| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
The current Buell engines remind me of the General Motors efforts in the 70's, 80's and 90's. The 1950's small block got electronic controls on the carbs, then they got TBI, then they got port injection with dry manifolds. Meanwhile, they used the same 40 year-old platform instead of just desiging something correctly from scratch. I never understood that mentality. Buell obviously designs with ingenuity and passion, and is open to new ideas, as evidenced in the chassis. Brilliant deviations from the industry norms and they work exceptionally well. Then there is the HD engine..... Again, great niche engine, but certainly not world class. | ||
| Jaimec |
There's lots of reasons I like the Buell engine and none of them have anything to do with performance (other than the flat, mile-wide powerband). Air cooled, no screwing with a radiator, water pump, attendant fluids, etc. Only two cylinders and two spark plugs. No valves to adjust. One throttle body, so no balancing required. If I was REALLY interested in high performance, for the same price as my Lightning Long I could've bought a brand new YZF-R6. I got EXACTLY what I was looking for: a fun, comfortable, practical bike I can ride every day on real world streets and still have fun at the track when I want. Plus, it attracts attention wherever I go, because it's NOT something most people see every day. | ||
| Spatten1 |
"Air cooled, no screwing with a radiator, water pump, attendant fluids, etc." That is one of my current peaves. With all that lack of cooling medium came my base gasket leak. I am assuming that it is the result of expansion inherent in an air cooled engine. I'd rather have a radiator than have to pull my engine to change the gasket. If it is caused by something else, I'd love to know what, and If I can do anything about it. Besides, who here looks for a car or truck with an air cooled engine because the liquid cooling automotive systems are so unreliable? | ||
| Brucelee |
"I am assuming that it is the result of expansion inherent in an air cooled engine" Big assumption. Does that we all have this problem? If so, I am not aware of it. Back to the comment above on the GM staying with the small block engine. In case you haven't noticed, it is now one of the best engines in the world. That is actually one thing GM has done right. | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
i say more power to mr. Michael Czysz..if u build something that works then our chosen bike builder will be pushed even harder to upgrade....ur bike looks nice...hope it runs someday  .....thats what this country is all about....free trade and supply and demand....i dont know anybody that would pay 50 grand for a street bike but then again a few years ago i didnt know anybody that would pay 30 grand for a cruiser.....but if the technology works and the bike sells...then the bar will be raised and we all benefit from that....just like erik raised the bar for the american sportbike market or actualy created one where the wasnt any....i do like the concept of that motor...water cooled 150 horse...if u think we couldnt use something like that then ur stupid....that dosent mean that we couldnt have an air cooled motor too i spose....but cmon even vw went water cooled like last century..maybe if as a collective vioce everybody said we need something like the highland that works we wouldnt still be stuck with what we have..im sorry but to turn out a bike the the XB's with a motor like it has is just lazy and backward thinking....they should have an engine to match the rest of the bike....sooo court u being the resident moutpiece and see'r of all things buell why do we still have an underpowered air cooled motor..just a question and my uninformed opinion before u tear me apart.... | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
I'm on a lot of bike sites and I've not seen any that have the lack of tolerance, or volatility exhibited here. apparently you haven't visited the cycle world forum... | ||
| Pwnzor |
My engine doesn't leak, seep, weep, ooze or otherwise exude any fluids. Build me a full size cargo van with an air-cooled rotary engine and I'll drive it all the way to Thunderdome. With all that lack of cooling medium came my base gasket leak Doubtful. More likely you don't bring the engine to operating temp before you ride. That is what causes base gasket leaks. GM's small block 350 is a mechanical masterpiece. Simple, yet versatile. It can be a muscle bound mud bogger like this:  OR it can pull an 11,000 pound motorhome and a 4,500 pound van over the Rocky Mountains at 60mph steady while getting 11 mpg. I've got 250k miles on this rig, and it only ever needed a valve job.  Tell me again how inferior this motor is? | ||
| Pwnzor |
"I'm on a lot of bike sites and I've not seen any that have the lack of tolerance, or volatility exhibited here. " If you go to a sporting event, you should expect to hear the home-team's cheerleaders rooting for them. | ||
| M1combat |
"The current Buell engines remind me of the General Motors efforts in the 70's, 80's and 90's. The 1950's small block got electronic controls on the carbs, then they got TBI, then they got port injection with dry manifolds. Meanwhile, they used the same 40 year-old platform instead of just desiging something correctly from scratch. I never understood that mentality. " Ever been in a Z06? Ever been in a Mustang with one of those new fangled modular V6's? Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Mustang but really... The Z06 is AMAZING. Engine and handling... | ||
| Court |
Molly: I think you've pretty well summed up my feelings as well. I think, purely personal, that we'll see Buell take on the engine issue some day. But you know, last week I watched the cutest little Asian fellow snarf down 50 hot dogs at Coney Island in 10 minutes. He is an unchallenged success, a repeat world champion and ya know how he did it.....one dog at a time. Watch a juggler sometime, notice that they are always (this'll bring the wise cracks out) holding two balls? I've always had a saying in project management to never have more balls in the air than you can manage. Think of where Buell was a few short years ago. I have a shoebox, as a result of all the Buells I owned, full of OFFICIAL NOTICE letters from Buell. Times were challenging. I'm wondering where they'd be then if instead of "step back, take a deep breath and look at how we are doing things", they'd kept their head down and been working on a poorly funded, thought out and executed engine project. A German company (sometimes improperly attributed to having designed an engine for HD) had been previously retained for engine design. Although the program never spewed forth an engine, it did prove one thing. Engine design is INCREDIBLY difficult to manage costs, weight and various design metrics. Engine programs tend to run wild like a bull with a bottle in its butt, consuming money at about the same rate as the shuttle sucks fuel. If I were Buell (And I am not, have no official capacity nor authority to speak for) I'd chase down my "dream frame"...I mean, that designs been around a long time...get that baby in the consumer market, ironed out, ballooned to address fuel capacity concerns, etc....ditto my snappy ZTL system.....get rid about about 34 opportunities for manufacturing to introduce "stacking"....next make my EFI system the envy of the BMW surging punished crowd and get to the point where my bike may not be the most powerful (that's coming) or the fastest, but scores some "best cornering" marks and is basically bulletproof. Next I roll out a long dreamt of racing effort to start giving the PR folks some fodder for what's to come. I go into a dark room, look at the notes from talking to my customers and reshape my owners group. No one is the world is as close to their owners, we like ours, we want closer. Then....with the onset of a general motostasis, systems in balance.......I take my most talented in the world eclectic group of engineers and . . . . . Opps...late for a noon meeting. | ||
| Pwnzor |
AND ANOTHER THING. The Vortec V-6 in that minivan actually pulled the motorhome out of the mud once, had all 4 rears buried to the axle. | ||
| Spike |
Off topic . . .
That 40 year-old platform has now become the LS7 which powers the new Z06 Corvette. 7.0 liters, 7k rpm, dry sump, Ti con rods, sodium-filled valves, delivering 505hp and 475ft-lbs while netting EPA rated 26mpg. In the aftermarket we've already seen this motor putting down some 500hp to the wheels with only bolt-on modifications. Best of all, this motor is available from your local Chevy dealer with a warranty for less than the price of a base Porsche 911. That 40 year-old design has become what is arguably the meanest NA production engine on the market. | ||
| Milar |
Jaimec wrote: >There's lots of reasons I like the Buell >engine and none of them have anything to >do with performance (other than the flat, >mile-wide powerband). Air cooled, no >screwing with a radiator, water pump, >attendant fluids, etc. Only two cylinders >and two spark plugs. No valves to adjust. >One throttle body, so no balancing >required. Amen brother. I owned both 2 valve and 4 valve ducs. Unless you are on a track, the old air cooled 2 valve is a better motor. If you need alot of hp on the street you are making up for a lack of skills. The secret to riding quick on the street isn't hp, it's higher cornering speeds. On a twisty public road, the rider who rides a steady 75 will run away from a rider who slows to 45 in the corners and has to twist the throttle to catch up. If Buell builds a so called "world class" motor that just moves the power band up the rpm scale and is more expensive to maintain, I wouldn't buy one. Give me brakes and handling. M | ||
| Pwnzor |
Court you must not know how to juggle. I am an avid juggler, and you're not always holding two balls. It's intermittent between 1 and 2 balls in the hand at a time. --HIJACK ALERT--  | ||
| Bomber |
Me, I'd LOVE to see more US-based motorcycle manufacturers . . . competition indeed improves the breed -- whether it's at the track or in the marketplace -- hell, check that US part, I'd love to see more bike brands, period! We are being very well served by the manufacturers in place today, but more would liven up the scene, and more niche players would increase the kinds of bikes available wrt under the engine fuel container, as with most things, been done before, well, and poorly . . . depending on where the roll center is on the scoot, it could work very nicely -- course, it could be a nightmare, as well sadly, the poorly managed Exelsior and Indian fiascos have made it far more difficult to raise capital for motor-driven companies that do not have a record of shipping actual product -- this likely helped kill the new Norton (which looked like sure things, from a motorcycle point of view) lastly, I tend to be very suspicious of folks who, when asked about their product, start bashing others in order to build their's up -- I apply this criteria to manufacturers, politicians, and it has yet to fail me -- I'd LOVE to see Polaris/KTM suceed in the marketplace -- I'd love to see Highland bring some of their products over here (their Streettracker is just what I've been trying to build myself for years) -- of course, I'd love to see the garage band from down the street get a contract and be treated well by a major label, too -- | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Someone said, on one of the motorcycle programs recently on TV that with almost all riding of bikes the word "fun" is always in the equation. To that end and after many years and many different kinds of cars and bikes to just ride or drive to have fun my most fun has come with two "old technology" factory vehicles, a 427 Vette and my Buell M2 with its new frame tech. and old tech. engine. I really love the great technology of todays cars and bikes but they still don't give me the thrill of those two rides and with minimum maintenance and upkeep. Fun, Period. | ||
| Whodom |
That 40 year-old platform has now become the LS7 which powers the new Z06 Corvette. 7.0 liters, 7k rpm, dry sump, Ti con rods, sodium-filled valves, delivering 505hp and 475ft-lbs while netting EPA rated 26mpg. In the aftermarket we've already seen this motor putting down some 500hp to the wheels with only bolt-on modifications. Best of all, this motor is available from your local Chevy dealer with a warranty for less than the price of a base Porsche 911. That 40 year-old design has become what is arguably the meanest NA production engine on the market. The current SB Chevy is indeed an impressive power plant and I believe indicates pretty closely the direction Buell is headed. IIRC there is not a single significant dimension in common between the 1955 small block and the current product (and few or no interchangeable parts), but the basic architecture is the same. As someone here has said before, the real "pushing" of the limits of the basic 45 degree V-twin, unitary construction, 4-cam, air-cooled powerplant has pretty much just begun. I for one am very interested to see how much further Buell can go with it. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
That is one of my current peaves. With all that lack of cooling medium came my base gasket leak. I am assuming that it is the result of expansion inherent in an air cooled engine. Yes and the leaks result from lack of warm up. I'd rather have a radiator than have to pull my engine to change the gasket. You have to warm those engines up too, or I'm sure eventually the same thing will happen. I've got almost 12k on my '03 Firebolt, and there isn't even a hint of oil around the cylinders, or anywhere else on the engine. I idle my bike for at least 5 min before going anywhere when it is cold. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Court Canfield sez: If I were Buell (And I am not, have no official capacity nor authority to speak for) I'd chase down my "dream frame"...I mean, that designs been around a long time...get that baby in the consumer market, ironed out, ballooned to address fuel capacity concerns, etc....ditto my snappy ZTL system.....get rid about about 34 opportunities for manufacturing to introduce "stacking"....next make my EFI system the envy of the BMW surging punished crowd and get to the point where my bike may not be the most powerful (that's coming) or the fastest, but scores some "best cornering" marks and is basically bulletproof. Quoted and repeated purely to make sure everyone reads it. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yep, that part of the plan is checked off on the list, Court! | ||
| Anonymous |
Took on heck of a long time, too. When we built that first frame in the mid 80's, I couldn't have imagined it was going to take nearly 20 years to get it into production! I guess I should have put that bike in the magazines and told them it'd be in production in a year, eh? But the speed of clicking off items on the list is much, much faster now! | ||
| Blake |
From the little I know, Buell has graduated from clicking-off to a full on hum. Is "humming-along" better than "clicking-off"?  Just a little light-hearted humor on account of my head hurts after reading all the heated yet interesting dialogue here. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
This has been a heckuva thread....emotional, yet very informing too. I've learned alot from this discourse, even though some of it has been "heated" I guess you could say. Court sez: get rid about about 34 opportunities for manufacturing to introduce "stacking".... Can someone smarter than me explain that? I'm not familiar with manufacturing process and its related jargon. | ||
| Spatten1 |
"More likely you don't bring the engine to operating temp before you ride." I'll bet you are right, that is probably why my base gasket is leaking. If so, I'm even more annoyed. I was not aware that my motorcycle needed to be at operating temperature before I could ride it. This is the 21st century for crying out loud. I can't just let my bike idle for a full three minutes and then ride? That pretty much sucks. Now I'm even more convinced we need a redesigned engine. I do argee with the posters above that it was best to get the chassis right first, and work in reasonable steps. I know engine development is a very labor intensive and high buck process. However, HD makes enough money selling underwear and coffee cups to get it done. I hope to see an awesome state-of-the-art light and powerful American engine in the future. Buell's chassis design deserves it. | ||
| Court |
>>>I should have put that bike in the magazines and told them it'd be in production in a year, eh? And allowed me the wonderful opportunity to by an attractive turtle neck. Let's face it, I'm pretty much a Buell fanatic, but those fashions .... just... just ... just ... SIZZZLE! When ya think about it, it's not much different that these chopper thingies...if it looks good who cares. "Stacking". Yes, Blake, from our technical division will be here as soon as he slips into his lab coat, to explain what "stacking" is. The "short ill-educated construction worker" version....when you join a part with say a tolerance of +/- 0.003" to a part with +/- 0.005" tolerance the world is pretty cool if both those ranges (0.006" and 0.010 respectively) are kinda average in the middle. Assume for a minute that each is at the FAR end of it's range and you are getting ready to attach it to something. Anyway..double discs brakes add to a motorcycle about 1,492 things that CAN go wrong. The Buell rotor is mounted to a surface machined in the same plane as the hub....ah, he's got the goggles and coat on. . Take it Blake. . . | ||
| Whodom |
I'll bet you are right, that is probably why my base gasket is leaking. If so, I'm even more annoyed. I was not aware that my motorcycle needed to be at operating temperature before I could ride it. Tramp, owner of the highest mileage Buell of which I'm aware is a big proponent of warming the engine up before riding hard. Crank the bike, let it idle while you put on your gear, by the time you're ready to ride, it's warm enough to ride. Take it easy for the first few miles to let it come completely up to temperature, THEN feel free to hammer it. I think he's onto something, so I practice this approach too. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'm sure you are right about the warm up. I've also heard that excessive idle is bad for engines, on this site. That the fuel will wash the lube off of the cylinder walls at lower RPM. That is one of the reasons that my warm up time is only 3 to 5 minutes. How do I balance the need for long warm up time with what I've heard are problems with too much idle. My biggest concern is track days, where even the warm up lap needs high RPM to keep from getting rear-ended by the other bikes on the straights? | ||
| Diablobrian |
"I guess I should have put that bike in the magazines and told them it'd be in production in a year" Well I guess that answers the question of whether or not Erik reads/posts on Badweb. Unless I'm misreading the post since it wasn't stated as "we" but as "I". | ||
| Midknyte |
Can someone smarter than me explain that? I'm not familiar with manufacturing process and its related jargon. Imagine you are making a 12" ruler out of 12 one inch pieces. Your manufacturing tolerance is plus or minus 1/4", meaning each of those pieces may actually be 3/4" to 1 1/4" in length. Put 'em all together and you don't have that 12" ruler as intended. It could be as short as 9" or as long as 15", and certainly anywhere in between... Now in an engine [or whatnot], each of those pieces will have much smaller tolerances, but you get the drift. The putting together of multiple pieces ends up with a literal "stacking" of the tolerances... (Message edited by midknyte on July 07, 2006) | ||
| Court |
Good Lord Bradley . . . did you think up that example? That's pure genius. I listened to Erik Buell explain it and I kept falling asleep and off the chair. I nominate you as "Official Buell Translator". Well done man. . . . if you want to have some fun, take a close look at the front end of one of those wonderful bikes that has more rotors than wheels on it. Look closely. Think "low bidder". Try to imagine the things that ALL have to go PERFECT to make those front brakes work like they were engineered. How ya feel about life now? The dual disc has been around for a long time. By my calculations in about three years it will have enjoyed a life span roughly equal to that of the ignition retard lever on the steering column that folks were told, years ago, was essential and the auto could not operate without it. |
