| Author | Message | ||
     Bindy |
Well from a girly ex racer point of view, I have a drummer and 1% with original stock headers does me! Was I to race again.... I think I would ring Kevin and ask him whether he could improve on the 1% standard margin...... Hey Kev after all that, is that all you have got???? DO NOT THINK SO!!!! Glad I am happy to beat a DRUM, better than beating a DEAD HORSE!!!! | ||
| Kds1 |
Bindy, I'm never done, just have less money and materials to work with opposed to the big corporate companies....this racing deal is paying off quickly, being noticed by alot of people...right now I'm keyed on giving back to the Buell owners and the catchcan deal and a few other things are in line this year....keep riding!!!!! Kevin www.kdfab.com | ||
| Kurosawa |
Well if you ever get around to tiny niches, I'd love to have a standard Drummer with the same performance characteristics but quiet (Iron Butt legal). | ||
| Metalstorm |
+1 on the quiet Drummer. Me want me want me want me want! I went with the race pipe because it is the quietest but I do so love the torque curve of the original Drummer. | ||
| M1combat |
I understand that the engine is a ways down the list for sure... I've been watching racing my whole life. I'm kind of a fan... The way I look at it though is that I should be getting everything else in line while I wait to go to a CSS class or two and run some trackdays. Then it's on to February and the first race of the CCSSW season. I can't wait. I already have a one piece leather, gloves, helmet... I need a pair of Sidi Vertibra 2 Air's though... Tire warmers but maybe not until next year. That still needs some thought. I'm pretty sure I can afford them, but I may think of something else to spend the money on... Like save it for spares or an extra set of tires and a rear wheel. I'll need a new set of tools for sure  , The truck could use a T-Nut kit and fuel pressure regulator so there's that... 66 cases of Gatorade at the least... I'll be racing in Phoenix... Yeah, the suit is perforated... Anyway, I've got a plan. I need to reduce mass (me and the bike), a CF drummer would be right for a pipe unless the Force "muffler" on the stock header works wonders... | ||
| Bindy |
Hey M1 good luck with your racing. Getting around the track in one piece should be your main objective. With racing smooth is fast, so get to know the tracks and sort your lines out first. Try and have a friend at the corners so they can let you know when you are breaking too early or not powering out early enough. One of my tricks was to go ...and one before I'd break. It worked for me, self preservation is a funny thing and it seemed to trick my brain. Playing with your bike comes when you can complete a race with no dramas and know it's not your skill and ability, but lack of power against your competitors thats the problem. Make sure you have a spare helment, gloves and boots for those times when you might go down the road. Nothing worse than not been able to ride because you do not have back up gear. Again Good Luck, Take Care Be Safe and Stay Upright! Bindy | ||
| Norrisperformance |
Did you know??? With a tunable ecm, you can progressively retard spark tables, timing. By optimizing spark tables in this fashion you can increase HP as the RPMs increase. I called some friends who are Harley turners, and ask what kind of increase would you commonly see by doing this. Wouldn’t you know it, 5 to 8 hp gains can be accomplished at higher RPMs, by progressively retarding timing. Could this be the reason Kevin was not giving the opportunity to try the micron map, even after he ask very nicely. LOL | ||
| Al_lighton |
Mike, I don't know what you're insinuating there, but all the pipes were run on race ignition spark map . The micron on the XB9 initially was run on the 03 race ECM spark map, and the others had a combination of the 05 and 03 race ECM spark map (an inadvertent error on my part, I had pasted the 03 front cylinder and 05 rear cylinder race ECM spark map). When we found that error, we pushed that same spark map into the ECM and re-ran the micron on it. The net effect on the results wasn't significant. The test report mentions this. And I don't know what you are talking about on the last statement. If anyone out there thinks that there was some type of conspiracy to influence the measured results, well, you just don't know me or Terry very well. | ||
| Brucelee |
Al is the man. Totally trustworthy. My two cents. | ||
| Glitch |
Questions and answers are a fine thing indeed. But... Before posting anything, question or answer, please do one thing... Read what you've written, to make sure what you've said/asked is getting your point across the way you intended. If you have any question about how you're coming off, say so in your post. Thanks all, Dave | ||
| Norrisperformance |
Lol I was not making accusations. Just logical food for thought. Not trying to start a pissing contest, just open dialog!!!! I have met no bad eggs that own Buells or like Buells. My point of view is like this. If I had spent many hours tuning a specific exhaust and looking for ever available means to show more power with that exhaust, I would have optimized the spark maps. Why wouldn’t I ? The point would be to show the best performance possible. And why wouldn’t I use that map for that exhaust at the shootout?? Please remember I’m not trying to piss anybody off. This stuff and these points are on a lot of peoples minds that I have been talking to. So it was going to come out soon or later As far as being non biased You already stated on your site, you thought the Micron was the best exhaust available for the XB. And being as knowledgeable and intelligent as Terry seems to be, I’m sure he was trying to get every last drop of performance out of the Micron before the shootout. I know I would have been!! It’s a competitive nature thing. As far as the following statement. (((Could this be the reason Kevin was not giving the opportunity to try the micron map, even after he asked very nicely.))) Just repeating what I told. If I have ruffled anybody’s feathers, I apologize!!!!!!!!! I’m just looking at it from all angles. The Drummer performed excellent anyway! I think the direct link is a great tool!!! Al thanks for all the hard work and LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Bubabuell |
"I am not trying to piss anyone off. Maybe so. But you're incredibly annoying at times. Drummer loyalty aside. I applaud your commitment to Buell (and to be fair I'm running a stock exhaust) but from the get go the Drummer fans like yourself remind me of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers... (Loud scream, pointing finger) "He's not one of us!" And to tell you the truth your constant accolades are at times too much. Reminiscnet of Amway salesmen. IMO of course. | ||
| Glitch |
You know what? When this thread started, a custodian said this thread would end up being a pissing contest and end in name calling. I didn't think it would, but it has. I'm wrong again it would seem. To keep this thread open, keep it civil, if not I'll lock it, and what could be a great discussion will die a wimpering death in the archives... Whiskey Tango, I suggest you give Al a call, rather than calling him out on a public message board. Thanks, Dave | ||
| Whiskeytango |
You are right, I apologize. WT | ||
| Glitch |
Whiskey Tango, I removed your posts from public eye for...well you know why. If you'd like to have your say, go ahead, but remember, try to be civil. Nice knives by the way. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Warren, Three things: 1) I don't remember saying that I'd give it to Kevin before publishing it, but I do remember saying that he would get all the data. ALL the pipe manufacturers will. But it is a lot more than what is in the test report Zip file, and I'm prepping CD's to mail with ALL that data on it. It is spread across three computers, so I have to compile it all into one directory to burn it. 2) There was discussion here on how to publish it here on BWB prior to publishing it. Several folks volunteered to host it if I didn't have server bandwidth to do so, but that turned out to be a non-problem. I believe Blake is formatting it for publication here now, which I encouraged. And Kevin and anyone else is free to publish it on their website as well. It is public domain stuff as far as I'm concerned. I put it on the American Sport Bike website because I could, but others can do as they see fit. My only request is that it is published in its entirety so that all of the acknowledgments for all that sponsored and participated doesn't get lost. I think the report properly acknowledges those that participated and sponsored it. If it was lacking there, please tell me where. 3) I got your powerpoint presentation. I thought you were going to create it as a picture presentation here a la Ferris's picture stories. Feel free, I didn't realize you were waiting for me to do it. Have at it. Al | ||
| Jscott |
If I was Al, I would think twice before trying to do something positive and informative for the Buell community again. Sheesh! | ||
| Skyguy |
Al and many others went to a lot of hassle to do the shootout. It pains me to see people say he is "biased". If he was truly biased why would he bother with the shotout at all? Why not just sell what he wants? Give it a break people. pick the pipe that suits your style and tastes and call it a day. I find it sad that there is so much derision over a horse or two. BTW I ride a stock pipe for noise reasons only. If Kevin made a real quiet good looking pipe I would buy it for the sole reason of supporting the little guy..................... I admire his drive for a great product. | ||
| Sokota |
What does LOL mean ? How do you veiw the shootout results on the American Sport Bike site ? I have a dsl link , downloaded it and see nothing?! my computer needs a twist grip......how do you veiw the results , help. | ||
| Hattori_hanzo |
If I was Al, I would think twice before trying to do something positive and informative for the Buell community again. Sheesh! I second that! Geez...Al goes through hell and back to compile all the data from an incredible weekend of work. Then the results are nit picked over and over again when the reality is that maybe 1% of the people here would be able to discern a difference in the real world. | ||
| Firebolteric_ma |
lol = laughing out loud | ||
| Bindy |
Could not agree more, Hey Buba love your analogy. Guess it's like anything in life if you are happy with something you tend to rave on about it. Meant no offense to anyone, but I do love my Drummers and that was my point in reality what is 1%. Al, as a Drummer owner I am really sorry mate for some of the comments made. Please know all your hard work was and is appreciated. Bindy | ||
| Blake |
Kevin and Al admirably stay far above the miserableness. Thank you to both of them. A better testament to their character would be difficult to find. | ||
| Blake |
So... how about the rest of us follow suit? | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Blake, sometimes I just don't know what to say. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Al told me to check all this out, because after seeing some of the whining, I had decided not to respond at all. ... I had no agenda and sure as hell did not have time " to get every last drop of performance out of the Micron before the shootout."I am trying to get a new company started and run a race team, so who in the hell are any of you to question any of us who who went to the trouble and expense do put this on. "You are the Losers" not the pipes you run. The winners were the great folks at the dealership who let a bunch of outsiders take over their shop and dyno for almost three days and those who traveled at their own expense to make it happen. I have not been asked but here is what I saw, what I learned and what I feel. ... The Engineers at Buell got it pretty close with their Race Kit. The Big $ guys have the engineering, tools and backing to make it hard for the small guys to compete, but they do and do it well. I would also have bet Kevin's SS would not pull from 1500 RPM, But It Did. ... I have not looked at what was published or any results I know what I saw as I did a few hundred runs. Yes I run, sell and race the Micron, but I am a Tuner and am proud to say I have or will be developing MAPs for the Buell Race, D&D, Jardine, Special Opps and all three Drummers. Those MAPs will all be at the best A/F Curve I can get and the HP TQ # will fall where will. I Tune for rideability, always have and always will. I will watch both room, head temp along with the SAE correction factor. ... If you have been around me in the "Box" you will soon know that I am not a Thunder Header Fan on the H-D Twin Cams, but I tune them and I tune them well. The Buell's we tuned used the "Race ECM" timing tables and Yes I have played a little with the those tables, but not looking for power. I am working on the timing off set for the rear cylinder, trying to get it to run a little cooler and with less pinning in "Closed Loop". If I get something that works without a loss in HP or Torque it will be forwarded to Al as part of our package for all configurations, not just the Micron. In closing, there was one guy I had the pleasure to meet down there that has become a friend and I bet as time goes on a good one. So Kevin I will be starting the Drummer 9 this week as a Special Opps Customer has agreed to let me put it on his bike when his is finished. ... Any of you whiners out there volunteering to give up your bike for a week or three for a few hundred dyno pulls, I didn't think so. ... Again to the winners Thanks for letting me be involved in this, as it was a special event. ... Terry (Message edited by buelldyno_guy on June 13, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
I offered my bike in the beginning... Just a data point is all  . Anyway... Thank you Terry for all the work you did. I didn't exactly mean to ruffle any feathers (seems I certainly did though ). It's OK, I guess that's just the type of guy I am. I'm OK with it... Again... Thanks for your efforts. | ||
| Steve_larson |
Can I please add something that is not meant to stir anything up, but to keep the conversation "level" as everyone refers to the test. It seems that the name "Micron" and some sort of "Orwellian" connection keeps getting made on these posts. Not from you Terry, but a general reference to "big guy (Micron) vs. little guy (pick another company name)", and how "evil" we are. Jardine is no small company. In fact, they have a wider range of products then we do, in more area's then we do, and huge OEM supply to very big named companies. They are from what we can tell a multi-million dollar, multi national company, probably bigger then us. Buell is owned by Harley Davidson, and our guess is that HD throws away more money then we earn. They have resources we have never even dreamed of yet, and more assets to toss around then everyone in the exhaust business combined. Just because they did not build the top performing product, does that make them any less "big $$" then us? How well some "smaller" companies did is a testament to the American ideals of free trade and entrepreneurship. But this was a performance test, not a popularity contest. So can we keep the "Micron is the evil son of satan" part of the conversation to a minimum?  We offered a product to the market, and tried to explain why we did, what we did. It has nothing to do with "crushing" anyone, or making anyone angry at us. In fact, it seems to be our design which is causing quick change in the Buell aftermarket exhaust business, which is good for everyone. Did not see much of that happening in the time before we arrived...? But this is a good thing! So com'on people, stop making us out as the bad guys. We build exhaust systems, and try to build them as best we can to offer performance advantages for you, and profit for us. If anyone else wants to do the same, then welcome to the party. But "big or small" should have nothing to do with the conversation as it relates to performance and design. It is about what you get for your money, and how you want to spend it, on WHATEVER product you choose. Steve Larson Micron Exhaust BTW - Doug does like to wear black underwear (does that make him evil?), but that is probably more then you all ever wanted to know... | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Steve I agree and did not mean to infer that big was bad and little was good or better. I think all the pipes performed well as designed. It was just the idea that some of us had some vested interest and bias in how it was done got me upset. I learned a lot and was pleasantly surprised at the the outcome. I also wanted to say thanks for the opportunity to meet new friends and be part of this as I think it was a first. ... Terry | ||
| Brucelee |
Dudes, It is a freaking muffler. Get over it! No one cares! I have a Buell race pipe. How nice for me. Many thanks to Al et. al for all the work. Let's move on. |
