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Dbird29
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 01:00 am: | 
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Bought a great '82 Yamaha 750 Seca brand new in '86 at a bargain price. The wife got a '82 Yamaha XV920RJ brand new in '87 again at a great price.
The Japanese screwed up and we took advantage.
Got the Buell because it wasn't just another Japanese widget. |
Pisymbol
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 04:24 am: |
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Japanese bikes are not the "bleeding edge" and statistically, right now, the Japanese manufacture the most reliable cars on the planet (I believe yet again Lexus is the most reliable luxury car made). I won't make an emphatic statement with respect to bikes but I suspect dollar to donuts, Japanese bikes are probably more reliable than their European and American counterparts.
H-D isn't junk. They make great bikes. HOWEVER, an HD bike's primary focus is cosmetics and streetability. Plain and simple. These priorities are based on market and what a typical HD customer expects. The average HD customer isn't really that concerned about overall performance in terms of handling and top-end when comparing bikes. That's not to say that those two metrics are completely ignored by HD's R&D department. There not. However, I believe ultimately, the focus is on cosmetics and preserving the BRAND. HD's most valuable asset is its BRAND, make NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. For HD, BRAND is everything and this aspect of business is reflected in all of their products.
I don't know why H-D guys get so bent out of shape about the "tech argument." Its all about priorities and I GUARUNTEE that your PRIMARY reason on buying a Harley was not performance or technology - more like chrome! 
I've always thought that Buell was a way to make more performance oriented H-D dervied products without sacrificing the H-D BRAND. I mean from a dealer and business perspective, I think if Buell's were branded H-D's, life would be a lot better in terms of dealer support and overall marketing for BMC. Of course H-D would never brand anything that didn't have the true core values of the company in mind. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 07:39 am: |
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>>>>These priorities are based on market and what a typical HD customer expects.
NEW Coke |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 08:03 am: |
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I think EVERYONE remembers the last time Harley tried to market a European style sport bike under their own brand name (XLCR)... |
Reddog3624
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 09:50 am: |
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Yeah, They're very valuable collectors items today. |
Grimel
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 11:18 am: |
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I don't know why H-D guys get so bent out of shape about the "tech argument." Its all about priorities and I GUARUNTEE that your PRIMARY reason on buying a Harley was not performance or technology - more like chrome! : D
Because of the morons that continually blather low/old tech means junk. even if the various Jap is great people don't want to admitt it H-D builds 1) a high quality bike and 2) a bike with the least req maint. Honday USED to make a low maint bike. What's the maint schedule for the 'wing? FJR? even the non-Jap BMW someone brought into the discussion?
You need to phrase your last quoted comment in the form of a wager. |
Josh_cox
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 11:53 am: |
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I would love to see the cost of maintenance argument here as well. Really, how much do you think running the valves every 6k on a BMW costs? I had an R6 that had 12k in warranty work in 10k miles (all commuting, this bike is gone now you can bet). Out of the 12 months I had that bike, three months were in the shop! H-D and Buell bikes are very low maintenance and rewarding for the RIDER, not for the person who loves their bike in the shop all of the time, wants to adjust/lubricate a chain every 500 miles, accepts that after 25,000 miles their engine really is worn out (i4 rockets), or who has to have a bike that "can" turn a lap time one tenth of a second faster than his buddy's. Most of the work that goes through our shop is modifying the bikes to make them different than how they come from the factory (people want their bike to their own design, not showroom), not maintaining them. |
Pisymbol
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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Grimel: Back your comment up. Historically H-D hasn't been really known for reliability (see 70s, 80s, and early 90s). Its only recently that I'm aware of that anyone is even mentioned the word Harley and reliability in a sentence (btw, I believe Harley had spent a lot of R&D and corporate effort to restore the word "reliabilty" to Harleys after the 80s and early 90s).
Btw, which bike do you think gets beat down more, a Harley or a I4 crotch rocket? Shall we go into demographics as well? This really is apples to oranges here.
Look, H-D isn't low tech, I would say its OLDER tech and the bikes are certainly not garbage. There really nice cruisers and last I checked the number one manufacture in the US (certainly cruisers but I think overall).
Court: Please enlighten me on why IN GENERAL people buy Harleys?
Man, I could of sworn it was for the look, sound, and sub-culture and not their crazy top end and fantastic cornerning ability... |
Adamcooney
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 01:27 pm: |
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Who cares about crazy top end unless you're racing or doing something illegal? Last I knew the speed limit on the highways here in NY were 65mph. Again, not saying 1 is better over the other but if you're doing 100mph on a highway then you deserve to get hit by a truck or something of that nature. But that's a whole other issue.
And what are you trying to compare, harley cruisers to japanese sport bikes? It's stupid comparing the two as they're completely different machines. I'm building my mutant as I'd rather just cruise down some main drags nice and slow and be loud and obnoxious since that's what puts a smile on my face. Not cutting in and out of traffic and doing 80mph around turns. |
Pisymbol
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 01:41 pm: |
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Adam: Like I said, apples to oranges. I'm just stating the reliability argument is more complicated than a lot of people in this thread have made it out to be. When one compares reliability you must consider application, demographics, etc. |
Onemanclan
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 05:30 pm: |
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I would make the definition of reliability fit the 'layman' perception rather than preparing a scientific analysis of it. In other words, how many times have you been stranded, or has it had to be at the shop for recalls? How many times does it have to be tuned up in 10,000 mi? How much does all that cost (my time and my money)? How many models still are on the road from given years? (I know that last one has many more factors involved than just reliability, but it would be interesting to know)... |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 08:43 pm: |
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The absolute worst quality motorcycle I've ever owned was a Yamaha. Horrible. Dubbed it "The Nightmare." Fuel tank rusted through, twice (two fuel tanks)! The stator cratered twice within 15K miles. Had to clean/rebuild carburetors more times than I can count. It ran like crap and on a hot day in Texas it would overheat and belch steaming hot fluid all over the place.
I still enjoyed riding it. I'd enjoy putting a bullet in it to. Someone else's problem now, probably some scrap yard somewhere.
My Dad's Gold Wing started belching white smoke at just over 40K miles.
Care to hear about all the impecable quality Japanes bikes I've seen being pushed back to the pits at the track? My Buell hasn't been perfect, close enough though. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 08:44 pm: |
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Back on topic...
Way to go Harley-Davidson Incorporated! |
Grimel
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 09:54 pm: |
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Historically H-D hasn't been really known for reliability (see 70s, 80s, and early 90s).
Okay, now I am offically old. HISTORICALLY, H-D was THE choice for reliable bikes. Then came the dark days of AMF. Then came the buy back and many years fixing the AMF screw up.
Btw, which bike do you think gets beat down more, a Harley or a I4 crotch rocket?
In reality? Both. Lack of riding with short hard bursts isn't good for either bike. I put more abuse on my bike in 6 months than any 4 of my co-works COMBINED do in a year. Oh, and I've been going round and round with touring bikes in THIS thread. The I-4's is a different thread. :P
not their crazy top end and fantastic cornerning ability
I hate to even broach this subject, but, since you mentioned it. I defy anyone to leave me on my cruiser on any road at any time while staying on the edges of being legal.
Let me have an Electra Glide for a couple of months and I'll make the same offer.
My last comment on cornering and top end - people buy crazy top end because they can't corner and need to make up time someplace. 99.9% of today's riders can't put an Electra Glide/Goldwing to it's limits much less an R1. |
Grimel
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 09:59 pm: |
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I would love to see the cost of maintenance argument here as well. Really, how much do you think running the valves every 6k on a BMW costs? I had an R6 that had 12k in warranty work in 10k miles (all commuting, this bike is gone now you can bet). Out of the 12 months I had that bike, three months were in the shop! H-D and Buell bikes are very low maintenance and rewarding for the RIDER, not for the person who loves their bike in the shop all of the time, wants to adjust/lubricate a chain every 500 miles,
1st, install a chain oiler. 2nd learn to work on your own bike (yes, I mentioned maint cost) the cost is TIME and parts (buddy just spent $100 on a shim kit). Every freakin' 6k check. Might not need anything, but you have to check it. Some bikes you can stretch it to 2x the check interval with enough data points. 3rd, even more annoying than the short mileage interval is the amount of body parts that have to be removed to DO the maint. I swear it takes a near complete tear down of the Goldwing, BMW, FJR, Concours, etc to get to anything. |
Grimel
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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if you're doing 100mph on a highway then you deserve to get hit by a truck or something of that nature. But that's a whole other issue.
You might want to avoid the southeast then. Try going 70 on the highway here and we'll be hearing about your funeral. |
Sauron_za
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 04:52 am: |
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That's the great thing about |South Africa, our speed limit is 75mph so 100mph is actually considered "slow" by some people around these parts. |
Josh_cox
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:48 am: |
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Grimel:
I have worked as a tech before. I had four years of formal education and have a degree for working on motorcycles. I know how to do my own work. This bike was under warranty. Legally I could not do the warranty work.
I understand what you can let slide. Thanks for the info though. BTW it only took 5 minutes to remove the side fairings and fuel tank from the R6. The pain is trying to get through the Delta box frame to the cylinder head.
Oh and... HDI/HOG is doing great. Congrats! |
Grimel
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 04:50 pm: |
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Legally I could not do the warranty work.
Sorry I saw warrenty and read maint. $12k in warrenty work would have me swearing off a combo. I won't ever own another Chrysler FWD 4cyl because of just such a nightmare (how they treated me being half the reason).
I'm slowly going batty with the ankle. I may just go ride anyhow. |
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