| Author | Message | ||
     Soloyosh |
>>I don't think Erik really cares if the general racing public thinks it is a factory effort or not. He wants a privateer to be able to run a competitive race bike. I don't think they have any dreams or hopes that the RR can beat the factory bikes in FX on a regular basis. I think they will be happy if they can get some podiums and win the occasional FX race.<< Couple things.. 1. why not put a privateer on the bike then and do all the development behind closed doors with your paid rider. 2. The bike was built to the FX rules. Buell was careful to maintain AMA approval throughout. If you're going to go to the trouble to melt down cases and cast new ones, wouldn't you make sure the bike was going to have the backing to make a run for the title? If you take a look at the XBRR and think that you could assemble that for $30K, you may not be quite grounded in reality. Cheers Brett (Message edited by soloyosh on June 15, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Oink! What am I? | ||
| M1combat |
1. They're doing their final touches on development in the public eye. 2. No. You build it, and they will come. It'll happen. Someone needs to get a sponsorship deal worked out and get a bike. You don't seem to understand that the "RR" wasn't placed on the track to be a contender this year. That said... If it had won Daytona (I know... it was exceedingly un-likely) I'm sure a number of sponsors would have come out of the woodworks falling all over themselves asking where to put their money. It didn't happen. That's OK. Apparently the bike needs a little more development. They put the bike on the track and said "Hey... Take a look at what we've got, we're still working a few bugs out but we think we have a good bike here. Here's what we're shooting for. Get your ducks in a row and we'll help you along for a while until everyone is perfectly comfortable with the bike." ?3.? Ummm... Buell sells those bikes for ~$30K. Just so you know. You don't NEED to build it... That's almost the ENTIRE point of the "RR". It's already done and will almost certainly be very competitive. Doesn't matter though... You can make an XB-R almost as quick with about $30K or so... It just doesn't have much head room for more development. Anyway... I could care less what other people say. I've been right before  . Try to build an IL4 FX bike for the cost of an XBRR... The Buell is a VERY attractive package for a privateer. It just has a couple bugs that will be taken care of and then you'll see a major change in American motorcycle road racing  . The best thing I've heard to date about the "RR"... "Don't laugh... It's got some speed" - Jeremy McWilliams. | ||
| Davegess |
-If you take a look at the XBRR and think that you could assemble that for $30K, you may not be quite grounded in reality. - I could not but the factory can. They are certainly not losing money on these, well at least not a ton. -why not put a privateer on the bike then and do all the development behind closed doors with your paid rider. 'cause Buell could only afford a couple of test sessions. They were pretty sure the bike was ready afet some pretty tough testing. The problem at Daytona was a big surprise and at Sears it was just one of those racing things. - wouldn't you make sure the bike was going to have the backing to make a run for the title? I don't think Erik built them to make a run for the title, he built them so privateers could buy a race bike that could actually compete. Not that he would not like to win the championship but it seems pretty hard to beat those factory FX bikes given the budgets they have. (Message edited by davegess on June 15, 2006) | ||
| Soloyosh |
>>Try to build an IL4 FX bike for the cost of an XBRR...<< It's all about what it takes to be competitive. I agree Buell should sell XBRRs to privateers. I also think they should have a factory team working on that development ceiling and make the unobtainium parts available to the privateers. Keep in mind that Japan Inc. is on a very short development cycle for their bikes being replaced by newer, and for the most part better models. Just look at how far Yamaha has come in FX with the new R6. I think the XBRR is a one shot deal, so it's all the more important to hit the ground running while your competitors are on their heels trying to figure out what to make of you. Otherwise it becomes a VR1000, long in the tooth and many generations behind. Cheers Brett | ||
| Soloyosh |
>>he built them so privateers could buy a race bike that could actually compete.<< With who? | ||
| M1combat |
The Lions share of the FX field if not the whole thing and the WHOLE of every class in which it's legal in club racing... "Keep in mind that Japan Inc. is on a very short development cycle for their bikes being replaced by newer, and for the most part better models. Just look at how far Yamaha has come in FX with the new R6. " You don't think there's head room in the RR? LOL. Do you know how much HP an XR-750 engine makes? (Message edited by M1Combat on June 15, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
Soloyosh says: "Its not me, I swear... Can you even vote for yourself? I did give you post a five just cause its a cool place youve got here to have neat discussions like this. Cheers Brett" Soloyosh is not voting for himself...he doesn't have too. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
M1combat sez: "In any case... I see your point, but it's moot IMO. Buell will do what Buell wants to do (and IMO they are doing the right things) and it'll all come out in the wash." I am leaning towards Soloyosh on this one...and I think the correct statement would be: In any case...Buell will do what HD MoCo wants Buell to do...cause they have the sponsor money. And the money is gone. I think that the sight of McWilliams one-legging it down the track side caused the brass at HD to lose its (racing) erection...somebody give Willie G a Viagra enema quickly! The season is passing by right before our eyes! BTW, privateers will never be competitive in AMA FX as long as there are factory teams in there. If that is all Buell was going to do with this RR bike, they might as well have stayed in CCS/ASRA. Think about it and then we will talk. McWilliams is the man. jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on June 15, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
M1Combat sez: "Buell seems to be a company that's in it for the racing. They need to make a pile of money first so they can develop a bike that's competitive, but they seem to want to allow people to go racing competitively and have less to worry about. It'll work as long as they stick with it. I don't think that Erik is really the type to give up... so I think it'll work." I think Buell IS in it for the racing, but I think that its AMA FX racing effort with the RR goes deeper than that...like advertising! Ever heard of it? Apparently the MoCo hasn't, at least for Buell anyway. If they are going try to compete in AMA FX, which is shown nationwide (internationally?) on SPEED for crissakes, they had better get their act together because it is a very visible media. There is something to what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday. The converse is also true, what DNFs on Sunday after Sunday does not sell anytime. There is great marketing potential in FX racing and that is why the factory boys are in it. This seems so obvious to me...but it seems to be lost on HD. Unless they want Buell to fail... jimidan | ||
| Anonymous |
With other privateers, Brett. Isn't that what you used to do in AMA dirt track before you got old and started touring? Or did you really think you were competing with Springer and the like?  | ||
| Jimidan |
Davegess sez: "I don't think Buell want's a full factory effort (frankly there is no way in h e l l they can afford to do it; don't tell me HD can, they are not HD)." I keep hearing that Buell isn't HD, but mainly from guys who ride Harleys, or sell them. HD owns 98+% of Buell, how much more do they have to own before they are one in the same? I will tell you that regardless of the fine print that says Buell is an entity unto itself, if such even exists, it is entirely lost on the facing fans. They believe, and in the grand scheme of marketing, that is all that matters. Consider this: God is the Holy Spirit and Jesus is God's son and they are both part-and-parcel of the Holy Spirit. Is Jesus not Lord? Of course, he is. Is Buell not HD? Of course, it is...in spite of what a lot of HD dealers say! Dave cont.: "They really want to build a bike a privateer can buy and race. ALL the bikes raced so far have been private bikes. Warr's pays Jeremey's fee. Buell was able to arrange some very limited sponsorship money to help defray some of the coat to the dealers. They did provide a ton of people (people who for the most part came and worked for free) at Daytona but not a lot at the other races." If all they wanted to do is build a bike that privateers can race, they could have saved themselves a lot of money and some face (how much negative advertising was that shot of McWilliams one-leggin it worth?), by keeping it in CCS/ASRA. By stepping out on the AMA stage, they went bigtime, whether they like it or not. I can tell you that it sure looked like they were a factory team at Daytona. What was that duck thing Soloyosh said again... ...and all of the RR bikes raced so far have not been privateer bikes...like at Summit Point. Dave cont.: "I don't think Erik really cares if the general racing public thinks it is a factory effort or not. He wants a privateer to be able to run a competitive race bike. I don't think they have any dreams or hopes that the RR can beat the factory bikes in FX on a regular basis. I think they will be happy if they can get some podiums and win the occasional FX race." That could be true, but it doesn't make much sense to be on the FX national stage then. There was a heck of a lot of promotion done before and after Daytona for him not to "care". As long as privateers are racing the RR in FX against factory teams, they will not be on the podium or, er ah, win the occasional race. The competition is just that good. I guess they can dream...so can we. I want to see a full factory effort with McWilliams in the seat. jimidan | ||
| Brineusaf |
I wish I had SPEED, can't seem to find any motorcycle racing on any of the Euro channels I get via satellite. | ||
| Jimidan |
I wish you could get SPEED too...it is up there on one of those satellites if you could just figure out which one and point a dish at it. Or you could just buy some cold pills and make your own...  (slight joke) jimidan | ||
| Soloyosh |
Anon says>>With other privateers, Brett.<< The best of the "also rans" then, with an ex MotoGP pilot in the seat? Anon again>>Isn't that what you used to do in AMA dirt track before you got old and started touring? Or did you really think you were competing with Springer and the like?<< Not sure what you're talking about here. I did Supercamp once... enough to know I suck. >>Do you know how much HP an XR-750 engine makes?<< Yes... exactly how much. | ||
| Anonymous |
Buell is not the Harley-Davidson Motor Company; it is a subisdiary of HDI, just as is the Motor Company. It makes a difference. Buell has its own profit-and-loss responsibility, which the management takes very seriously. To understand Buell racing, you have to think of Ducati at the start of the 8-valve era. You do what you can, you look for sponsors, and you build. And there will be very interesting FX races this season. | ||
| Jimidan |
Like I said, folks could care less about subsidiaries, and all of that corporate mumbo-jumbo, which they see as having more to do with taxes than anything else. They see Harley and Buell as one in the same when it comes to racing. I know that Buell is a subsidiary, but all that means is that HD owns more than half of its stock. HD was the major sponsor for the Warr's Buell McWilliams bike at Daytona, a fact that was not lost on the media. And now the funds are gone. Part of the profit-and-loss responsibilities would include increasing sales...what wins on Sunday... I think what we are saying is that the buying public's perception of the XBRR's racing effort, with the DNF's and erratic and uncertain future with McWilliams, gives them reason for pause when it comes time for buying a new Buell. This is the squid market that Buell is after with these new bikes, and one cannot underestimate how important a successful racing program is to them. They don't want to read about their brand of bike being involved in fits and starts in their Cycle World. In my opinion, there already has been some very interesting FX races this year. jimidan | ||
| M1combat |
The squid market? They can't afford them. Even when they CHASE ME down the spars they say "It doesn't have enough HP for me." I'm not entirely sure that's Buell's main target... You remember when the Saturn company was launched yes? It gave GM a HUGE shot in the arm. Why? They were reliable and a little sporty. Changed the industry if you ask me. Am I the only one who sees this season as an initial attempt at a racing effort that, when it didn't work quite as well as it was hoped it would they turned it into a development season? I really don't see why that's a bad thing... The diesels did quite badly in endurance racing last year (Clutch failures ). They're doing good this year... I still think that you're missing an important factor Jim... Buell needs to be able to stand on it's own feet. It needs that because if they can't then they'll be a financial drain on HD, and the stock holders won't have it (they aren't race fans, especially when it costs them money...). Buell needs to be able to stand on it's own feet AND race. From what I hear... Flickenger (sorry if I spelled that wrong) is a race fan and knows the top brass of HD quite well. If he sees the vision then we're golden. I shook Willie Davidson's hand at Daytona (He was just walking by and saw that I was wearing a "Buell Racing" shirt). He was wearing a shirt that looked just like mine... I didn't just walk up to him and say "please let me shake your hand sir" by any means. I figured he'd just walk on by but he noticed me about 30' out just behind pit row and walked towards me and stuck his hand out. I don't think he wants Buell to fail. Does he want to keep the companies separate? Probably... I mean... it IS his name in the bar and shield. Not Erik's. I think they'll not co-mingle too much. HD will do flat-track and drag... Buell will do roadracing. I don't think Buell will die w/o HD's support in their race effort. I'm sure that HD's support for the engineering and production effort has been very helpful and appreciated (along with that whole 98% purchase thing). I think that HD will mostly stay out of Buells business when it comes to racing though. I doubt that HD can tell Buell to "stop racing". I have a feeling if that happened, we'd see Erik move on... I doubt Harley will say that though. I have a classic timing cover sitting on my desk at work. It's a little scratched and the mounting holes are a little over sized from being taken off of an old sportster to adjust the points too many times. It's all polished and has the classic "1" in stars and stripes on it. I believe it was a big thing when Willie G. was younger... In my opinion you are too quick to judge Jim. Racing takes time . I don't personally believe that HD's top brass has ever really had a passion for road racing as such. I know they've made a few attempts, but they've always been a little limp... Buell is a company that is absolutely brimming with it. I've watched racing for a lot of years. Just about all forms of it (I raced belt sanders a few times... Don't ask...). I can see that passion in the actions, words and eyes of the people at Buell who matter. I see that in HD too, but they just don't care too much for the discipline of road racing. They do understand racing though. Only time will tell obviously... They could announce that all the XBRR's will be shipped to museums tomorrow. I doubt we'll see that. I think we'll see a whole slew of RR's produced next year. I think we'll see the price drop just a bit. I think we'll see Buell offering larger contingencies. I think the Ulysses will continue to fun a lot of it . I still keep forgetting to head on over to the Big, Bad and Dirty section to thank all of the guys that bought Ulysses' for helping to make it possible for Buell to go race. We'll see more. Buell is not going away any time soon me thinks. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Ironically, the most SUCCESSFUL PRO RACING level 'Buell' Racer this year has more wins so far than HD's FACTORY RACER, beating both the HD and Suzuki teams this past weekend. Since Buell offers little to no support to these these bikes/teams, they are truly 'privateers' when compared to the RR AMA FX program. Somehow, this has not prevented at least six of these 'Buell' teams to show up and compete in the NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle class compared to the two FACTORY HD 'VRODS'. Somehow, they found sponsors to fund their efforts for a season. Hard to say how the costs compare to a full AMA road racing effort, but my guess is they are in the same ballpark. Adding salt to the wound, BUELL can claim little to NO credit (The stickers on the airbox don't hurt) for this or send out company press releases for any of these "Buell" wins or feature them on the RACING section of their own website. Yet, more people ATTENDED this race and/or saw it on TV on ESPN than they ever would at any AMA event, with the possible exeption of Daytona and Laguna.   carry on..... (Message edited by José_quiñones on June 16, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
Do you think Muzzy would be interested in Road Racing again? | ||
| Trojan |
How much of that bike (other than the replica fairing) is actually Buell or even related to a Buell though? Reminds me of the '70's Funny cars that just had a replica bodyshell but ran whtever they liked underbeath. | ||
| Jscott |
I heard that they started out by melting down the stock Buell engine cases, frame and bodywork. Those wheels definitely look aftermarket though!! Upon further review - Isn't that the gigantic tail section off the XBRR?  (Message edited by JScott on June 16, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
Jose', True, and very funny I might add. But is that THING supposed to be a Buell? How do you know? Is the key that little oval blue sticker on the airbox that I can't read. Does that really say Buell, or Ford? That machine is the antithesis of a Buell, regardless of what's on the sticker. I have a Suzuki rain jacket that I glued a Buell patch onto that is more of a Buell than that thing. I know Buell. Buell was a friend of mine. And that thing, sir, is no Buell. (Sorry Mr. Bensen, I couldn't resist.) Trim Tex Drywall Products huh...is that they kind of sponsor that the McWilliams XBRR will get? Obviously, I think these boys are playing to the drag racing crowd which is made up of an entirely different demographic than motorcycle road racing. If Buell gives them a dime for that little sticker it is too much...if they gave them the little sticker, it is about right for the amount of promotional value it will be for Buell motorcycle sales. I think Buell is going to have to do something in FX before any sponsor is going to want to stick their name on it. I hope they do. jimidan | ||
| Anonymous |
Thanks for the post, Jose. I was wondering when/if anyone would post it, as personally I was glued to the TV set for this race. There were three Buells in the semis, and both bikes in the final were Buells. Note that the bike that was runner-up was from Guidera's, a Buell dealership in California. There isn't one H-D part on the H-D bikes, nor is there a single Suzuki part on the Suzukis. So the bike is as much a Buell as anybody else's bike is that carries a brand name. The cool part of the Buells though is that the engines come from Wisconsin, and the bodywork also from Wisconsin. And that they are available to privateers. Jimidan, I disagree that it is nothing like a Buell, in fact the connection is much closer than you think. Very close in the privateer racing philosophy, and closer than you think in other ways! And like all Buell racing it is done on the cheap compared to the Suzukis and H-D's. BTW, they have been running these bikes for a number of years, and are just this year really getting competitive. Watch the XBRR over the next couple of years; it's going to do the same thing. And I'll bet Buell would gladly take a check from TrimTex drywall to get Jeremy out more. | ||
| Davegess |
I think some of you don't understand racing. Things are done with too little money and too little time every day by everyone. Comapnies spend enormous amounts of money and show up at the track and lose. Look at Yamaha at the MotoGP's Until Italy they sucked. Would it have made sense for them to stay home until the bike was right? Would they have made ANY progress testing or did getting their butt kicked push them harder? Shouldn't Suzuki and Kawasaki be staying home? They can't possibley win, all they are doing is creating bad PR for themselves. The answer to all these is of course NO, your are racing, you go racing, you think you have it right and you find out at the track. You can test and test and test but until your rider is getting pushed hard by guys who want to beat him you don't really know. Very occasionally will a company have not only the resources but also the technology to build something so fast that they can test to the point that it is almost impossible that they will lose when they show up. The only really good example of that is when Mercedes returned to GP racing in the 50's. They KNEW they woudl win and they did. This is very, very unusual. | ||
| Soloyosh |
The problem with the drag racing thing is that you can be the most successful "manufacturer" in Pro-Stock Bike, but it means virtually nothing in the showrooms. Has the Pro-Stock "VRod" got people buying VRSCs? Nope. Does Angelle "insert last name here"'s Suzuki drive drag racing fans to the Suzuki store? Nope. Cheers Brett | ||
| Jscott |
"Comapnies spend enormous amounts of money and show up at the track and lose." Key words - show up. "Shouldn't Suzuki and Kawasaki be staying home? They can't possibley win, all they are doing is creating bad PR for themselves." Key words - staying home. You can't develop if you aren't racing. Will the XBRR be at Miller this weekend? Anonymous? | ||
| Jimidan |
M1 combat sez: "The squid market? They can't afford them. Even when they CHASE ME down the spars they say "It doesn't have enough HP for me." I'm not entirely sure that's Buell's main target..." Jimidan: If that is not the target, what is? I am not sure anybody knows. I have heard over and over on these sites that when Buell made the XB series, that it "abandoned" its market, which was at the time baby boomers. I am a BB and Buell isn't making a bike that I am ready to trade in my 2 tubers for just yet. The Uly was close, but no cigar. The media can't figure out who the intended market was either. Just going by anecdotal evidence and with the number of young guys that are now on the XBs, and looking at the ads, I would say that it is more directed to squids than anything else. It has been written that if you are going to produce a niche bike, then you need to know what the niche is before you produce it. I think we all knew what the niche was with the S1/S2/S3. M1 cont.: "Am I the only one who sees this season as an initial attempt at a racing effort that, when it didn't work quite as well as it was hoped it would they turned it into a development season? I really don't see why that's a bad thing..." Jimi: No, I see it and agree that it isn't a bad thing...in fact I think it is a good thing to a point. Where the disagreement come in is the WAY it has been done, which I think Soloyosh has stated the case very eloquently. It started out great, with the full support of Willie G and the MoCo...but has soured after just a few races. The money is all gone. Repeat, the money is all gone. This and the DNFs and DNSs (did not shows) has unnecessarily created the perception that it wasn't really thought out well before they launched it. I think if McWilliams and Crevier (at least) had been at Road America, and then there for the rest of the season, it would have been so beneficial to the negative press of the effort so far. M1 cont.: "I still think that you're missing an important factor Jim... Buell needs to be able to stand on it's own feet. It needs that because if they can't then they'll be a financial drain on HD, and the stock holders won't have it (they aren't race fans, especially when it costs them money...). Buell needs to be able to stand on it's own feet AND race." Jimidan: Why is that so important? The fans (and potential customers) could care less about the finicky stockholders. And besides, the stockholders will embrace the increased sales which will come from a successful and visible racing effort. As much as I like to go to CCS/ASRA racing, it is virtually an invisible stage. All the contingency money paid out to the privateers is a good thing for the racers and owners, but let's be honest, it isn't buying any more market share for Buell. (Sorry Mutant Racer, but it is the truth). Shucks, I am usually the only one at the CCS races who is just a fan and has no direct family or business ties to the racers or teams. AMA FX, on the other hand is highly visible and on SPEED for every race. Having Buell contend for the podium at these races is worth 100 times (maybe 1000X) any full-page, color ad in a bike mag. Buell could take all of that contingency money (and I would personally be sorry to see that happen, as I like the venue) that they spend on CCS/ASRA, and spend it on one FX team w/ McWilliams and get a lot more promotional bang for the buck. Doesn't that make sense? M1 sez: "I shook Willie Davidson's hand at Daytona (He was just walking by and saw that I was wearing a "Buell Racing" shirt)." Jimidan: I am glad you got to shake his hand, but Willie G seems to be a fair weather fan, and when the Badweather set in, and the Lightning and Thunderbolts started, then he bailed. The money is gone. Hey, I shook his hand once too, on the last day that the VR1000 ran at VIR. He even signed my Pascal Picotte poster, which I have hanging on my wall. It looks like he has lost his temp boner for Buell racing...and therein lies the problem. Buell needs HD support right now so as to get this thing off of the ground, and the money is gone. The money is GONE. Without corporate money, success cannot be guaranteed and sponsors will not follow. M1 sez: "In my opinion you are too quick to judge Jim. Racing takes time." Jimidan: To judge what? The only complaint I have is that the money is gone already. I am not disappointed in the racing effort so far, as I understand that success takes time and concur with the efforts and direction of the team. They can't say it, but I am certain that they are deeply disappointed with HD MoCo that the money is GONE. I agree 100% that the XBRR should be racing at the FX level, with McWilliams and Crevier on board. What am I too quick to judge on? My beef is with HD MoCo, not Buell, not Anony (all of them)...but HD for making Buell look bad (again!). The comparisons to the VR1000 race program being made on the web sites and in the press is NOT helping Buell sell more motorcycles...and it is all just so unnecessary. Incompetent really. With corporate sponsors like them, who needs enemies? Jimidan | ||
| Anonymous |
Soloyosh, In this type of racing it's not about selling the product on Monday. It's about getting brand name awareness. Drag racing sells lots and lots of product. The people who put their names on these cars and bikes are not stupid. | ||
| M1combat |
"Buell could take all of that contingency money (and I would personally be sorry to see that happen, as I like the venue) that they spend on CCS/ASRA, and spend it on one FX team w/ McWilliams and get a lot more promotional bang for the buck. Doesn't that make sense? " No... It doesn't. It would have that effect for sure, but then the privateers are screwed. I still say that someone needs to sign up a good sponsor for a Buell team... |
