| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Point taken. I can see how the interplay of lateral forces/reactions with roller cams/lifters could generate more noise than their shim and bucket cousins. You speak my language. No pictures even. Impressive.  I'd agree that the DOI is non-denominational. I could even agree that it is theistically secular, meaning that it is not a religious document per se, but that it does invoke our Creator/God and divine Providence as justification for its core message, that all men have the right to be free. The DOI doesn't just proclaim our right to freedom; it clearly and entirely depends upon our Creator/God for the justification of that right to freedom. Take our Creator/God out of the equation and you take away the justification of our rights. We don't want to do that do we?  | ||
| Davo |
Blake, I agree 100% with you on that, well said. | ||
| Joojoo |
and hopefully the creator doesnt want our motors to lose and time off of their lifespans....SO, if we ride the bikes pinging when they're hot, will we all eventually blow our motors? Blake, they know about this at the factory. Every 12 does it. Ive been on 5 of them now. They all do it. Ill bet ya that it wont hurt the motors.... Jack | ||
| Dr_greg |
Hmm...having designed both flat-faced and roller cams in my mechanisms class back in 1968, the whole point of using a cam is to make the cam follower (flat-faced or roller) follow a desired motion profile. That's why we have valve springs (or complementary closer cams in a desmo). To make sure the follower motion is dictated by the cam. If the cam follower actually parts company with the cam you no longer have the desired kinematic motion, and the motion of the cam follower is now dictated by dynamics. All kinds of effects can then affect the cam follower motion. I find it surprising that any designer would allow the cam follower to separate from the cam. This would be during the "valve closing" phase, and the valve better darn well close fast enough to avoid the piston. So what am I missing here? BTW, _these_ are the kind of discussions that I also like. | ||
| Snowscum |
Well not to break your guys train of thought. It is 70 degrees here today and we rode from Broomfield to Empire where it was in the 50's. Then back due to snow up on Berthoud pass. Came back to Central City then Peak to Peak to Lyons. From Lyons I split off and rode harder. Its 70 on the front range and as I got close to home it started to ping on hard excells. I was like wtf its cool out. So it seems to have gotten worse as I put more miles on this thing. Pretty fustrating! | ||
| 44mag2 |
Snowscum, Mine got worse too!! I was wondering if the pinging blew the CRAP out of my plugs! Call Buell CS so they know about it. In the mean time, try some NOS octane booster. It did not eliminate the ping, but it decreased it significantly. It will give you some peace of mind that you are minimizing the damage to your engine. I am dropping mine off next week for Buell to fix. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Davo, Blake, I like you guys. Look at the DOI. The signer James B. Wilson is a direct decedent from my mothers side. He actually was more of a Tory, and initially opposed the DOI, but later, realized that the crown was out of control. Later, his house was fired upon by the citizens of Pennsylvania with a cannon because he was a lawyer (sorry) and defended a Tory in court. The local militia intervened and saved his (and maybe mine) life. He had to leave town for a while for things to calm down. I have a feeling that I would have sided with Jefferson on most issues against my great, great, great ... great grandfather ... but hindsight is always 20/20. | ||
| Davo |
44mag2 Benjamin Rush, in reference to James Wilson, said: "His mind, while he spoke, was one of blaze of light. Not a word ever fell from his lips out of time, or out of place, nor could a word be taken from or added to his speeches without injuring them" He was approaching 34 when he signed!! Never mind the masses in the streets. It sounds like James Wilson was a great American! I for one am thankful for his courage! | ||
| Xbimmer |
My Uly is my personal "Emancipation Proclamation", and I love these references to the activies of our Colonist brothers and sisters 300+ years ago which provided the opportunity for the development of the freakin' best nation on the planet. Excuse me for my lack of humility... but what other country is there out there that answers the call to make things right, big-scale?  That being said, Dr. Greg is right IMHO. Cam followers have to follow cam lobes, not jump them. Unless I'm mistaken roller cams allow less rotational friction/resistance against the lifter/follower, allowing steeper cam profiles and stronger spring rates to control the valve return to seat. If I'm full of it flame on. | ||
| Davo |
Snowscum, 400+ mile hard ride to the mountains today. It was hot and I poured the coals to the Uly all day. Never pinged once. 55 MPG. Kept up with the metric guys! My timing mark is not even visible (just a hair past the right side of the window) when it should be straight up according to the factory. Plugs look good to! The fan sounds like its just about had it, but I got a spare in the garage. Recommend to your dealer to retard the CPS until the pinging stops 1mm (3 degrees)at a time | ||
| Davo |
Dr. Greg, What would you think if the same team of designers that signed off on the cams were to put 50 plus degrees of spark advance in an engine turning less than 5K? | ||
| Dr_greg |
Davo, That sounds like a bit much, based on my hot-rod days... Still curious about this "valve chatter" thing, however. I'm a noob to H-D engines; I'm surprised I haven't been told "TADT". | ||
| Blake |
I was imagining the extra noise being caused by play in the valvetrain, at the lifter due to lateral (side to side) free play in between lifter and lifter guide, and also in the cam drivetrain (gearteeth) via the valve springs backdriving the cams. Liquid cooling though does a lot to damp the noise created by clattering engine mechanicals. But I can see the lateral play in the lifter and the backdriving action at the lifter to cam to gear contributing to the clattering of our engines. I could be wrong. | ||
| Blake |
44mag, Very cool history you have! | ||
| Blake |
I just experienced a possible "eureka!" moment concerning the pinging issue. Our Ford Exploder developed a horrible pinging. Eventually even using high octane (93) would not prevent it. It turned out that the intake air flow sensor had accumulated a coating of very fine dust or powder or something. A few quick shots of contact cleaner to clean it off, reinstall and all the pinging was gone, even on regular old 87 octane. I have to clean it at least once a year. Yeah, it is downstream of the air filter. Somehow it still gets covered with very fine dust, I suspect it could be very fine pollen. Maybe some bikes are getting deposits on the intake air temperature sensor, causing it to read warmer than it should, thus, as with the Exploder, causing the EFI to mistakenly lean the mixture. Worth a check anyway. In a related corrolary, maybe engine heat is making its way to the sensor and heating it above ambient? If so, some adept application of insulation and/or IR reflective material/finish might help? If this turns out to be on track, y'all owe me a beer. Each one of ya! ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Dave |
You'll have many many beers comin' Blake. DAve | ||
| 44mag2 |
I noticed that when the engine is hot, the air temp sensor reads significantly higher than the outside air (like 10-15 degrees F). Blake may have a point. If the sensor is repositioned to the front of the air box, maybe it would provide a more accurate reading. I just read a ping fix on the net, where a guy was adding a series resistor to his air temp sensor to trick the ECM into thinking the outside air was colder, which richened the mixture and eliminated the ping. It goes along with Blakes reasoning. If you guys are ever in Oregon, the beers on me! | ||
| Snowscum |
So it leans out when the temp gets high? Why would it be programed to that? Or are you saying it doesnt do anything but should fatten up when the temp climbs? (Message edited by snowscum on August 28, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Oh man! Oregon beer is wonderful! Snowman, As temperature rises, the air expands, so you get less air and thus less oxygen for combustion, thus the engine requires less fuel. If the temp sensor is reading artificially high, the ECM will reduce fuel since it thinks the air is hotter and less dense. | ||
| Snowscum |
So if I spend the 450$ on the tune it would fix this problem since they remap on the dyno? | ||
| Blake |
What "tune" are you talking about? A Direct Link mapping/tune? If so, then yeah, probably. But if my wild guess has validity, you'd only need to shield or insulate the sensor from exposure to the heated bottom of the airbox. What muffler are you running? | ||
| 44mag2 |
Snowscum, I am taking my Uly to the dealer next week so the factory can work with the local technicians to fix the ping. Hopefully, they will offer a realistic fix, like a re-map of the timing curve. The timing curve probably needs to be retarded for hot temperatures. You could retard the curve by changing the static timing, like what Davo did. However, I am confident that Buell will offer a factory fix. Here are the options ... I have tried many. 1. Octane boost - helps a lot, but does not eliminate the ping 2. retard the static timing 3 degrees, also helps, but does not eliminate ping 3. Octane boost + retarded timing - not tried yet, but should work well, but I prefer not to worry about fuel additives 4. Retard the static timing 7 degrees - works per Davo's experience, but the factory claims it will ruin the engine (However, Davo has many many miles on his Uly with no issues at all, so I am skeptical about the factory opinion, especially since pinging will ruin the engine faster) 5. Right side scoop - this might reduce pinging while moving by keeping the temperature down, but will likely make it worse when sitting in traffic because the air from the fan won't be directed as well over the heads (my opinion, I don't want to start another scoop debate ) 6. Moving the air temp sensor to shield it from the engine heat (Blakes new idea) - not tried, but sounds promising 7. Solder a resistor in series with the air temp sensor to "trick" the ECM into richening the mixture. Rich mixtures ping less. Not tried, but has promise. 8. Intake manifold leak - make sure you test for it ... if you do have a leak, it can cause pinging. | ||
| 44mag2 |
oops, I forgot the last option ... 9. Remap the timing curves so they are slightly retarded for high engine temps - hopefully, this is what the factory will do. | ||
| Blake |
I can't see the high engine temp issue being the answer. Buell tests these bikes in the middle of Summer in the high desert in worse than parade duty scenarios to ensure that the cooling system and engine are up to such extreme hot thin-air conditions. If you haven't checked for intake manifold seal air leak, then I agree, that would be near the top of the list. Besides moving/shielding the sensor, check to ensure it is clean. What muffler? | ||
| Davo |
AIT and ET could be a fix. But if the VDSTS numbers for spark timing are correct then every other vehicle in the country should be able to put about 10-20 degrees of timing in their engines and then gas prices would plummet. The numbers are too high for pump fuel with 10% ethanol. I am going to run some more dynamic tests on the curve very soon. (Message edited by davo on August 29, 2006) | ||
| Snowscum |
The one that comes with the buell race kit is whats on there. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Maybe that is one of the reasons that Buell added more air inlet slots to the airbox cover. More air, better cooling, cooler sensor. | ||
| Dr_greg |
Blake, Sorry to keep going back to engineering here (beer is much more interesting and I am a homebrewer), but... There should be NO mechanical clearance in a hydraulic lifter valvetrain, right? And the side clearances on a cam follower are in the tenths (as in 0.0000X inches), so no rattling there. Hey Erik, why do these things rattle? | ||
| 44mag2 |
Blake, I agree that the cooling system should be fine, per the AZ testing facility. But lower engine temps do reduce/eliminate the pinging ... so if the engine was made to operate 10 degrees cooler, maybe it would eliminate the problem. The only way I know how to do that (without a re-design) is with the scoop, although it would exacerbate the problem at low speeds. Actually, a scoop that opens up when speeds are high and closes for slow speeds would be best. Airplane engines often have similar baffling that can be opened and closed depending on engine load and airspeed. If I had any fabrication talents whatsoever, I would build one. However, I agree that this is not the best approach, I think that a timing curve that is slightly retarded at high engine temps is the correct solution. I wish there was an aftermarket ECM we could buy with different timing curves for different situations. | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, You can change the timing curve with "Direct Link" but if you are not careful you can do some real damage if make radical changes to the timing map and even small changes to the fuel map. Al has them at American Sport Bike. There is an cheap alternative to changing the curve and that is moving the curve. Moving the curve corrects the problem. No out of pocket cost and it takes about two minutes. |
