| Author | Message | ||
     Imonabuss |
Dave, Or all the records held by Scott Guthrie's Yamaha, all set with a Buell fairing. Personally I think the XBRR looks really unique and cool. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think the photos of the XBRR in all black from Texas are gorgeous. The production paint scheme is a little obnoxious, but it is sure easy to identify the bikes on the banking. Blake, go look at 250 GP bikes, where there is a lack of power, and you will be shocked. Much more similarity to the XBRR than to a CBR600. I don't think aerodynamics counts a lot in MotoGP at the moment, where there is massive excess power. Qualifying times have very little to do in MotoGP with the fastest trap speed, but in the 250 class and other power limited classes (FX), there is much closer match. | ||
| Jima4media |
Imonabuss, You are exactly right. I always follow the trap speeds in MotoGP, and Rossi is usually one of the lower ones of the top 5 riders. The Yamaha M1 is clearly lower in performance than the Honda RC211Vs. Where he makes it up is in talent, and the bikes ability to hook up in the corners. Jim | ||
| Jlnance |
It's difficult to believe that ALL the other factories including those running MotoGP are missing the boat on fairing design. I concur with Dave. Aerodynamics don't show up on dynos. Marketing wants high RWHP numbers. So the money goes into engine development, not fairings. | ||
| Court |
And of course we all remember the company, in the warm sunny clime, that Erik eschewed that day he boarded the plane to go to work for Harley-Davidson. I'm betting he was thinking aerodynamically before he ever designed a fairing. | ||
| Ebear |
Gee......I'm thinking maybe there IS a reason Erik named most of our bikes after Fighter Planes.......(some Streetfighters DO catch alot of air..!!!).......I love the science of Aerodynamics.....and if you compare autos over the last 20 years you'll see we are finally accepting those crazy shapes of the "one-off experimental cars" of the 50's and 60's that alot of us motorheads salivated over as kids!(ok , some of us were young adults by then).  | ||
| Trojan |
Blake, go look at 250 GP bikes, where there is a lack of power, and you will be shocked. Much more similarity to the XBRR than to a CBR600. I don't think aerodynamics counts a lot in MotoGP at the moment, where there is massive excess power. Qualifying times have very little to do in MotoGP with the fastest trap speed, but in the 250 class and other power limited classes (FX), there is much closer match. Honda started the trend towards smaller and 'aerodynamicaly inefficient' fairings a few year ago because of the problems encountered with crosswind instability and turn in speed with the larger fairings. The only MotoGP team now using a 'slippery' fairing are the Team Roberts people, and they change chassis/aero packages on an almost race by race basis at the moment. I would expect the trend to come full circle in time and with the introduction of 800cc bikes next year it may be sooner rather than later, with some teams wishing to gain a few mph with slippery bikes rather than outright power. There is very little NEW thinking in aerodynamics, just take a look at some of the 1950's GP bikes like the V8 Guzzi for aerodynamically efficient fairings.  | ||
| Ikeman |
JMHO but I think the purpose of fairings on most of the racing bikes is to give the team a place to put sponsor decals not to slip through the wind. As far as the consumer versions it's to cover up all that ugly plumbing.  | ||
| Blake |
 What a great discussion. I'm learning stuff. So it seems like on a higher speed track, the new more aerodynamic fairing would be preferred, but maybe on tighter more technical venues, the old Pro-Thunder configuration might be advantageous? Black rules! | ||
| Jlnance |
Blake, you could see that at Daytona. The XBRR would pull away at low speeds (V Twin Torque), then get passed at mid range speeds (I4 HP), then overtake again at high speeds (drag). | ||
| Blake |
Jim, I'm not sure that the IL4's have an advantage in HP over the XBRR's. Five versus six gears might have had more to do with your observed scenario. Also, V-Twins generally enjoy superior tractability in rear wheel thrust thus often achieving better drive off the turns compared to their IL4 competition. | ||
| Blake |
Jimi, Nicky Hayden refers to his '06 RC11V as "the new bike" when relating the huge effort required to get it dialed in and working this year. The XBRR is indeed a new/different bike for the Buell racing teams this year. It is certainly new to Dealy's and Warrs. Compared to the previous Hal's and other's incarnations of Buell XB FX racing machines, the XBRR has a new frame, new engine, new fairing/bodywork, new swingarm, new suspension, new brakes, new front wheel, new tires, new ram air system, ... what else is there? (Message edited by Blake on August 10, 2006) | ||
| Anonymous |
Blake, Jim is right and you are right. It is available HP/lb throughout the band. Buells corner better than the 4's, and the controllable torque gets the drive out of the corners. But they suffer in midrange acceleration because of HP to weight, and that's where a six speed helps because you get to stay in a hotter part of the horsepower band. But in 6th gear all becomes more equal, and once again you would see us catching them the higher the speed got. Jeremy pulled 182 mph at Daytona! We are currently hurt at any track where the corners are short low speed ones(little time can be made up with the cornering advantage) and the top speeds low. We will do best at flowing tracks with high speed corners where a cornering advantage and power application at full lean can help. That's why any flaw in the injection map during roll on at full lean is so important, because that is where we can make time. It's really fun to be involved in this challenge, the only disappointment is when we are learning and trying and really improving and then we get little appreciation for it or worse yet really nasty degradation. Oh well, the world is made up of all kinds of people, some nice some not so nice. I hope the nice folks are enjoying our racing involvement! | ||
| M1combat |
We are Anony. A LOT. Thoroughly enjoyed walking around Daytona with Brankin and meeting all of the Buell guys that were there. Even got Erik to sign my hat just before the race . (Message edited by m1combat on August 10, 2006) | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Annoyn... Kudos for a good effort with the XBRR!!! Dang the naysayers, keep up the progress!!! | ||
| Blake |
Anony, Here's an idea: Start blaming everything that deviates from perfection on global warming. Then watch all the cheerleaders come out of the woodwork to support you.  I wish I were independently wealthy in a material way. | ||
| Court |
>>>I hope the nice folks are enjoying our racing involvement! We are...immensly. | ||
| Court |
>>>I hope the nice folks are enjoying our racing involvement! We are...immensly. | ||
| Road_thing |
Double your pleasure, eh Court?  rt | ||
| Slaughter |
Who you callin' nice?? BLAKE, BAN HIM! | ||
| Josh_cox |
We are all enjoying it. I think for the time available, these bikes/teams are doing fantastic. The nice thing is that all of the people involved are really passionate. The XBRR is definitely fighting an uphill battle at this point because the competition has a lot more experience in pro level racing. | ||
| Diablobrian |
The XBRR is on track with incremental improvements happening at each race. Things are actually going better than I what is reasonably expectable. I am very impressed with the effort that the teams, and Buell are making. Keep it up guys there are a lot of us rooting for you! | ||
| Elvis |
Anony, I, for one, am enjoying the hell out of Buell's racing efforts. Thanks!! It is amazing that there are so many people (most of whom have never raced competitively at any level and NONE of whom have designed and built production motorcycles) who think they know more than the people who are actually out there doing something. They're like idiots - standing on the side of the road, pants around their ankles - waving their 2 inch members and thinking the world is impressed. And occasionally, someone with a 1 inch member will tell them how cool they are. That sort of small minded crap isn't worth losing any sleep over. Just keep fighting the good fight. You'll probably never eliminate all the nay-sayers, but you'll be making the people that really matter happy. | ||
| Ebear |
We used to wait , impatiently , for MotoGP to see how Nicky and the Americans are doing.......and of course in AMA to make sure Spies was still putting it to Mladin........NOW the first thing I do is dig up ANYTHING I can find about Buells and Jezza.....Life is relly EXCITING right NOW.........THANKS GUYS!!! | ||
| Jimidan |
Anony sez: "It's really fun to be involved in this challenge, the only disappointment is when we are learning and trying and really improving and then we get little appreciation for it or worse yet really nasty degradation. Oh well, the world is made up of all kinds of people, some nice some not so nice. I hope the nice folks are enjoying our racing involvement!" Those bastards at Harley-Davidson! You would think that they could see that in spite of the DNF's and no-shows, that you guys are trying hard and give you all the appreciation you could stand...uh, a bonus would be nice, 'eh. Or maybe a little extra funding? Maybe you should not act like you are having so much fun. But, it's just plain wrong that the brass at the MoCo would degrade you guys. They just aren't very nice folks (of course, we already knew that from the way they have always treated us Buellers)! Just look at all of the dealerships that hate Buell so much that they refuse to even sell it. Then there are those dealers who make a tiny little space over in the back corner for the Buells and then steer potential customers to the real motorcycles, you know, Sporties. Why it just seemed like yesterday that I walked up to the parts counter at Daytona Harley-Davidson during Bikeweek, telling the guy, "I have a Buell...", at which time he cut me off and quipped, "That's your problem!". Yeah, you are right, there are some folks who work for the MoCo who aren't very nice. But they shouldn't be degrading their own employees, or maybe they don't consider Buell employees as "their's" either. Sounds like you've got that red-headed step-child feeling. Welcome to the club. My theory is that there are those in the company who really hate Buell (after all, it isn't a "real motorcycle") and will do everything in their power to destroy it. This includes diminishing Buells successes and playing up the failures. They obviously know nothing about the "Trilogy of Tech"! There are always going to be the nay-sayers, but I know it hurts even more when the mother company treats its wholly-owned subsidiary like a red-headed stepchild. We feel your pain. We have felt it all along. You know what I say? Screw 'em. Don't let it get you down...remember, we are rooting for you. Keep up the good work and pray for independent sponsorship. jimidan Beull's Biggest Fan | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
In racing- when people love you or people hate you, you are doing something right. It is when they just don't care that you are in trouble! Revel in their naysaying, use it to fuel your efforts. When you prove them wrong, you will taste the sweetness and grin- while they froth at the mouth from the bitterness of the pill they are swallowing. Their frothy rhetoric, created to protect their fragile egos, will take a new direction, but will sound hollow and pathetic to anybody not sharing that pill.... GO Buell!! Win or lose I am enjoying the show ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "I'm not sure that the IL4's have an advantage in HP over the XBRR's. Five versus six gears might have had more to do with your observed scenario. Also, V-Twins generally enjoy superior tractability in rear wheel thrust thus often achieving better drive off the turns compared to their IL4 competition." Surely, the Buell with 1340ccs has a huge advantage in torque, if not HP. I remember talking to Crevier at Daytona about the torque being so strong that it was chewing the tires up prematurely. I know my 88" with over 100 ft/lbs drives really well off of the corners...and chews up my rear tire pretty fast. Blake cont: "The XBRR is indeed a new/different bike for the Buell racing teams this year. It is certainly new to Dealy's and Warrs. Compared to the previous Hal's and other's incarnations of Buell XB FX racing machines, the XBRR has a new frame, new engine, new fairing/bodywork, new swingarm, new suspension, new brakes, new front wheel, new tires, new ram air system, ... what else is there?" Good points. I read in Fuell that the frame was "virtually stock, which says worlds about how advanced the standard XB street bike chassis actually is." It has "the same steering geometry and components as any standard XBR or XBS you might find on the showroom floor. It includes all of the notable features of the XB design, including the fuel-in-the-frame and oil-in-the-swingarm. The only real difference are the side panels, which use the stamping from the Ulysses of Lightning models. And that is just for the added fuel capacity, not for stiffness." And that the "rear swingarm starts life as a standard 2006 XB swingarm...then we machine the end off and weld on machined parts that allow for axle adjustment. We do that only because we're running chain drive." Hals and Rich's bikes had this swingarm too, didn't they? Also, "Rounding out the front-end assembly is the new cast magnesium wheel" that "is essentially just a magnesium version of a stock XB front wheel...". Have these things evolved since the article was released? I know it takes a while to dial in new components, even relatively minor ones, as they all must play together well, especially at this level of competition. My point is that the latest iteration of public press releases stress that this bike is not a new model, but rather "The Buell XBRR is a limited-edition production racing motorcycle based on the Firebolt XB12R, which is reworked at the factory into the XBRR for use in closed-course competition. It offers private racers a professional-level, race-ready, production-based platform." So maybe we shouldn't be stressing how "new" the bike is...never know who might be listening. Also, it appears that the basic race mods to the XBRR were tried and true developments that Hals and Innovative Tech implemented and tested on their bikes. The day in 2004 when Mike Cicotto took a fourth (that is a 4th in an FX race with factory Hondas) by beating Opie Caylor in what I thought was the best race I had seen in a long time (neck and neck, lap after lap), the XB had a big 8 piston ZTL caliper on it that looked remarkably like the "new" one. If I am not mistaken, the XBs of Hals and Rich's had 1340cc extremely modified XB engines, which were really pretty reliable by Buell racing standards. Cronwrath's bike reportedly ran for a whole season without a single engine failure. These bikes were nearly always in the top ten that year. Weren't many of the "new" engine's design characteristics rooted in Hals and Rich's testing and development? Yet we are talking like this is the first year that Buell has been in FX racing. I would like to see Hal's and Cronwrath's teams get a little more credit here for everything that is old is new again. Those old guys were very successful in FX racing by XBRR standards (top ten finishes). Granted, I believe that the level of competition has risen this year to where it is extremely difficult to break into the top 7. But I don't want to see my heroes (Rich and Hal's) snubbed either. I think it will be interesting to see how Rich modifies the XBRR to make it better, as he is very intelligent and has never been known to leave well enough alone. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Scott_in_nh says: "In racing- when people love you or people hate you, you are doing something right. It is when they just don't care that you are in trouble! Revel in their naysaying, use it to fuel your efforts. When you prove them wrong, you will taste the sweetness and grin- while they froth at the mouth from the bitterness of the pill they are swallowing. Their frothy rhetoric, created to protect their fragile egos, will take a new direction, but will sound hollow and pathetic to anybody not sharing that pill.... GO Buell!! Win or lose I am enjoying the show " The moral of the story is: Better living through chemistry. Not bad but not too pithy either. I think that there is a reason that the presidential primaries start in NH.  | ||
| Jimidan |
Elvis is not dead sez: "Anony, I, for one, am enjoying the hell out of Buell's racing efforts. Thanks!! It is amazing that there are so many people (most of whom have never raced competitively at any level and NONE of whom have designed and built production motorcycles) who think they know more than the people who are actually out there doing something. They're like idiots - standing on the side of the road, pants around their ankles - waving their 2 inch members and thinking the world is impressed. And occasionally, someone with a 1 inch member will tell them how cool they are. That sort of small minded crap isn't worth losing any sleep over. Just keep fighting the good fight. You'll probably never eliminate all the nay-sayers, but you'll be making the people that really matter happy." I wonder what Freud would say about your fixation with prepubescent "members"? Hmmm. Did you love your Maw? Did you love your Paw? Did you have an older brother that was mean like that? | ||
| Davegess |
Check out this, very interesting http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Aug/060811a.htm | ||
| Rubberdown |
Thanks Davegess, that really is interesting. Those changes ought to HOT up the series quite a bit. Time for the Triumph 675 to step up to the plate. (Message edited by rubberdown on August 11, 2006) |
