| Author | Message | ||
     Formerslimjim |
Recently purchased a 2000 s3t with aftermarket exhaust pipes (no idea of manuf.), wileyco muffler, modified air box with K&N, and Power Commander III. Generally runs like crap at part throttle until about 2,500-3,000 rpm. Very responsive at WOT and above 3,000. When I bought the bike I thought the PCIII needed some fine tuning so I wasn't too concerned. On a recent long ride on the freeway at a steady 75 mph for 30 min the check engine light came on - O2 sensor code. I've put on a couple hundred miles before the light came on and it hasn't come on since then which was about another 50 miles ago. Looking into this there is no o2 sensor on the bike - not even the 02 bung on the pipes or the connector under the battery box / above the starter. This raises many questions. Anyone else running their DDFI like this? Why don't I get a check engine light every time I ride the bike? Can the PCIII be programmed to control the low rpm at part throttle range without an o2 sensor so I can continue to use it 100% open loop as it is right now? Should I have an o2 sensor bung welded on the pipe so I can use a heated sensor as suggested by Dynojet? | ||
| Formerslimjim |
C'mon, anyone? Even bad advice is welcome at this point. | ||
| Dave |
I don'tr recall some one raving of good results with a Power Commander on a Tuber. All I have heard of is problems. Maybe I haven't been paying attention though. DAve | ||
| Japbikeboy |
I would suggest disconnecting the Power Commander completely, reconnect your stock ECM, and try that. If you start getting a "popping" on decel or surging at low steady RPM's then go to your local dealer and have them install a Techlusion, or also known as a TFI. My shop has had nothing but bad results with the PCIII's on any Harley product. Good luck. (Message edited by japbikeboy on November 23, 2005) | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Well that answers the PCIII issue. I'm sure I have to get an o2 sensor on the bike though. I'll tinker with it alittle after that but I won't throw good money after bad - not going to go for their heated o2 sensor. It's going to eBay if I can't get it tuned after installing the stock o2. I've been wanting an excuse to build a fully programmable Megasquirt unit - maybe this is it. The TFI sounds interesting though. From what I've read, the TFI tunes like a carb, which is as easy as it gets. (Message edited by formerSlimJim on November 24, 2005) | ||
| Dave |
I've had terrific results with my Buell race kit (ECM, K&N, header & muffler) on my '99 S3. I've been through a couple O2 sensors but the kit works well. DAve | ||
| Fullpower |
wait a minute here.... ou say you are running a set of headers with NO O2 sensor mounting bung? that will not work correctly with DDFI, nor will a pc111 do anything useful without an o2 sensor input. might as well put a carburetor on it. | ||
| Opto |
Can the PCIII be programmed to control the low rpm at part throttle range without an o2 sensor so I can continue to use it 100% open loop as it is right now? That's the first question that needs to be answered, but I can't answer it. Try a search on the XBoard for PCIII or visit their website. Is the fuel consumption OK and do the plugs look OK? | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Thanks for feedback guys. The rear plug looks perfect. The front one appears dark brown maybe slightly rich but nothing out of the ordinary. Also, I checked the compression and both cyls are between 160 - 165 psi, so I am confident that internal problems are not contributing to the problem. Yes, I have no o2 sensor which may be part of the problem and putting one on is probably the first step I should take if I want to stay with a FI system. I can buy a stainless steel o2 bung from Summit, weld it in, and at least take that variable out of the equation. The interesting part is the stock ECU does not use the o2 signal until the engine is at operating temp, above 2,500 rpm, and below a certain % of throttle. I'm not totally convinced that the missing o2 sensor is the problem since at above 2,500 - 3,000 rpm it seems to run great. If I could get the lower rpm, part throttle range tuned in, I would be happy. The PCIII does not control the fuel in the cruise range of operation without their heated o2 sensor. Actually I think it can but it needs to be tuned with special software and a dyno at one of their authorized providers - ain't gonna happen. I struggle with putting more money into the PCIII since too many have had bad luck with them on tubers. My options TFI plus o2 sensor Buell race ECU plus o2 sensor Carb minus lots of sensors Megasquirt plus?, minus? (my own red herring) | ||
| Oldog |
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/efi_project_00.htm alternative EFI Slim: PC3 is not a total bust I have one ON my X1 and it runs fine, I used it with the factory map for my bike, it eliminated the Ping problem that I had on take off on a hot day. before you R&R check into whats available for PC3 on their site there are maps to use 1st get the O2 and bung issue sorted. | ||
| Opto |
Megasquirt is doable, I'll soon be doing a run on a dyno back to back with a stock ecm to make sure that Megasquirt at least doesn't lose power compared to stock. I know it does everything else right but need to prove at least to myself that no power is lost. If that goes OK then I'll design a Buell-specific PCB to make it easier and more compact for Buell owners (I want to squirt a 2nd Buell). But if you can get your PCIII tuned in at low revs that would be a much quicker and cheaper solution, if you go the Megasquirt way you will need to fit a wideband O2 or get the bike tuned on a dyno, one or the other. | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Opto, With your Megasquirt unit are you using Speed Density or Alpha-N to control fuel? | ||
| Opto |
Alpha-n, sharing tps, head temp sensor and air temp sensor with stock ecm. Stock ecm runs everything except the 2 injectors. | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Well I think I figured out the main source of the problem. I took the Wileyco off this evening to check the packing and it does not have any of its insides - it's an empty can. That's gotta hurt the low end alot - actually it's probably worse than a straight pipe. Damn the guy that sold me the bike! So Opto, Did you try Speed Density or did you just go directly to Alpha-N? | ||
| Opto |
I had a bit of a play with speed density, went to alpha-n, and never looked back. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
We are a Dyno Jet Tuning Center, so we don't sell install service or tune any of the DFO devises. I have installed a few hundred PCIIIr on H-D and PCIII on Buells. There are several threads in the archives on a few different ways to tune Buells. Your bike with the 02 sensor removed is in open loop all the time and the logic inside the ECM does not understand that condition. Check the American Sport Bike Banner and take a look at some of the recent post there on this subject. If you want to send me a message I can explain how your Open/Closed Loop System should work. ... Terry | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Terry, I'm a little confused why I should go to American Sport Bike's site since they don't have any tech info or discussion board? I understand open/closed loop. The puzzling part for me is that there is no o2 sensor on the bike but it only puts out an o2 sensor code on a long high speed cruise and even then it's not every time. My experience with EFI systems in the past has been that if a sensor is unconnected a code is set almost immediately and the EFI uses a default setting for the missing sensor or goes to a limp home mode. Does the PCIII that is piggy backed on the system affect the stock ECM's ability to tell that the sensor is missing? Whatever it is, I'm definitely putting an o2 sensor back on so I can get everything back to square one. So what is your recommendation on the heated o2 sensor so that the closed loop portion of the map can also be controlled by the PCIII? | ||
| Opto |
Jim, Maybe the PCIII is putting out a simulated O2 sensor signal to fool the ecm? If you could get hold of a wiring diagram you would be able to check if the O2 sensor input on the ecm is connected to anything. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
It seems like the ECM throws a code when there is a short to ground. Sometimes on the tubers it happens while MAPPING a PC and having the 02 disconnected. Just not all the time, I am trying to find out why from a few sources at Buell. ... Al has posted several ECM and tuning issues under his Bad Web banner not his site. There are a few of us working on some new ways of tuning XB's and I think we will make it work out better for all. ... Terry (Message edited by buelldyno_guy on December 21, 2005) | ||
| Al_lighton |
Opto is correct, in that the PCIII spoofs the O2 signal to the ECM. I don't know the nature of the spoof, i.e., does it use the signal from the 4-wire sensor to generate an offset signal to the ECM, or does it merely send a signal to keep the ECM from throwing a code. I always thought it was the former, and would have thought that a non-existant signal on the 4-wire sensor would cause a similar signal on the spoof to the ECM. While doing the tuning (with a race ECM) that Terry mentions above, we disconnected the O2 sensor, and did MANY runs that way. This is necessary as we were altering the ECM fuel table values, trying to optimize the A/F ratios without the closed loop algorithms changing them at the same time. Oddly enough, we never got a fault light on the dash. I've since disconnected it and driven the bike around and tried to make it light, and could not make light. Not sure if the race ECM behaves differently than the stock ECM in this regard, and I'm anxious to hear what Terry finds out from Buell on this. So it doesn't really surprise me that the spoofed O2 signal the ECM sees from the PCIII doesn't cause the ECM to fault all the time. I'm surprised it faults at high speed at all. PCIII's are workable on tube frame Buells, but that said, they aren't without their issues. There is a fair amount of temperature sensitivity to the maps (i.e., map it when cold, the map is off when it is hot, and vice versa). A PCIII without the 4 wire sensor is about worthless, so if you're considering running the bike without the 4 wire sensor, you might as well just remove the PCIII. The new tuner that will let you modify your ECM internal map is going to make PCIIIs obsolete, though. | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Hopefully that tuner you're talking about also does TPS reset - that would kill two birds with one stone. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Indeed it does, AFV too...or it will, anyway. The version that we were testing with did not have that feature in it yet, but it is being added now. I'm still waiting for the next beta version of the code to confirm it. I've said it a bunch of times, but I'll repeat it. Don't think for a minute that you'll be able to tune with it without at minimum a wideband O2 sensor and data acquisition system, and preferably a dynojet 250. Doing it without is a good way to hole a piston. Al | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Yeah I assumed I would need a WBo2 and dyno time no matter what I used. They are both on my Christmas list - at least the WBo2 is. For a dyno, I am considering a Veypor or a VR2 ... http://www.veypor.com/product.html I haven't noticed anyone on this site talk about them even though they will do the dyno work, drag runs, run analysis, etc. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Jim, It's buelldyno_guy Terry and I am working with Al on the dyno part of this. I have reviewed the Veopr Data Acquisition unit for use on our race bike. It seems like it will work for some of what you want, but it's really some time on a "Load Control" dyno you need to purchase. To help in our research I have installed a Datona Sensors "WEGO II" system which gives you a A/F read-out and will store up to hrs of A/F, T/P and RPM for down load. I can ride the bike over a closed loop course or a given loop road course and then down load and check the data. Based on what you see in the data you could make some changes to the MAP. It will be sort of hit and miss but as long as you fixed the lean spots first it could work. We would take the data go to the dyno room use load control to hold the RPM where we need to make changes and check that range through several T/P settings. As Al has stated soon we will be working on some canned MAPS to use on some specific ECM, A/C, and Exhaust configurations. . ... Terry | ||
| Firemanjim |
Hey Opto,any more updates on your Megasquirt on tubers?Iam interseted in some way to FI my turbo Buell. | ||
| Opto |
Jim, Megasquirt will going into the Uly soon. Another BWB'er and I are working independently on a smaller PCB designed to fit more easily in a Buell - it will only have the components required to run a Buell, hopefully I'll be able to fit it under the seat of the XB12S instead of under the airbox cover. I have no experience with turbo's but understand you'll need some spark retard under boost. Megasquirt could do the fuel side no worries as long as you can get a reasonable manifold air pressure signal to it - it would need to be fairly well damped at idle and small throttle openings. Megasquirt can theoretically do the spark side too but no-one that I have heard of has actually done it yet on a Buell/Harley. There will be an interesting new addition to the MS family soon, a pre-built sealed MicroSquirt capable of doing spark (with dwell control) for oddfire engines as well as fuel. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Opto,on turbo you need to be able to raise fueling in conjunction with boost.Does MS use a 1 bar sensor or?? Probably need at least a 2 bar. I talked to Al today also. I have a tuber FI set-up and am thinking with his DI and a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator and some better flowing injectors I might be able to get something. But keep me in the loop on MS--I was wondering about the HD/Buell oddfire set-up. | ||
| Opto |
MS handles boost no worries, 2 bar is standard, can take 3 or 4 bar sensor. MS is currently running fuel and ignition on a lot of boosted cars, all even-fire engines. Trouble is, it's not plug'n'play. But what it can do is on par at least with expensive aftermarket ecu's. The Microsquirt should come out with hybrid alpha-n/speed density meaning you could use throttle position for down low fueling and MAP everywhere else. For the oddfire ignition I think you'll need 2 sensors on the cam or crank, each with it's own trigger/s. Not real sure, it's not released yet. At the end of the day I would think you'll need some spark retard for high boost and warmer IAT's so I can't see a Buell ecm really being up to the job, no matter what lookup tables you put in it, unless you substitute the TPS signal with a MAP signal, and that could be very interesting to say the least. It might even work very nicely. But MS and any other ecu is no easy street, just MS has lots of online support and costs less but takes more time. An open wallet can fix a few issues with other ecu's but not with MS. I've seen a pic or two of a turboed Buell, makes me wonder what was used for fuel and ignition and how much boost. | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Another BWB'er and I are working independently on a smaller PCB designed to fit more easily in a Buell - it will only have the components required to run a Buell Opto.... that other BWB'er would be me.  I've been working on the PCB layout today. The components are packed in tighter than a v3.0 - very small. | ||
| Opto |
Well I was gonna email you tonight to let you know there was a bit more traffic on your thread! And when I said "independently" it meant the PCB's will be different, but we did collaborate a fair bit on the schematic. I never asked you to go down the MS road !  but the more that do the more benefits to all. I'm so happy to see one more Buell owner give it a go. | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Hey Opto. I didn't think you realized that I was "Formerslimjim". I couldn't remember if we met on this site or www.msefi.com. If my memory is working right, mine will be the 5th Megasquirted Buell on record but I think many will follow once the Microsquirt comes to market. |
