| Author | Message | ||
     Hippyjoe |
Wondering what are the appreciable differences between the 97/98 bikes and the later models, 99/01 . Is the handling different with the different swingarms? Does the later, wide seat bolt right onto the earlier, slim body and tail section? Does the later, bigger tank bolt right on to the earlier frame? How were the engines spec'd on the 97/98, specifically cams and heads? Were they stock Sporty parts, were they pumped up in later years? Were there any weak links, besides the usual stuff like primary tensioner/shifter, rocker box/primary gaskets, exhaust hanger, etc.? I like the idea of the 97/98... I like the looks of the swingarm, I guess 'cause I'm used to it, it looks like the standard Harley item. I like the idea of the earlier, mechanical speedometers. It seems that a lot of the later M2's that I see for sale have/had electronic odometer failures, which isn't such a great thing, considering the maintenance intervals on things like oil pump drive gears, drive belts, etc., and considering the less-than-full-disclosure M.O. typical on places like ebay motors. One final M2 question in general--assuming the belt is good--are there parts available to swap out the front pulley w/a bigger one, and simultaneously the rear w/a smaller one, without pulling the belt off, thus lowering the final drive ratio? (Message edited by hippyjoe on May 04, 2006) | ||
| 1313 |
Answering what I can... Is the handling different with the different swingarms? I'm sure someone out there may be able to tell the difference, but the Aluminum swingarm is stiffer and a little bit heavier. It will also bolt right up (with a slight modification to the swingarm mount block or use of the later one) so it could be added if one wanted to. Does the later, wide seat bolt right onto the earlier, slim body and tail section? The frame is the same for all the years (except for a very small difference in the head tubes), so the newer seat should fit, but I'm not sure how good it would match up to the earlier tail section. I'm assuming not so well, but no firsthand experience. I remember seeing an article in Battle2Win about changing of the tanks and tails on an older M2 with the later model tank, tail and seat, but do not have the issue handy right now. Maybe someone else can chime in. Does the later, bigger tank bolt right on to the earlier frame? As above, the frames are the same so the entire later model tank and tail can go directly on the '97-'98 frame. As above I don't think the earlier seat would fit very well with the later bodywork, but again no firsthand experience. How were the engines spec'd on the 97/98, specifically cams and heads? Were they stock Sporty parts, were they pumped up in later years? The M2 cams have always been the stock Sporty 'torquey' cams. As for the heads on the '97-'98, I believe that they were the Lightning heads (but am not 100% sure). 1313 | ||
| Zenfrogmaster |
The Cyclones used D grind Sportster cams (better torque down low, with less top end horsepower). 1997-98 had Lightning heads for 83hp stock, 1999-02 used Thunderstorm heads for 91hp. Both numbers are at the crank. I think that the later wide seat, bodywork, and tank will bolt right on, but they have to be used as a set in order to mate up properly with each other. The speedo sensor failures were common, but the updated part, around $50, solves it in five minutes. | ||
| Hippyjoe |
Thanks, I think I get the idea re. the bodywork. Swingarm... "the Aluminum swingarm is stiffer and a little bit heavier." ...why would they put on a heavier, bulkier, aluminum piece? Is it b/c of the stiffness? Is the difference that noticeable? Anyone know the specs on the D cams? I'm wondering if I can install afermarket cams--N8's, Lightnings, etc.--w/no headwork? I have seen quite a few instances of people pulling the stock cams and discovering lobe wear. That ain't cool. I'm also wondering about any potentially disastrous quirks on the '97/98. I read a post in the KV about someone losing the mainshaft splines, was that maybe a one-time deal from a pulley nut backing off, or did the bikes tend to fail in that area? Any other maintenance issues unique to these bikes? J (Message edited by hippyjoe on May 04, 2006) | ||
| Aaomy |
think you may be off a little on the whole swing arm thing.. the al one is something like 200% stiffer.. and the weight issue is kinda a misnomer.. when i did the swap on my s2t.. the one i polished weighed the same as the steal one i took off.. think the whole idea came from the 99 al swing arms.. think they may have been heavier..and that idea just stuck.. even if they are heavier its such a small amount that it really dosent make a difference.. the one i weighed was a 2001..vs 96 s2t steel one.. hope this helps.. | ||
| Spike |
I don't know the specs on the stock cams, but you can throw in the lightning cams (.497 lift) with no other mods. I know other guys were using Andrews cams with no headwork, not sure if they were N6 or N8. My M2 knowledge has become a bit fuzzy, I sold my '99 back in '03. However, I don't remember anything disastrous that was specific to the '97/'98. Being a pre-'99 Buell it would have the older header with smaller outlet, older exhaust mounting, more rattle-prone front rotor, older switches, etc. If you ignore the older exhaust mount and let it rattle around it could become disastrous though, they have been known to sheer exhaust header studs when ignored long enough. I put the Y bracket on my '99 and didn't have any more problems with it. You could *possibly* see a higher likelyhood of a rear isolator failure on the earlier bike, but that probably applies to all tubers prior to the '02. Another minor thing would be the bubbling of the tank letters. Basically, any non-'02 tuber will have a standard list of things to be upgraded; exhaust mounts, shifter, detent plate, isolators, rear shock, etc. The '99+ models are further along, but that just means they have a shorter list of necessary upgrades. The benefits to the '99+ models are numerous though, stiffer swingarm, better heads, better exhaust header (more flow and better routing for less heat to the rider), more fuel range, etc. I went through the '97/'98 vs. '99+ debate myself, the only place where the earlier bike won was aesthetic quality for the narrow bodywork. Also to note- even with the '01 rear shock and lots of pre-load, the M2s feel soggy with a passenger. I still carried my then-girlfriend around frequently on my M2, the bike just wasn't as much fun that way. Also, changing the belt or rear isolators on an M2 is a complete pain. You either need a special tool to "stretch" the frame open or you need to drop the swingarm. I didn't have the tool and I didn't want to drop the swingarm, so I just lowered the motor in the rear and pried until I could get one isolator out. It still ranks up there as one of the worst motorcycle maintenance jobs I've ever performed. Other than that I loved the bike. It was a ton of fun, a good performer, could comfortably travel ~200 miles on a tank, was easy to work on, fairly reliable, and looked mean. If I could afford to own two bikes I would have held on to my '99, but I can only afford one and the Firebolt was calling my name. | ||
| 1313 |
Oops. See what happens when you wake up early and try to post to kill some time? The frame is the same for all the years (except for a very small difference in the head tube) And the extra tube to triangulate the lower front tie bar mount on the 99-up models. Sorry for the misinformation, but I was fixated on bodywork attachment (sounds like a good excuse, don't it?), 1313 | ||
| Chasespeed |
And the extra tube to triangulate the lower front tie bar mount on the 99-up models. Actually, I was gonna mention that. Anyone that has ridden a tuber without the traingulated front, and the ally swing arm, will atest to the difference in how the bike feels.... I know I can feel it... feels better/more stable under hard braking(updated frame)... and the rear doesnt feel like its wandering...(or I shoudl say, the older will feel like its wandering compared to the newer)... Chase} | ||
| Hippyjoe |
I like the looks of the steel swingarm, also it seems like a chain wouldn't come close to hitting it. I've heard a chain can gouge the al unit? So, is the 200% extra stiffness noticeable on the street? On the off chance I'd get a bike that had a fresh belt, I'd be interested in swapping pulleys for higher top end (lower rpm's on the interstate). At this point, I'm thinking that when it came time for a belt replacement, I'd cut it off and install a chain. Unless I warmed up to the belt concept--not ruling it out--then I'd get a new belt and drop the swingarm and replace the isolators while I'm in there. It's not that hard on my FXR; I'm assuming I could hang the M2 by the tail, put a floor jack under the trans, pull the top motor mount, loosen the front, and do the job. Yes or No? I don't even need to do all that w/my current bike, it should work on the Buell, I'm thinking...?? Aaomy-- your profile says you stripped the splines on the drive pulley, how did that happen? Was the mainshaft boogered up, or did you catch it in time? On the exhaust studs, if one breaks, is that enough to cause a leak at the head? So, if an exhaust stud snapped off in the past, even if it was replaced and the problem remedied, an exhaust valve is most likely cooked, and a potential buyer might not even know it without a compression test? So, lightning cams are from a Buell Lightning? Should've realized that. My mind is still stuck in the 40's... Are they from the same supplier that makes the "D" cams that see lobe wear before 20k miles? I think I'd go w/ Andrews. How is it, that lots of people jam 100,000 miles on evo Sporties w/ no problems, yet many Buells experience engine problems at 10 thousand? Exhaust studs I understand, because of the modified setup. But cam failure? Exploding primary tensioners? That's pretty lame in my book. "I went through the '97/'98 vs. '99+ debate myself, the only place where the earlier bike won was aesthetic quality for the narrow bodywork." Spike: I'm thinking the other way, I like the earlier bikes for the mechanical speedo and steel swingarm, and I'd be putting on a late model seat w/Bomber mod to the plastic for the comfort factor. I see new M2 seats cheap everywhere, and I know I could sell the older parts to someone looking for a lower/slimmer profile. Now you've got me looking back at the newer ones tho, it looks like with better heads and exhaust the balance swings back to '99-up. Then factor in the little things that were updated, hmmm... I still can't get past that electronic speedo. I have no use for a tach on a Harley, it's pretty obvious where the power drops off, I'm not going to the track. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not my thing. When I think of buying an unknown bike, I want to know as close to the honest mileage as possible, especially considering the time bombs that seem to be ticking inside older factory Buells... lots of bikes on ebay don't mention a repaired odometer unless you ask, not even then always, lots of sellers play it dumb. 1313: On the frame... I read that the tail section is on a slightly lower angle on the older bikes, another reason I was looking in that direction. With a fat seat and a fat, later tank, it might sit a little more level, potentially relieving pressure on the nads and wrists over the long haul. Basically I'm looking for a bike that I can put in 800-mile days on, back to back. I'd be welding tabs to the tail and hanging hard bags. The M2 seems like the most comfortable Buell I've tried. Also the easiest to work on. For sure I'd be getting a pre-'02 w/carb. If I'm camped out in the middle of the Sonoran desert, I can't be fiddling with something like a TPS reset, belt that snapped from eating a mesquite branch, etc. Just trying to figure out which year to go with, they're all out there, not much difference in price. Thanks for the info so far. Joe (Message edited by hippyjoe on May 04, 2006) | ||
| Hippyjoe |
Chase, I'll take that as another vote for the later years. What about putting a steel swing arm on a newer frame for chain clearance? Or is that a dumb idea, I suppose w/ a good o-ring chain and the right tension it probably clears the alu unit just fine? Jeezis Chr!st I wrote a lot of crap. | ||
| Bomber |
the "bomber mod?" wow, I'm famous! ;-} Joe -- most chain conversion kits come with some kind of swingarm protection device -- a lil skateboad wheel like thingie -- other have mounted an old primary chain tensioner plastic bit to the top of the swingarm . . . .either works well | ||
| Aaomy |
if you like the steel swing arm go with it.. personally i liked the al one.. so i put it on my s2t.. personally i like the belts.. if they are adjusted too tight they some times will punch stones and stuff threw.. personally i dont adjust the belt to the speck called out in the manual.. i undo the shock and pivot the swing arm threw its stroke.. at the tightest place i add another 3/4 to 1" of play in the belt.. set my axel adjusters their and re attach my shock.. the belt looks loose as hell but works flawless.. if you want a taller gearing go with a 29 or 30 tooth front sprocket.. early bikes had a problem with the front sprocket splines ripping out.. mine was eating its way threw and you could even see the nut eating its way threw the locking plate.. i replaced it and the splines on the shaft are fine.. the mild steel the pulley is made from is softer.. personally i think the exhaust studs break from over tightening the exhaust flanges down,, crushing the gaskets.. i use a special nut and locking plate.. you tighten them to 6 ft lbs of torque and put on the keeper plate and an e clip.. that way you dont have to worry about the nuts backing off or you getting worried and keep adjusting them untill they are over tightened.. if i remember right,, buell lightening cams and harley screamin eagle bolt in cams are the same.. good cams.. they are very similar to andrew n8 cams too i think.. can check all the numbers latter if you want me to.. personally they are all good cams.. i havent herd of the problem with cams.. lifters going bad and wiping out cams yes but not just cams going bad.. ps if you want ease of working on and long distance bike,,, s2 or even better s2t,, but im kinda biased!!!!! | ||
| Djkaplan |
"are there parts available to swap out the front pulley w/a bigger one, and simultaneously the rear w/a smaller one, without pulling the belt off, thus lowering the final drive ratio?" Euro-spec tubers had much lower final drive ratios and used the same belt. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"I'd be putting on a late model seat w/Bomber mod to the plastic for the comfort factor." To me, the "Bomber mod" is relocating the voltage regulator under the seat. | ||
| Spike |
Lightning is just the term some use for that cam set, they're the same as the ones used in the S1/X1 lightnings. They are also identical to the Screamin' beagle bolt-in XL cams. I got mine from ebay ad that listed buell valvetrain parts. They seemed to be going for ~$150 for used sets when labeled appropriately, but I got mine for ~$100 along with a set of lifters, pushrods, etc. I have heard of the motors coming apart at 10k-20k miles, but plenty go further than that. I beat my M2 pretty hard, it had over 17k when I sold it and wasn't showing any signs of failing. I know at least some of the failures were due to the failed oil pump drive gears. The early primary tensioners had a relatively thin backing plate, causing them to bend/fail under high loads. The problem isn't as likely to show up on a sportster that's lugged around all its life, but in a Buell where it gets a thorough beating the tensioner wasn't likely to survive. The updated tensioners have much thicker backing plates and have had a much better service record. I had always thought that if I picked up another tuber I'd start by tearing it down and doing all the upgrades at once. The problem with my M2 was doing the upgrades one at a time as I learned about them or as stuff broke. The electronic speedo really shouldn't cause a problem. The failures I know of seemed to all come from the speedo drive sensor in the tranny, and the newest version fixes that completely. I'd be more worried about damaging the old speedo drive while changing a tire or something. Different mentalities I guess. | ||
| Hippyjoe |
On the cam lobe wear--I got from that on a search in the KV, saw quite a few people mentioning it. The Bomber mod, heheh, that's pretty cool. That's the real way to "chop" a Buell, IMO. That's a good tip, btw, using a primary shoe nailed to the swingarm. I used a rubber wheel once on a shovel, it was a POS. Actually it was an example of overengineering, unnecessary and it failed early. worst 70 bucks I ever spent. Aaomy those are some good tips. If and when I need to put in cams I'll research what's available, I was just kind of making sure that decent bolt-ins were available before committing to an engine. What I like in a cam set is good torque, quiet valvetrain, cool engine oil temp, and not having to pull the heads if I don't need to do a top end. As for the S2, I rode one, it's not for me. I'm not built for that bike. Where can I find the Euro-spec drive pulleys? Belt sounds crazy loose, anyone ever had one jump off? I've worked in shops, I learned how not to break stuff, heheh. I suppose I could get used to an electronic speedo, or I could prolly just stick an old one w/ a cable on if it got on my nerves. As far as Sporty vs. Buell--the guys I was thinking of flogged their Sporties pretty damn hard, that was in the 80's-mid 90's. You'd think that things like oil pump drive gears and primary tensioners shouldn't get weaker in later model years... then again, look at the Evo cam bearings, they went from a perfectly good US stainless retainer to a German plastic staggered bearing, those things would fail under normal use early on and take out the whole goddamned right side engine case. F*ckin Harley, eh! Screamin beagle, tha's funny, never heard that one before, hahaha. | ||
| Hippyjoe |
Back to the "triangulated lower front tie bar" later frame update... Is that just a short tube welded between two frame rails? Cause if it's easy to get to, and it's just an added bar, I could cut some tubing and weld it in to an earlier frame... . | ||
| Rex |
battle2win magazine showed a 97 buell having the newer wider body work put on it. should work I put the S3 tank on my 97 m2. the motors. my 97 buell did not have the newer thunderstorm heads and pistons of the newer m2's. cams were the same I believe. newer swingarm can be put on the older tubers. some slight grinding is necessary, I believe. that too was covered in the battle2win magazines. I also put the S3 fairing on my M2. thanks, rex | ||
| Bomber |
Hippy -- re frame tube -- you're right, you could weld in that member -- also bolt on aluminum units available from a couple of sources (look kind trick to my eyes) | ||
| Chasespeed |
Is that just a short tube welded between two frame rails? Cause if it's easy to get to, and it's just an added bar, I could cut some tubing and weld it in to an earlier frame... . Kind of... There is a V shaped hangar where the front Heim attaches to the engine/case... it goes from there BACK to another part of the frame, on teh left side, stiffens up the steering tube, and what not.. Someone actually makes a Billet bolt-in version.. i know you can buy this from Al @ American Sport Bike...dont know the cost though. I wasnt actually voting one way of the other between older and later... I love the S1, adn I love my X1... (Aaron, teh cams in the X1 are equivilant to andrews N4's I believe, I thought someone said N8 once, but, never found that for sure) EDIT, looking at teh numbers, it looks like the N4s are the equivilant to what is in a X1.... Chase} (Message edited by chasespeed on May 05, 2006) | ||
| Djkaplan |
I have one of the "2nd Gen" M2s, but I've always thought the 1st Gen M2's were the better looking of the breed. The original Cyclone looks leaner and less civilized than the softer, more rounded Manta tanked version. Stock though, the later gen Cyclones have a lot more power and top speed. A lot of people criticize the Barca-lounger seat width of the 00-02's, but it is soooo comfortable. If my butt didn't like it so much, I'd complain. | ||
| Hippyjoe |
Thanks for the info, I guess for what I'm looking to do, the later models make more sense. couple more questions... On the '99 model year... did the M2 have the same engine as the S3? I know the '99 M2 was carbureted, the '99 S3 injected... how about the engine internals, were the heads and cams the same, or different? Also... were the S3's in '99 subject to the same "weak links" as the '99 M2's, i.e. primary tensioner, oil pump drive gear, exhaust hanger, etc., etc... ?? Thanks again, quite a bit of knowledge here... | ||
| Jackbequick |
Joe, My opinion is don't be afraid of any of the tubers around the 2000 mark if you are willing to correct or preempt the problems and the price is good. And the last couple of years they were pretty well debugged. My 2000 M2 has turned into a reliable ride. I've put 2,000 miles on it this year already and not had a problem yet that was of any note. Do your pre ride checks, keep an eye on things, and it seals the partnership. Jack | ||
| Djkaplan |
The S3 for 99-02 had an identical engine to the X1. The X1/S3 engines had more radical cam timing than the M2. "My 2000 M2 has turned into a reliable ride. " I bought my 2000 M2 brand new. Except for a bad exhaust valve guide and a rocker box leak fixed under warranty, the only thing that has gone wrong on my bike is the stator at 30,000 miles. The primary tensioner shoe never disintegrated, the speedo sensor never failed, the gear for the oil-pump drive looks fine, and my front engine mount never broke. All of this will probably happen tomorrow now that I bragged about it. | ||
| Hippyjoe |
All of this will probably happen tomorrow now that I bragged about it. Haha, that's the way it goes, eh? Bad exhaust guide, what happened? Did you need a new head? Now that I've narrowed the search down to a particular model run... what I'm after with all these questions is trying to figure out what a potential bike is worth to me, you know, factoring in existing condition vs. upgrades needed. I realize it's a buyer's market...so, if I need to sell, I don't want to lose the farm. After 20 years on Harleys, I finally started riding Buells this winter. It passes the initial tests, but... the only way to know if I can live with that kind of change is to own one for a while, which entails putting money into it to make it fit my needs. If after a while it's not working, I'd prefer not to lose my ass in the exchange. Therefore all the questions, and I appreciate all the responses. There aren't many M2's for sale close to me, so I've got to appraise the condition "sight unseen," then drive up to ~800 miles on a blind purchase. Typically the seller is on ebay, or a one-time poster here. It really helps to get input beforehand from people who know the ropes.} | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Bad exhaust guide, what happened? Did you need a new head? " Sometime during the bike's early life, before I bought it brand new, it galled the rear exhaust valve guide. Right from the showroom floor, the engine had a very loud clicking noise and ate a lot of oil. I was able to get it fixed under warranty (but not from the dealer I bought the bike from). The head didn't have to be replaced, just the exhaust valve guide and valve. It's been running great ever since, with very little oil consumption at 30,000 hard miles. | ||
| Bigblock |
The Andrews N-6 are a bolt in, and I love the way they run, I have 28,000 miles on mine. The stock M2 cams were showing wear at 1000 miles when I did the swap! I had to replace the lifters, too! Broke her in by factory specs, too, I'll never do that again! The N-8 andrews actaully specs out just a hair smaller than the N-6 , if I remember right, that was 6 years ago, I don't have all those specs floating around in my empty little head any more. I think the N-6 ia as big as you can go with the stock heads. The screamin eagle 536(?) cams work real good, too, but you need to valve spring the heads, atleast. I think the N-4 specs the same as the X-1 cams. In my opinion, I like the N-6 cams better. You may as well stick with the stock cam if you would use the X-1 cam, the N-6 will really wake her up. BUT, you would be advised to do a little carb rejetting, and maybe atleast a muffler , if you can find a race pipe, I know people have had good results there, too, but I just have a V+H can on mine. Just have fun, the carb work is easy, and make sure you get the updated muffler mount. | ||
| Bigblock |
Oh, and the 99 and earlier cams have a different drive gear, you have to watch out for that. I had to press off the gear from my old cams and press it onto the new andrews cam. This is tricky, as you need to be careful to maintain accurate cam timing. They shipped me the wrong one. You need to be careful of that when ordering your cams. | ||
| Rex |
Put S1 Cams in my 97 M2. Also Thunderstorm heads and pistons, vance and hines, jagg oil cooler, Six speed tranny, european gearing, 42 mm mikuni, and race ignition. Highway is great. 80 or so at 3,000 rpm. Very smooth. REX  | ||
| Hippyjoe |
I picked up an '00 near me. I guess I got the early/late model. It's got many of the updates done, a cf filter and a VH slip-on, it runs pretty sweet. It's got 11k miles, and considering others' experiences here I think the cams and oil pump drive gear are due for a look. I'll swap in the N6/N8, what is the best source? They're 300 for the set at CCI. Bigblock, when you swapped your cams, did you keep the stock pushrods and covers? Did you need to change cam shims? Have to pull the heads? My motor is tight, the rocker box gaskets are new, I'd rather not mess with the top end. Although cam lobe/oil pump drive gear failure is pretty big news. Can the cam cover be pulled without removing the heads? I've tried searching the KV but haven't found all the answers yet. Thanks everyone for the input. With the knowledge I've gained here I was ready to move on the right bike for me when it came up. Rex, that's a nice-looking bike. Here's a pic of mine with the barcalounger, it's pretty comfy.  | ||
| Jackbequick |
Joe, Some of the history on the failed gears has some details on the techniques/shortcuts for replacing the gear. Also, you can drop the oil pump and use a mirror and flashlight to inspect the gear. You should be able to tell by that if yours is failing or not. I've had 2000 M2 about 18 months now, it has about 6,000 miles on it now. My gear is running quiet so I have not even inspected it but probably will this winter. "Barcalounger", is that the stock seat? I liked the seat at first but was in severe pain after an hour on the stock seat. I have a Corbin now I got used off eBay, it is wonderful in comparison. I think individual physiology can make the difference on the comfort/discomfort of the stock seat but the M2's seats sure have a bad rep. Jack | ||
| Bomber |
you can pull the cam cover without disturbing the heads, but pull the rockercovers and rockers to release the tension on the pushrods and cams -- bout 30 minutes work the second time ;-} | ||
| Hippyjoe |
Jack-- yep, stock seat in the pic. I slid around on it, so I replaced it w/the big Corbin seat that came w/the bike, very comfy. Also mounted taller bars from a Blast. The bike now fits me much better than the "T" models. Once I mount my windshield and hard bags I guess I'll have an M2T. About the only other comfort improvement I can think of is some forward-mounted "highway-style" pegs, are those available for these bikes? As for inspecting the O.P. drive gear... from what I've seen here, their safe service life is about the same as the stock camshafts... since I need to pull the cover to replace the cams, I figure, as long as I'm in there, I'll swap out the gear. I've heard that the pre-'99 drive gear may be a better item, anyone know if this is the case? Not sure if I can find someone to "case-harden" near me. On the cam installation-- what about if I let the lifters bleed down, can I pull out the cams one at a time? I'm wondering if I could push up on the tappet rollers with my finger&thumb just enough to slide the cams out?? Another question--do cams in these motors get shimmed for end play like the big twins? Thanks for the help! Joe |
