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Tattoodnscrewd
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 06:44 pm: | 
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After some spirited riding today, I noticed quite an excessive amount of chatter when the bike was in neutral. In gear, clutch lever pulled, it does not chatter like this.
A few weeks ago, I changed the primary gasket and also adjusted the clutch .. per spec in the service manual .. however - the clutch was totally useless per manual specs (turn in until lightly bottoms then back off a 1/4 turn) ... I actually had to back it out about 5 or 6 full turns to make it work, I get no slipping while riding, but the seemingly out-of-whack clutch adjustment, and now the excessive chatter while in neutral (coming from primary) have me thinking my clutch is on it's way out.
Looking for opinions on this, I am supposed to go on a trek from Milwaukee to WI Dells this weekend, and am planning on riding there. Now I'm not sure it's a good idea to do on this clutch. (about 1 hour 45 minutes away taking the freeway one way, not sure on the mileage)
Any info would be appreciated.
Brian |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 07:42 pm: |
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You may be hearing a failed or failing bearing on the clutch adjusting screw. By overadjusting the screw the way you did it was under load all the time the engine is running and that is not normal. I am not certain that is what happened but it is a possibility.
You have to make the clutch cable slack or loose (lever floppy at the bar) before you do thee screw adjustment, then adjust the cable length to take the slack out of the cable.
Check out this recent thread on the XB board, there are explanations there of how to adjust the clutch and how it works:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/211525.html?1152738130
Jack |
Tattoodnscrewd
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:25 pm: |
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When I did the adjustment, I did loosen the clutch cable first, probably should have clarified that I followed all the steps in the manual, then pulled it from the perch, then did the adjustment with the screw. Then went back and adjusted the cable and there is play at the perch as there should be. When I did this I could not even pull the release mechanism with the lever, was very hard, by backing out the screw a few turns (went back and forth with adjusting the cable, back to the clutch a few times) it ended up working, no slipping, no lunging when starting in gear with lever pulled. Just the chatter now .. I just looked in the manual after my original post and it says "Friction or steel plates worn, warped or dragging" - The dragging part would send me back to adjustment or worn plates .. so I'm leaning toward worn friction or steel plates (which means new clutch to me) ..
Oh - I also just went out and checked something and with the bike in neutral, lever at rest, it chatters some (less than earlier while riding) .. pull the lever and chatter disappears ...
The bike had 1758 miles on it when I picked it up in February, every now and then I noticed the chatter, but now, 5 months later, you really start to notice things .. I have put 2000 miles on it since I got it. I know I didn't beat up the clutch like that. Could the previous owner have worn it out that bad in under 2000 miles ? |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 09:53 am: |
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What you are describing, about it being hard to pull after making the adjustments per the manual, could be caused by turning the screw way too far CW before backing it off the 1/8th turn CCW. Or maybe is a frayed/jamming cable, or maybe a spring plate failure in the clutch plate pack.
When you put that adjusting nut over the screw and start turning it CW, the screw should turn very easily if the bearing it mounts in is good, like just with your fingertips on the screwdriver. And the adjusting nut should be pulled down into the recess. The "light contact" is the moment you feel the nut hit the bottom of the recess, that is when you turn it CCW 1/8th turn. And the locking nut and spring keep the adjustment when the cover is put back on.
If you had not slacked the cable/made the lever floppy enough when you make that first adjustment, the resulting pull forward on the actuator arm will have started the balls up the ramps, starting to lift the actuator body, pulling on the screw, and made the first adjustment invalid or not right. As you look at the actuator, the arm where the cable attaches wants to be as far to the right as it can go and without being restrained by the clutch cable when you make that adjustment on the screw. After the screw adjustment, if you push the arm to the left with your finger, you should feel some restriction almost immediately (as soon as the balls start up the ramps and that 1/8th turn of slack is used up).
Feel the cable inside to the left with your finger to see if there are any broken or frayed strands where the cable comes out of the housing. If you take the actuator and coupler off the clutch cable the cable should slide back and forth with no restriction at all. That will prove your cable is sound and not an issue here.
Another fairly common failure is the spring plate coming apart and shedding bits and pieces into the clutch. That usually happens at higher mileage than you have. Some of the symptoms on that are similar to what you are seeing. And I susppose the previous owner could have contributed something if they were trying to wheelie the bike by popping the clutch under power.
To check for the spring plate failure, you would have to pull the primary cover and dissassemble the clutch pack. You'll also probably find some bits and pieces of brass in the primary from the failure.
Denfromphilly (he was in that thread I linked above) has the tool for dissassembling the clutch pack and has offered to loan it to responsible BadWebers who will take care of it and return it. That is a generous offer and a good deal.
And I can send you a locking bar. It is fibreglas, those worked for me and Den, you can have it for nothing. The locking bar won't be needed unless you decide to pull the clutch basket off. You can do the plates with the clutch still on the bike.
I also happen to have a set of plates that I can let you have to replace the spring plate if that is your problem. If you take the clutch apart, I'd replace the spring plate even if it has not failed. It contributes little or nothing to using the clutch or the riding the bike and is likely to fail eventually. PM me at jacker at midmaine dot com if you want the plates, they will be cheap.
Jack |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 03:14 pm: |
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Check primary chain tension? |
Tattoodnscrewd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 06:51 pm: |
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Jack- Thanks again for all the info, I will probably go ahead and re-adjust the clutch and cable again just to make sure until I get the extra discs, then replace the spring plate with them, an e-mail will be coming shortly with my shipping address.
Blake - Primary chain is within spec, although the previous owner had the Hayden tensioner installed - as of now, no wear on the guide plate or the shoe, and the chain 'adjustment' (I know there isn't an adjustment - just different springs with the Hayden piece) is right on at this point .. I have read the archives regarding this and when I go in to replace the spring plate, I will be replacing it with the upgraded stock tensioner.
Thanks,
Brian |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 09:22 pm: |
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Hayden tensioner you say? There's your problem. I wager it is now in many pieces knocking around your primary chaincase. Seriously, those things are complete pieces of dung.
Have you checked the tension since noticing the problem? |
Tattoodnscrewd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:50 pm: |
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That is what I gathered after reading the archives, as of now it is still in very good shape(the tensioner) and the chain tension is good, but I don't plan to tempt fate, it will be replaced when I replace the spring plate with the extra plates that Jack is going to send me.
Can the primary chain affect the clutch characteristics ? I didn't think it would have any bearing on the clutch internals.
The noise I am hearing isn't from the tensioner, I am familiar with that noise, this is a true chattering in the clutch, only when in neutral and the lever is at rest.
When I tear into it to do the clutch work, and tensioner replacement I will post my findings and see how things are then. (I figure as much as the cumulative experience of this forum has helped me and others, any thing I find may help the next person, we'll see ... )
Thanks
Brian |
Tattoodnscrewd
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 03:27 am: |
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Update:
Blake - believe it or not, the Hayden tensioner looked perfect (I still replaced it with the beefy stock one)
As far as the clutch/spring plate ... aside from blueing of the steel discs - I would assume from excessive heat - they looked absolutely fine. One thing I did notice when pulling it all apart -( Jack - if you remember me saying I had to back the screw out a few turns in order for it to work )- was only now a 1/4 turn out .. wierd, almost like the clutch self adjusted. Spring plate looked good .. I'm scratching my head at this point ...
I call the local chopper shop (works from 10pm to whenever) .. he borrowed me a clutch removal tool, and ending up sending me on my way with a Screamin' Eagle kevlar clutch kit, with the extra discs, for $50 .. couldn't pass it up ... so Jack, ended up not using the discs you sent me ..
Put the clutch in, put in the new tensioner, closed it all up, adjusted the clutch and clutch lever freeplay .. fired it up shift to first, bike didn't 'lunge' but did want to roll with the lever pulled, took it for a spin, then checked again .. no roll, no chatter, smoother transition when shifting, not as choppy, no drag ... beautiful ...
Summing up my rambling .. I can't say for sure what was wrong, but my guess is warped clutch discs as they didn't look worn ... But now I am happy and ready to make my trek to WI's upper peninsula this weekend !! (I'm in Milwaukee)
Thanks guys for the help and info .. |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 07:21 am: |
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Brian,
I've not looked at any clutch plates except those from my sedately used M2 and they showed no blueing. I'm thinking it would take heavy clutch slipping (intentional or incidental) to get them blued like that. But the H-D clutches are tough and seem to cheerfully tolerate the clutch techniques used in racing/track days, stunting, drag racing, etc.
I was somewhat stunned (old school, cork plate clutch mentality) to learn that winding the throttle full open and slipping the clutch to keep the engine near readline was the standard techinique for starts in drag racing and road racing and for some of the stunting.
Glad to hear you got yours sorted out. The pulling at rest (if the adjuster screw is still at 1/4 turn backed off) would be cured by adjusting the cable length/lever freeplay adjuster on the clutch cable.
If you pull (good strong tug!) the clutch cable end away from where it enters the clutch lever perch, you'll probably find you have more than a 1/16" gap there. With the engine clutch cold, if you make that 1/16" the pulling should stop.
I noticed on my M2 (and also on the FXD I have now) that the 1/16" adjustment gap at the lever will double itself or more with everything well warmed up. So if you're still having heavy gear clash selecting low gear from a stop or pulling at a stop, adjust that lever freeplay a little tighter when cold.
So you now have three more sets of spring plate replacement plates (from your old clutch plates). In the spirit of the BadWeb consider youself a potential donor for transplants when people here appear to be having spring plate failures. :>
Did the locking bar work okay?
Jack |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 09:56 am: |
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Jack,
If a plate(s) were warped on his clutch stack, that could cause the "pulling" at rest with the clutch pulled in.
The incomplete disengagement could occur even if the clutch and cable were adjusted properly.
Just a reference point for those that may need the info down the road.
I've had lots of these clutches apart in the past, blue is not a good color.
All you need is a few thousands of cupping on a few plates and things are not going to work right..
Brian, it would be interesting to lay a straight edge across some of the metal plates to check for cupping.
Nice fix, glad it worked out for you.
Nice price on the new plates!
Brad |
Bomber
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:57 am: |
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I've also had adjusment oddities -- they calmed down alot after adjusting the clutch and cable if I pull back the lever and let it snap back on it's own a couple of times . . . .seems to help
glad ya got yours squared away, though -- have a great ride! |
Tattoodnscrewd
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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Yea, I saw blue and said to myself "glad I grabbed the SE kit" ... The pulling in first with the lever pulled in quit pretty much right away, after pulling the lever the 3 times to seat everything, and like I said, after I took it for a spin, there was no roll ... all the crap that was going on is no longer there. The only thing I wish was that shifting was a bit easier, you know, the whole neutral thing, I will just have to get used to hitting neutral while coming to a stop, instead of when stopped, seems to fall in quite easy with a few revs ...
Now if this rain would stop I'd feel even better ... Looks like I may get rained out .. we'll see.
Jack, didn't need to use the locking bar, when I do end up using it I am going to have to shave the ends to more of a point. they didn't seem to want to fit quite right, no biggie. |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 02:07 pm: |
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Bluzm2,
Good point, that would invalidate the spacing and adjustment wouldn't it.
Brian,
I did the same thing to my locking bar, a few strokes with a rasp and it was good to go. I liked the concept of the fibreglas locking bar being very unlikely to ever damage the metal parts.
Another happy Bueller made happier!
Good luck with the weather Brian, I better go riding because if you are getting rain we'll probably have the leftovers here in a few days. Funny summer here, very wet at time, very hot at time, very spectacular at times.
Nice day today though, I've had a short ride. Now I'd better go get some more of those blueberries from the old berry field before the bears get them all. Fortunately, the bears seem to be working the night shift.
Jack |
Tattoodnscrewd
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 07:39 pm: |
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Update #2 .....
Looks like I have to go back in and at least re-adjust the clutch, and clutch cable ... upshifting is fine ... transitions are still smooth, still no chatter, no excessive noise ... but it is pretty hard mainly downshifting to first, but all downshifts are harder than before .. no sludge feel .. more like brick wall feel in a way.. this is new, didn't have this before, and neutral is even harder to find unless the throttle is blipped, or not at a stop ...
I hope I can just chalk it up to adjustment ..... I'll have to pay attn to Jack's statements ...
If you pull (good strong tug!) the clutch cable end away from where it enters the clutch lever perch, you'll probably find you have more than a 1/16" gap there. With the engine clutch cold, if you make that 1/16" the pulling should stop.
I noticed on my M2 (and also on the FXD I have now) that the 1/16" adjustment gap at the lever will double itself or more with everything well warmed up. So if you're still having heavy gear clash selecting low gear from a stop or pulling at a stop, adjust that lever freeplay a little tighter when cold.
Hope that does it.
(Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on July 26, 2006) |
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Excessive chatter when in neutral on my 99 M2