| Author |
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Fravel
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:21 pm: | 
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Kevin, I pm'd you. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:24 pm: |
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I'm game. Now, I don't have a dyno, but I know DirectLink and would be happy to help in getting the bike tuned as good as possible in a reasonable amount of time for such a test. I know that with Directlink, we can tune a bike for driveability, so forget that part, we'd just stick to tuning the WOT runs to get a representative torque, HP, and fuel curve. I would be more than happy to participate in a test like this, and would burn some frequent flyer miles to show up at whereever the test is to be performed and help in any way possible, be it wrenching the pipes on and off the bikes, doing the tuning, supplying some of the test HW, etc.
Kevin,
Sell me an SS built like your one that is producing 104 and I'll provide it for the test. You don't have to give away anything.
Who will pony up the dyno time?
Al |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:33 pm: |
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I think a "driveability tune" should be performed to the bike with the "claimed" pipe on it though. |
Captjim
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:40 pm: |
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The Drummer SS chart that started this thread is nice to read for curve shape and air/fuel value but that's about all. Dyno charts must be read by comparison only.
1) Dyno stock
2) Modify bike, tune, Dyno with mods.
Compare these two runs to get a measurement of performance gain.
Posting a lone chart with absolute values is meaningless. Look at the work Al and Terry have done with the Micron and Direct Link. They always look at relative changes for particular mods. This is how dyno tuning and comparisons are supposed to be done. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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Cool... Maybe I'll finally get to repay you the Margaritas I owe you Al  . I doubt I'll find another air filled swimming pool cover to convince you to dive onto from a second story walkway though . |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:13 pm: |
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Like I mentioned,
We have a bike and the Dyno.
I just need a tuner and the software.
Anyone that needs to can get ahold of me to try to get something worked out if need be:
craig @ ifmracing.com
Cell # 319-290-9453
I would have a bed for you too Al if you were able to make the trip. (you need to like animals though) |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:41 pm: |
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Sorry Craig... I didn't see that . Have at it . |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:47 pm: |
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Well, I could offer the loan of my jardine (aluminum) for the test. If it is needed.
I have the "quiet" adapter as well.
Let me know about the when and where. We can work out shipping from there.
I am very interested in seeing back to back results under controlled conditions. |
Drift
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:17 pm: |
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I know...Let's have a spelling contest.... |
Stealthxb
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:20 pm: |
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Ain't nobody that lucky. |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:56 pm: |
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No prob M1, not trying to shun you out of the testing, just trying to get the most things in one place. Logistics and all that crap. |
Darktwin79
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:56 pm: |
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Posting a lone chart with absolute values is meaningless. Look at the work Al and Terry have done with the Micron and Direct Link. They always look at relative changes for particular mods. This is how dyno tuning and comparisons are supposed to be done.
Sounds like you are an expert.  } |
Dew
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 07:00 pm: |
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If there's a shootout, I have completely stock '05 9 to offer, Race ECM & Filter to arrive any day.....I'll hold off on installation and would consider it an honor to travel great distances (East of Mississippi) to take part (especially with a "free exhaust" incentive). |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 08:03 pm: |
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My bike is no where near stock any more or I'd offer it up. Unless someone wants to see the results on a 9 converted into a 1250.
That would kind of negate the whole purpose of the test though. Win some lose some. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 12:12 am: |
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Kevin and I talked...He's backlogged on orders and doesn't have a pipe to sell to me immediately, but I asked him to put me in line for a drummer SS, not only for this particular test, but also to support mapping for that pipe as well. Based on the time that he said the quantity backlog equals, it should be more than enough time to bring the rest of the logistics together.
Craig, if you can supply the bike (XB12) and dyno, I'll supply the SW and a directlink Keyed ECM that can be installed, and I'll be there to help run it and help with the mech work. I have a D&D pipe that I can bring if D&D doesn't want to play (I'll ask them). I have a Latus Slip-on, that is currently discontinued but I'm working on bringing back. Micron can supply one of their pipes, and in fact, Doug from Annitori (Micron US Distributor) said he'd love to attend the proceedings. I told Terry, he said he'd love to come and help (retired airline employee, he gets to fly for cheap everywhere). I'll call Travis at Jardine, see if they want to play. Not sure where a Ti-force or Force will come from, I don't have a working relation with their pipes other than through Drag Specialties at this time. Craig, do you have a Buell race pipe there for that bike?
Per how Steve proposed it, I think it would work out best if the manufacturer supplied the pipe, and Jonathan's (MrCuell) logic sure seemed sound to me. But I would rather have the test performed on all the logical available pipes, regardless of whether a manufacturer is willing to supply the pipe or not. Not sure how the bike owner gets to keep the pipe of their choice if it isn't provided by the manufacturer, but we ought to be able to figure something out.
This test should generate a fair amount of publicity for Technoresearch/DirectLink, I'll see if we can get them to supply the key for tuning the ECM on the bike for however it gets left after the test. In fact, M1Combat's idea of doing the full tune on the combination left on the donor bike is good, we could use that to bring the Waterloo dyno operators up to snuff on the process so that you can continue to tune bikes there that way.
As much as I'd love to characterize both the 9 and the 12, I think that might be a bit ambitious. This kind of work will clog a dyno for a couple days minimum with just one bike, and it would be longer with 2 bikes. But if we had enough folks helping, we could have one crew modifying one bike while the other is running on the dyno, and maybe it could be done in close to the same amount of dyno time.
Craig,
See if you can figure out a date there that works for your shop 30-60 days out and doesn't overlap any of the AMA events (Fontana, Infineon, Laguna Seca, Miller,etc.), and I'll see if I can't collect all these pipes together.
Kevin, if you can work within that timeframe, that would be great.
Once upon a time, we all sponsored this kind of product research stuff. It was called "Battle2Win Subscription". Trouble was, the "sponsorship" couldn't make ends meet and it went away, much to ours (and I'm sure Reg Kitrelle's) chagrin. Bummer. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 12:52 am: |
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Drummer SS posts $1.04
To all you Drummer Guys out there, please understand "I believe Kevin's work is for real and I am sure he build a great muffler." He must, as there too many happy customers if he didn't.
Now having said that, I think it's funny that after 4 years of dyno tuning a few thousand motorcycles and signing my work with a $ sign, someone post his run using the same $ but adds .04.
Al will be posting our runs when we are finished but feel "It's not about the number, It's about how you get there." It has taken longer than we hoped to develop the Micron/Open AirBox MAP for XB12 ECMs. That MAP removes both the rich and lean spots without adding any bias to the AFV. As of today it still makes more "SAE" power & torque, sooner and longer that anything else we have seen. Between Al's ULY and mine we are approaching 260 full dyno pulls and are very close. But I think there's a saying "Close only Counts in Horse Shoes and Hand Grenades." I don't know or care who is developing other DL maps and what A/F tuning standard will be applied, as what is OK to some may be lean or rich to others. But I know we all want this to work for everybody's sake. In my MAP as there are still a few cells I am not happy with, but I am a Tuner and I am never happy. Most of you understand this is a "Down Load Program" where you don't watch me tune your bike and I don't get to see your bike on my screen. Therefore making sure it is right on my bike is the only way I know how to do it.
Al, Brian and I need to know that what we are developing is technically correct and for those who understand what I am talking about. I touched one button in the Winpep 7 software on the dyno today and turned my 100/83 run into 103/87 without running the bike. That is why we measure everything in SAE HP not STD or Uncorrected. . ... Terry |
Plag
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 01:00 am: |
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Gentlemen - I applaud you all. This is one of the most constructive things I've seen come out of any public forum! I along with the rest of the masses are looking forward to the results. Thank you!
Parry |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 01:25 am: |
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If we do this, we should also set up a laptop operating as an audio recorder to capture the sound clips. Prior to Buell motorcycles taking over a good much of my life, I had a pretty kick butt (for it's time, circa 2000) digital audio home studio. I'm sure I could scare up the gear (i.e., condensor mic, preamp with compression, A/D, SW, etc) for getting a good audio capture of each pipe.
I could probably operate that gear in addition to doing the tuning, and might even be able to run it on the same laptop as DirectLink. But it'd slow me down a bit on the tuning. If Terry comes, he could do the tuning using his laptop and I could dedicate myself to capturing the audio to perfection using mine. Capturing an exhaust accurately is not an easy thing to do. It would take some playing to get levels right, and would very likely involve playing with a compressor to get it to sound good. Done wrong, that would sound unnatural. It takes some tweaking and ears to get it right.
Nothing better than having a mic with the same settings, distance, etc. to record the sound for comparison purposes. Exhaust Sound clips on the web using different ambient conditions and recording methods are just as invalid as using multiple dyno's to compare performance runs. There are a very large number of people that buy a pipe more because of sound than performance, I speak to them every week. It is the primary evaluation parameter for some, and certainly important to many. We should capture it accurately in order to best take advantage of the opportunity we have with the pipes all in the same controlled environment. |
Prior
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 01:56 am: |
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I totally agree that it's time for a true comparison between exhausts, as well as other product comparisons, like was done in Battle2Win back in the day. It'll give each rider a chance to decide what works best for his/her ride and where they ride it at.
It's also an excellent opportunity to develop fuel maps etc. for each modification that hasn't been available before. As Al stated, a huge opportunity for Technoresearch/DirectLink to find a correct tune for each modification we test. Imagine the ability to purchase the DirectLink software directly from Al, with maps programmed in based on the modifications you already have done to your bike- guess work and testing is done.
Throw in a sound capture of each exhaust on the dyno along with a few pics of what it looks like mounted to the bike, you have an objective comparison of each exhaust based on sound and aesthetics and a subjective comparison based on dyno results.
If this test happens, capture as many aspects of it as possible, report what is found, let each Bueller make up their own mind.
I shot Craig an email, my XB12R is available for the test, since I have my Cyclone back with me (finally), she's broken in, run the snot out of it. I'd love to be around when this all takes place, and engineering mind wants to know.
Kudos to all of the exhaust guys that have posted, this is something that we should have done a long time ago! Some will have the highest power, some will sound the best, some will look the best, but we all make out in the end.
Let's make it happen!
Prior
(Message edited by awprior on February 08, 2006) |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 02:15 am: |
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All for your closed course competition vehicle, of course..... |
Revdoc
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 02:20 am: |
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Al, we spoke on the phone about the spec ops pipe on a xb12s. I now have two pipes, a spec ops 9 pipe - no valve (actually bing shipped out), and an HP titanium race pipe. I also have a couple of different air intakes, K&N in stock box, and Ultimate air intake. I live up in chico, ca, and could make my 04 XB12S available for testing with either or both pipes. Let me know if I could help.
Randy V. |
Adrenaline_junkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 08:48 am: |
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Al, I think your idea about making sound bites of all the pipes tested is an excellent idea. Sound will definitely play a part in my pipe purchase decision. |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 09:27 am: |
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This will be great - pretty much exactly what is needed to answer the "what can should i get" posts for awhile. The proper sound clips rounds out the process perfectly. While its a little late for me as I have already recently installed a pipe, I'd love to know what is out there, and really see/hear whats what. I have only seen one XB in my neck of the woods, so the chances of me ever hearing a Drummer at WOT, much less a Force, are slim - |
Aeholton
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 09:38 am: |
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Al, I like the idea of purchasing an exhaust and free breathing intake from you, at the same time sending in my stock ECM for reprogramming. Is this a service you will be offering, after all the testing? |
Phantom5oh
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 09:49 am: |
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Make up a test matrix. That way recording the data and changes you make will be easier to keep straight. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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Lemme know how I can help. I can get a Force pipe to you. It'll sound the best I promise.
I revved it up in front of a local strip mall the other day and had a 20something little girl (who was VERY mad because I set her alarm off) covering her ears and hopping on her tip-toes . It's very, VERY loud .
That one thing I've noticed about the Force pipe... After 3200RPM... It straight up pisses people off. It evokes anger in otherwise happy people . I LOVE it . They don't stay angry for long... just while it's being way too loud is all, then they give me a thumbs up/smile and go about their business.
(Message edited by M1Combat on February 08, 2006) |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 12:07 pm: |
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Technoresearch is in. They will provide two keys, one for each bike that is run (XB9, XB12), the bike provider will be able to keep the tuning key for their bike's ECM and the Dyno owner will get to keep the SW. So tuning each pipe with the same A/F curve is a given (not that it was in doubt).
M1, I hear ya. But the industry has a problem. A BIG problem. The EPA is pissed off, and it isn't about emissions, it's about noise. Pipes as loud as the Force on the street are going to ruin it for everyone, and it may be too late to stop it. I hear that legislation that will essentially eliminate the "closed course competition" waiver is being investigated, and companies like American Sport Bike will be relegated to selling chrome to hang on your bike  Pissing people off is, well, pissing people off, and some folks are doing something about it.
Al |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
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I have a D&D and Buell Race pipe at the store right now.
I have a broken-in XB12R avilalble, and a broken-in XB9SX.
My service department has been in contact with TechnoResearch about getting set up with the software. Al, having you come and help teach would be great. We need to get in contact with each other and get some things figured out as far as what we want to accomplish and time frames.
I think the American Sport Bike open air box would be a great addition to the testing. |
Skyguy
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 12:21 pm: |
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Al is correct about the EPA being pissed off. Unfortunatly the whole thing was started off by the Harley crowd, and dumb asses on sport bikes...... I really want a Drummer (for power not noise) but am afraid of being to loud. I need to hear one in person.
M1, It is never cool to make people angry by setting off car alarms. It just gives them fuel for their argument. In fact my CHP buddy won't ride with anyone that has a loud pipe. They don't save lives, they •••• people off.
I will never forget leaving the Rock Store one day after everyone warned me about the CHP up the road. I rode the speed limit all the way up the hill only to be pulled over and cited for my Yoshi pipe. Of course this was back in my squid days........
I also got cited at Mt. Palomar once. The officer did not see me speeding. He told me "I heard you and you must have been speeding". He later lied in court but thats another story.
Ride silent, ride fast. |
Buellman39
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 02:48 pm: |
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It all depends where you live. I live in the country, so the only thing I •••• off is are the cows.
 |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 03:05 pm: |
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Speaking of muffler noise . . .
I had a relatively unusual encounter at lunch today. I was just getting ready to head back to work and had my drummer-equipped XB12R idling in the parking lot of the restaurant while I was putting on my gloves. Two LEOs were walking out to their car when one of them motioned for me to come over to him . . .
Him: "Is that the original muffler system?"
Me: "No."
Him: "I didn't think so."
Then he got in his car and left. I thought it was a bit odd to get such a neutral response. I expected an "it's a bit loud" or an "it sounds good" but got neither. |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 03:10 pm: |
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Now this is a total tangent, but I ride with a guy who has an RC51 that is loud, and it is a cool site to follow him down into a low long sweeper between two fields and watch the cattle turn and scatter from the sound. Its like the opening scene from Dallas. My stock pipe won't even raise an eyebrow. I once (don't tell anyone) tried honking my horn to make them take off truckin, but all I got was a wimpy little bleat. All the while my 1200 cc's are bellowing "pfft pfft pfft . . .
But if a force is pissing people off that sounds like it goes over the top. I like attention, but not the negative kind so much - |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 04:06 pm: |
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We just completed our Micron sound test. The AFM Road Racing Standard is 101db at 50 feet. Using my "ULY" in fourth gear at the rev limit we measured 94db at 30 ft and 98db at 20. The Micron will be our back up exhaust system if the new FlowMasters do make good power on the Buell Race Rinehart Header. ... The Micron has a great snaral down low but is not too loud at cruise. ... Terry |
Skyguy
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 04:14 pm: |
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Mr._cuell, Cattle ranchers get real pissed at anything that makes their livestock run. There are a few places we can't fly balloons because of the row it starts up with the ranchers. They are also extremely pro-active in their communities.........
Ride silent, ride fast. |
Doon
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 04:16 pm: |
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Totally not Related to anything, but I hear LEO and I am like, why are we talking about satellites.. and then it hits.. me...
(Message edited by doon on February 08, 2006) |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 04:46 pm: |
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Dang - didn't know that! I am riding outside of Middleburg, VA, and it's strictly small time stuff. Hopefully it wasn't harmful, or at least, I hope we never get caught. (I didn't just say that - someone must be logging in as me)
I have no clue how loud the RC is in db's, but the micron is on just awaiting an ecm, and it sounds like it it is not obscenely loud. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 05:18 pm: |
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"After 3200RPM... It straight up pisses people off."
Sorry to quote myself...
I rarely ride at 3200RPM anywhere near town. I generally shift by 3K unless I'm having too much fun. I rarely have too much fun when there are people around.
The story above about the pissed little girl... It set her alarm off at idle, I revved it because she got snotty about it. She then shut her little mouth and walked into the tanning booth. Works for me.
I think it really just surprises people that it actually gets so loud.
WRT the laws about pipes that are too loud and all that... You still have to be stopped by someone, so elect the right Sheriff. Preferably one that will tell the troops to not stop/ticket people for pipes on bikes. In any case, I live in a pretty small town and it hasn't been a problem so far. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 08:12 pm: |
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I've started a new thread to discuss the Muffler evaluation test here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/174609.html?1139533853 |
Homer
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 06:04 pm: |
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Mr Cuell - looks like were in the same neck of the woods (go figure!) I'm between Leesburg and Middleburg and do a good bit of work in Middleburg. If you're rolling through there look for a very dirty Uly parked in front of the Hidden Horse - that would be me |
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