlins out of that bike before too late. Al | ||
| Naustin |
No kidding, If the intake seals and exhaust repair don't completely cure the bike, I'm going to be up against the wall for riding time to diagnose and fix anything else. But, I have some pretty heavy winter gloves and an insulated one-piece riding suit, so I'm comfortable for short periods of time down to the mid 40's. There will be plenty of those days yet to come. The problem is when the city starts putting that damn liquid salt crap on the roads, it never goes away until the spring rains wash it off - and that stuff is so terrible for not only the bike's finish, but all the electrical stuff that I dare not ride it after that, especially with those beautiful PM wheels I've got... Nick | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Nick, If you want, bring it on up to the "Crisis Center" We could tag team it and get it sorted quickly. I've got all the tools and odd bolts and such are readily available near by. In it's present state, I think a trailer is needed however... I will be around all day Sunday. Brad | ||
| Oldog |
The sensor sounds normal ok, under load the battery even new would read lower than 13v, Nick most meters have a replacable fuse. [ the truth is a 20$ cheapie from wally world is good enough for most jobs ] VSDS tends to read a little low as the voltage measurement is through the ECM and it has been noted on another thread, Where did you find the "other intake seal test"? I tried WD40 and thought that I was a bout to start a fire! I am following your progress with interest, as My bike has developed an annnoying backfire / stall issue, your are narrowing it down quite nicely, Hang in there!  | ||
| Crashm1 |
Naustin did you ever look at the Throttle Position Sensor? This really does sound a lot like when mine started misbehaving last year. I found the ground wire for my TPS broken right where it enters the TPS. I tossed an O2 sensor, plugs and fuel filter at it before I found the problem. I also seem to recall looking at it when I borrowed my dealers scanalyzer to do a TPS reset and thinking it was ok till I found the problem a couple days later when it got really bad to ride. | ||
| Naustin |
Crash - Yes; visual inspection of TPS shows all the wires to be in good condition. I zeroed it with the VDST software per Al Lighton's instructions - and it appeared to be zeroed correctly in the first place. I'm positive that it is zeroed correctly. I also checked for any spikes in the range by very slowly advancing the throttle while watching the voltage reading. I guess there could still be an intermittent ground fault in the harness, but at this point I'm going in a different direction. Olddog My voltmeter was actually a rather nice little ~$35ish job from Radio shack. I'll dig it out of the trash and see if it has a fuse. I should have taken a few electrical engineering courses in college where I might have learned what all those damn squiggly lines mean. Its actually the second one I've ruined. I'm usually pretty good at guessing my way through how to do things and getting it right on the second attempt. Unfortunately voltmeters seem to be overly sensitive to abuse. LOL As for the intake seals. I tested them with carb cleaner first, and then WD40. Both of those were recommendations picked off various threads on BWB. Unfortunately I later read to NEVER use carb cleaner because it will degrade the seal's integrity (great) - and that WD40 was a better alternative. But, the factory service manual explicitly says to use water and only water to diagnose the leak, and using water I was able to find it where as I just got a lot of smoke and stink using the other two methods. Sorry to hear about your backfire and stalling problem. I'm no expert as you can probably tell.  I hope you figure it out. For what its worth, mine has never backfired or stalled. It coughed out the throttle body a couple of times, but its always run, more or less. Brad Thanks, if it wasn't 100 miles to get to you, I'd definatly be there, but I'm not comfortable riding it that far until I get it fixed after nearly not making it home last weekend. I don't want to hurt and am pretty worried that there may already be lasting consequences. I've put 2,000 miles on the bike since I bought it and it has had at least slight problems the whole time. Hopefully it wasn't bad enough to hurt anything.  I'm pretty sure I can do it, it just might take me all weekend and 3 trips to the hardware store for tools, but I'm getting the feeling that if I keep this bike, I'm going to NEED the tools since I would rather drink used oil than step foot in my local dealership again. If I really bugger it up, then I'll rent a trailer and drag it up to the crisis center. Update Last night I pulled the ProSeries Supertrapp and tore it down. The baffle had slipped backwards about an inch sealing the backplate disc against the Venturi on the exit pipe. (if that makes sense.) This effectively sealed (or nearly sealed) the can and I believe it was responsible for the Scary Bad sound and behaviour of the bike on 10/7/06. Whether the loose and shifting baffle was responsible for the occasional missing at 4.5K prior to 10/7/06 remains to be seen, but I somewhat doubt it. I think this was a separate problem. The exhaust is back together and ready to go back on the bike. Unfortunately, its snowing here today, so I haven't been able to test ride. Will probably wait until after the intake seals are installed. If I can summon the mental strength to suppress my rage and vicious tongue - I may embark on an incursion to the parts counter at the dealer  to get exhaust port gaskets too... Those bastards... Nick (Message edited by naustin on October 11, 2006) | ||
| Sparky |
The Firebolt service manual specifies using propane to check for intake seal leaks. It shows a crimped copper tube with a very small orifice connected to a propane bottle. It's interesting how one manual says to use water and a later one says to use propane. Anybody try this? | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
I've used propane to find vacuum leaks for years because it doesn't make a mess of your engine. There should be a noticeable increase in rpm's if there is a vacuum leak. Obviously if you blast so much gas that it finds it ways into the throttle body you will get a false indication of a leak. |
