| Author | Message | ||
     Dago |
Oh cry me a river with all of the hardships Erik has gone through, Court. He doesn't hold a patent on bleeding knuckles, bruised egos, drained bank accounts, or bright ideas. There's absolutely no reason to belittle anyone elses' efforts in doing anything they love, provided they're fighting the good fight. "wannabe hobbyist"...give me a break. I expect you to be above comments like that being the public mouth of such a humble man. And how in the hell do you know what kind of "big picture" these "wannabe hobbyists" have? Could the same bleak outlook not have been painted on Erik while in his initial stages? It probably was. Was that just, fair, or accurate? Hopefully this Roehr guy (or whoever else) does have the big picture in mind. Then maybe he can mass produce and sell his vision world wide. If that time comes, then maybe he too will have a tag-along turned public mouth speaking so emotionally on his behalf. Go Buell! Go Roehr! Go MotoSizzle! Go WhoeverWillMakeACoolBikeForMeToRide!!!!!! | ||
| Court |
>>>If that time comes, then maybe he too will have a tag-along turned public mouth speaking so emotionally on his behalf. I presume you've invested. I admire folks who put their money where there mouths are. Investment opportunities are available. Boy...one of these guys succeeds in leaving the launch pad, I'm going to have to eat some big crow.  | ||
| Court |
By the way "wannabe hobbyist" is a perfect description of Mike Czysz. | ||
| Dago |
>> I presume you've invested. Nope. I just find it hypocritical for someone in your unique position to bash other individuals' efforts and felt the need to express my opinion. | ||
| Jscott |
Pretty impressive "wannabe hobbyist" who comes from an architecural background and then design and build a bike that Alan Cathart would describe as "may well be the most neutral-handling bike I've ever ridden". He didn't just go grab an existing engine design either. | ||
| Glitch |
Sounds like a personality clash to me, but what do I know? I don't know any of these people personally, I only have the internet to go by. | ||
| Court |
You probably knew I've been closely following another motorcycle start up as well, right? These are several I am aware of who don't dance about Laguna Seca having highly paid PR firms pen "well, if it DID run" press releases. I'm not sure anything in the following paragraph could properly be labeled "bashing".
I think Mike Czysz is a talented guy, I'd love to have him build a house for me. I think, personally, think he has his motorcycle horse-cart linear configuration confused. I'm a huge fan of "I did it the old fashioned way....I built a motorcycle first". I like DOING before I market. When I had my own brush with commercial adversity and was checkmated by the big-boys guess what . . . while they weren't looking I showed up as #1 in Dallas and they were in KC asleep at the wheel. My favorite Steve Jobs quote "real geniuses ship" could be morphed to "doing trumps saying". I just tire, be mindful it's not the people of the designs so much as I've grown weary of folks like the Hanlons who were incredibly nasty and cited their success as assured touting that they wouldn't make the same mistakes Erik Buell did. Good...we all have divergent opinions. I love the internet. By the way, you convinced me, I'm going to buy a shirt, I've joined their club and bought a hat. . I wanted a shirt but there website is screwed up. Sent them a note to get it fixed too. I remember how frustrating it was for Buell having the first website among ANY motorcycle manufacturer. (Message edited by court on July 06, 2006) | ||
| Dago |
Go Court! | ||
| Glitch |
My favorite is I want to put a ding in the universe. And My girlfriend always laughs during sex - no matter what she's reading. But to get more on topic, You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new. All quotes are Steve Jobs | ||
| Kootenay |
If it wasn't for H-D,Buell may very well be out of business now,If not for H-D's money,the XB would not be I believe this is true. But so what? All these companies, Li's new Vincent and Dreer's Norton, Fischer and Roehr and MotoCzysz, need (or needed) capital (Investment Opportunities Still Exist..) Some failed to get capital, and are now gone... Buell needed capital, too--and rather than looking to private investors, he did the smart thing IMO and went to a company which had the $$$, understood the market, and with which he had ties--H-D. H-D is not a private investor who will pull the plug as soon as the ROI gets a little iffy--they understand how long it takes to design, bring to production, and successfully market a motorcycle (look what happened to Indian--just hitting their stride, had finally built their own engine, and their investors pulled the plug...). I've read a fair bit about Czysz's bike, and I think he's done some VERY innovative design there. Will it ever run and compete? I dunno. But again, another thing Buell did right--he concentrated on the chassis, and outsourced an existing engine (engine development is a whole other ballgame from chassis design). Yes, Buell has tweaked the engine design, and I don't think a Buell XB engine is not just a re-badged Sportster mill--but the BMC is only now delving into more serious engine design (and the XBRR is still based on the ol' Sportster). Anyway, much as I wish these guys well, and envy their chance to design their own motorcycles, I have serious doubts we'll see any American made production sportbikes other than Buell (or maybe something from Polaris) for a long time to come. Because in this day and age, it's getting very difficult to compete with the Big Four from Japan or the established European makers... | ||
| Court |
Kootenay : Yuo nailed it. . . the bit statement about Erik and Harley is not only ture, it's become business gospel. Any idea as to how many people have tried to "partner" with Halrey-Davivdson? How many manufacturers have tried to team up with HD the last couple years? The amazing part is the DOING part. Again, the motorcycle part is fairly easy, we've dicsussed several currently ongoing efforts that I think have little probability of long-term success, and not due to lack of creativity or innovation. The product would be fine IF you could make it and hook in to a distribution system. Erik had the bike, the design a handful of folks and all the peices but capital. Cpaital is tough, just ask Mike Czsyz, he's a wealthy guy trolling the internet for capital. Wanna know why? He'll NEVER have enough and no bank would touch the deal (the Hanlons proved that a mere $60M is chump change) So now your Erik stuck in your barn and 34 miles away sits America's CASH RICHEST Fortune 50 company, fresh off 58 consecutive quarters of record earnings, folks who hired you, know your talent and whom you were smart enough to, even while leaving, maintain good terms with..... Folks are lined up at the Harley trough daily.....few are invited to feed. P.S. - my compliments to the Motocyz folks, they've promptly provided me a warm welcomne to their club and within minutes of ordering I got a FedEx tracking number for my stuff. Hell, I may invest. Wonder if he needs a "tag along butt boy mouth piece"? | ||
| Pwnzor |
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| Elvis |
"I have serious doubts we'll see any American made production sportbikes other than Buell . . ." At least you give Buell credit for being a production sportbike. Honestly that's the thing that bugs me. These other manufacturers generally word their pitches in a way that takes a swipe at Buell: "We're goint to produce the first, true, American sportbike. . . " The fact that Buell just doesn't count is usually implied or, in some cases (like in an interview I saw with Fischer and at least a few phrases from Motoczysz) specifically stated. It's fine that they want to do something different, but when Michael Czysz implies that a motorcycle that can't easily complete two parade laps (because the flag caused too much drag - I'm sure Moto GP will put much less strain on an engine than a flag did) is technically superior to the bike I have in my garage, it, frankly, pisses me off. It's not rational, I know, but I take it personally when they feel they have to build themselves up by cutting down Buell . . . particularly when they haven't achieved anything. (but notice where Michael C. put his exhaust) (Message edited by elvis on July 06, 2006) | ||
| Xlcr |
Well, let's give credit where it is due, Puppy said something anyway that's entirely correct, though others like Koot have also made the point. Buell would not have survived without Harley's investment. It's one I've been saying all along. It takes a fortune to start a motorcycle company these days, and a small firm has very little chance because they would have to charge so much for a really competitive bike. Sure, everyone wants an "American Superbike", but if any of these small start-ups really builds one, they would have to charge at least $35-$50,000 for it to make a profit. At those prices there would be few takers. In the end Harley/Buell, and now possibly Victory/KTM, have the only real chance to build a American superbike because they are the only companies that have the money, the engineering resources, and the existing dealer networks to design and mass produce one and sell it at something like a competitive price. (Message edited by xlcr on July 06, 2006) | ||
| Light_keeper |
Not to see Court eat crow but I would like to see some or all succeed. Competition breeds inovation. But the blunt truth is, until they come to market and establish a lasting track record they will be lumped into the same class as all of the other also rans. Talent not withstanding they have to beable to produce and grow. HD/Buell growing. Polaris / Victory growing. Everything else is mostly a pipe dream with not much lasting value. Tell me i'm wrong thats ok, but I am still looking for the finished lasting product. Not just a few prototypes that only a few have ever seen run and flashy press packets.  | ||
| Glitch |
Oh well, that's that then. Too bad, and I thought one might make it to production. I thought one of them might just have a chance. But I see now there is no future for these bikes. With the exception of Buell and Polaris of course. | ||
| Xlcr |
And speaking of which, didn't Stillicam say that they would be in production with the 'new' new Indian this year? Instead they still seem to be searching for a location for the new factory. I think they are looking for the sort of sweetheart deals from local and state governments that the Hanlons enjoyed. Minnesota and the local governments did everything but build the E-H factory for them, and lost their shirts with everyone else. I suspect Stillicam are finding that state and municipal bodies are no longer quite as eager to pour money, free land, and tax credits into new industries as they once were. Again it's a case of 'once bitten, twice shy', as it is with the venture capitalists. Stillicam is supposed to have deep pockets and a successful track record, but we are still no closer to seeing those new Indians. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Didn't I read/hear something about Polaris going Formula Extreme racing very soon? G2 | ||
| Court |
Hanlons pretty well sealed up a couple sources of quasi-public investment capital with their scams. I'd sure not make a leap of faith to the "never" orbit. I see several viable possibilities. Eventually genius without captial is like a missle without fuel. My fervor over some of the instant stuff, I admit, is largely the result of some really mean stuff that was done/said to Erik Buell by some of these folks, that had nothing to do with motorcycles. | ||
| Grimel |
My fervor over some of the instant stuff, I admit, is largely the result of some really mean stuff that was done/said to Erik Buell by some of these folks, that had nothing to do with motorcycles. Court, just accept people are idiots and have zero concept of what it takes to START a functional business that has a chance of lasting. For that matter has a chance of being around long enough for the general public to THINK they MIGHT be around long enough to not be buying an orphan in the making. | ||
| Light_keeper |
"Too bad, and I thought one might make it to production. I thought one of them might just have a chance." As I said, I hope they do. | ||
| Jscott |
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/06/30/motoczysz-unveiling-racebikes-at-la guna-seca/ After reading the article - scroll down to 39 Responses to “MotoCzysz Unveiling Racebikes at Laguna Seca” - it makes an interesting read. Some Fanbois, some Naysayers, and the man himself chime in. Enjoy (or don't) | ||
| Thepup |
Jscott,I agree,pretty serious wannabe hobbyist.What was Buell's first bike,a race bike.Interesting how these other ppl who are trying to make an American sportbike are "wannabe hobbyist"because they are starting out with a race bike.How long from the time Erik made the RW750 till he made the first buell street bike?These other guys should get a fair shake.Erik's story is very impressive,but please don't say these other guys efforts are crap to make Erik's story look better,I doubt he needs the help. | ||
| Kootenay |
Jscott, that's an interesting article and thread following...thanks for posting. I did note, however, the first poster saying that "...builders in the U.S.A. are completely ignoring the ‘Sport Bike’ market..." I guess my Buell really is simply the "Harley" so many seem to think it is... | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
speaking for the unedumacated masses most of us could care less what it takes to start a motorcycle company or what it takes to team up with harley all we know is going to a harley dealership to buy a motorcycle is wrong,it sucks, and makes us uncomfortable..we care not what trials and tribulations that handa or suzuki went through the proceeding year we know their bikes work and if we go to the dealership theres a damn good chance someone there rides the bike we want and has it parked outside prob somewhere by service and will let us look at it.....and talk to us like someone who they might ride with following ou purchase..they wont be some overfed jackass who dosent know dick about a buell and who finaly came over and talked to us after an hour at the dealership cause we didnt look like we wanted 1000$ in chrome for our new road king..never underestimate the unedumacated masses..we spend money and we dont like harley dealers....period....personaly im glad mr. buell got to make his bike and will continue to do so for a while i love my 9...i hate every harley dealer ive ever dealt with , with the white hot passion of a thousand burning suns....i am not alone... we would like an updated motor with a bit more hp. and to not have white wheels on or bikes anymore...a black frame would be dandy too..thanx we now have to go catch our short little bus home...we will see ya'll again. ttfn . | ||
| Rafartist |
From a straight performance standpoint, I dont see how anyone couldn't see it that way. These bikes are not sportbikes compared to what the Japanese offer. Its like comparing todays Honda CRF450R to yesterdays XR400, the Buell being the XR400. True, they do have the RR but that is a limited production bike that is simply for homologation requirements. I love my Buell for its quirks, its uniqueness, the looks it garners, etc. But pure performance doesn't is something it is really lacking. And getting back to KTM and Polaris, when either or's street bikes make it to market, I will be camping out in front of my local dealership the night before the first crate is delivered. I have run KTM's for years in offroad endurance races and they have never let me down due to inferior materials or workmanship, I would expect the same from a street motorcycle. And I'll bet if something does go wrong, they'll fix it and have it back in less time than it takes a HD dealership to change the oil and reset the TPS. I love my Buell but it is what it is. And putting Erik or anybody else that cashed in when the time was right or just plain got lucky is BS. If it weren't for HD and their dinosaur of a motor, Buell would simply not exist. I have been watching this thread since its opening post and chose to stay out of it until now, I couldnt do it any longer. There are some people here that cant see past the end of their own noses because they are buried so far up someone elses arse. Ready to poke at anyone willing to speak up with the truth that they cant see the big picture: Erik was a "wannabe hobbyist" in the beginning too. A man with a pipe dream that came true. | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
success dosent make a great man or product....being able to see the problems that exist within the buell network and having the balls to put ur foot down would be a great start. its funny none of the other people i ride with have the problems i do with their dealers....they love my stories. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Court sez: It's not rational, I know, but I take it personally when they feel they have to build themselves up by cutting down Buell . . . particularly when they haven't achieved anything. Aha! Now I understand why you and Anony were so fired up. I knew there had to be more to the story. The more I read about this Mr C guy the more sceptical I become. He makes great claims and bold statements, but the proof is in the pudding. It's shocking to me that he's yapping about MotoGP and he doesn't even have a bike that has been publicly seen to run a racetrack at speed to my knowledge. Oh well. Maybe he can pull it off but he'll have to get the pricetag down to 10-15k before I'll be interested. | ||
| Buellshyter |
I wonder where he found the engineers to design and build this dream bike of his. I didn't think the U.S. still possessed that kind of nohow. I mean, HD had to go to Germany to come up with a new motor. | ||
| Jscott |
Some world-class guys on Michael C's team. "In order to build a new bike with a new engine, they’ve been out scouring the world for the best people they could find and they’ve come up with a few: Federico Cioni, recently of Ducati, who managed the design of the Testastretta and Desmosedici RR engines, is the new President of Motoczysz. Other additions include: Simon Jackson and Adrian Hawkins : formerly Senior Engineers at Cosworth , UK Nicolas Reynier: formerly Chassis Engineer at KR MotoGP Team , France Andrea Pretzler: formerly Carbon Fiber Specialist at CarboTech , Austria ; she has done work for BMW and Benelli among others. The original C1 was a groundbreaking motorcycle and everyone was very impressed with the design, however, they’ve promised even more from the second generation, scheduled to hit the track around July of next year. Also very interesting is the partnership they have formed with Ricardo plc, the century old engineering and design firm started by Sir Harry Ricardo, author of The high-speed internal-combustion engine, one of the all time classics in the field. Motoczysz will be using Ricardo’s engine development and simulation software in the creation of their new engine. We’re looking forward to seeing the new Motoczysz next year, it should be a stunner and it’s an American Sportbike, too. Nice." http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/11/03/motoczysz-second-generation-develop ments/ |
