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Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 05:36 am: | 
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>>>>>dump oil onto racetracks.
That was a sophomoric generalization, comic releif in a discussion that's wandered into the realm of illogical and ill motivated more than it's share of times and in doing so has pretty much been striped of credibility. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:00 am: |
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Imonabuss
When I say "extra displacement" I mean displacement above and beyond what the stock bike has.
As far as I know the Firebolt still displaces 984cc in "600 Supersport" trim.
If that is not correct then I'm wrong about that, but then that makes that bike as irrelevant to the street bike as the Pro Thunder version. Of course you are all free to disagree with this
Here is the rules from F.USA:
SPORTBIKE
600cc inline fours and 800cc twins compete together. Same technical requirements as Superbike, but 112 hp max. and 365 lb min. limits. 600cc maximum four cylinder, 800cc maximum liquid cooled twin cylinder.
Unlimited displacement air cooled twin cylinder
112 hp maximum power limit
365 lb minimum weight limit
DOT tires
$10,000 purse/event
BUELL LIGHTNING SERIES
All Buell sportbikes. 95 hp max. and 390 lb min.
Buell sportbikes
95 hp maximum power limit
390 lb minimum weight limit
DOT tires
$10,000 purse/event
PRO-AM CLASSES
These classes require a Formula USA National or CCS license for participation. Requirement is current ranking as Expert or Amateur (Novice). Applicants must be at least 16 years of age
THUNDERBIKES
A class with an eclectic mix of bikes indexed together. Buells, SV650s, and other production-based singles, twins and triples can all compete together. The Ducati 748 series machines are excluded from Thunderbikes, but encouraged to run Sportbike.
800cc maximum liquid cooled twin, four valve per cylinder, non-desmodromic valves
Unlimited displacement air cooled twin cylinder
1200cc maximum three cylinder, non-fuel injected
Unlimited displacement single cylinder
Slick tires allowed
$3,000 purse/event
Court,
Check the RRW and Cyclenews race archives for the last two years, you'll see plenty of Buell breakdowns and oil dumps. I was there for three of them. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:23 am: |
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>>>I was there for three of them.
Good.
Does that support the inference that the cause was "being a Buell"? If you'll buy into that, I want to toss the "if it's made in Japan, it is inferior" as equally defensable. And by extension that would be the Advil car in the Indianapolis 500 last year was a Buell.
It's been some years since my "Rules of Evidence" class, but I recall the evidence is supposed to support the conclusion, not the conclusion, the evidence.
Both are unsupported logic, in my opinion and temd to place the discussion on the level of the 3am infomercial for the George Forman smoker (which, incidentally, also leaks  )
Court
Sorry, I can't come out and play today. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 10:44 am: |
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Quote:Who cares what the stock HP was. How about we limit rpm or number of valves instead of rwhp. Let's see how much hp those 600's can make when limited to 8K rpm. Answer? Not much.
What would be the point? They would just change the cams to have the same timing a Buell has to generate power. Then they'd change sprockets to get the wheel speed back. So then you'd just have a liquid cooled Buell covered in plastic. Why not just buy a Buell then?
Are some of those SV650s really putting out close to 1000rwhp at the track? I'm asking cuz I never asked anyone. I thought their advantage was being close to 360 lbs and pretty short wheelbase, not power. I know some are actually SV700s too. There's a nice race SV700 in Houston for sale for $5500. Very well prepped and raced once. If I would have known 7 months ago... |
Jssport
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 11:21 am: |
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And if you tie Mike Tyson's hands behind his back and blinfold him, I could have a chance of beating him in the ring. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 11:51 am: |
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Quote:>>>>>dump oil onto racetracks.
That was a sophomoric generalization, comic releif in a discussion that's wandered into the realm of illogical and ill motivated more than it's share of times and in doing so has pretty much been striped of credibility.
Not necessarily. Every CMRA race this season has had rice, pasta and fish and chips spilled on the track. A couple puctured crankcases from con rods were the biggest culprits. The pans also only hold 3 quarts when the bike is upright, not leaned over. Most cases were blown gaskets or disconnected tubing. But I've seen 8 oil spills at Texas World Speedway one day. None were Buells. Of course, there weren't any Buells there at all.![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
Henrik
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:16 pm: |
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High power SV650: the word on the SV racers list is, that you "can" make an SV650 into an SV750 "Superbike" putting out close to 100 HP. They're not terribly reliable without extensive reinforcements and frequent rebuilds. Supposedly you can build a quite reliable 80 - 85 HP SV650 (stock displacement).
Henrik |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:39 pm: |
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What Henrik said.
X1G,
You totally missed my point. My point is that it makes just as much sense to compare two engines based upon displacement as it does on valve actuation, number of cylinders/valves, ratio of bore to stroke, type of cooling system, or rev limit. All are major characteristics that significantly effect the performance of the engine. A lot of people can't seem to see past displacement. That is unfortunate. They have swallowed the marketing pill of the UJM's. The FUSA rules stack the bikes up nicely. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:57 pm: |
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Anybody have the Sport Rider Photo Annuals? They have great coverage of each year of racing from around the world
here are some selected scans:
1999:
2000:
2001:
The 2002 issue will come out in March 2003. I wonder if their "template" for Pro Thunder will change? |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 10:22 pm: |
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Some interesting pictures from the FUSA Daytona event this past October:
This is Eric Wood on his "600 Supersport Spec" Firebolt, prepped by those great guys at Innovative Motorcycle Research/KOSCO HD/Buell
Eric qualified 11th, and finished Last (34th) no explanation given. Curiously his bike is listed as a BUE 1200....
Hmmm, maybe the extra air scoops/ducting is to feed a bigger engine? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 03:10 am: |
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Equal time for Buell enthusiasts...
FUSA Race, Loudon, NH: 1st place by almost 3 seconds... Eric Wood, Buell 1000 |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 07:46 am: |
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FUSA Toronto, CA event
Eric qualified 14th and did not finish, on a BUEL 1200
FUSA at Road America
Looks like they skipped it.
FUSA at POCONO
Eric qualified 9th, finished 11th, but it shows him on a SUZ 600, but he was on the Firebolt, I was there watching him go around the track Sunday morning.
FUSA at Portland Oregon
Looks like they skipped it. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 12:00 pm: |
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Yeah, Blake, I agree too. FUSA does do a good job from what I can see. It's just hard work to have to re-evaluate the classes every year when a new model comes out so they can keep the playing field level. That has got to be the hardest part in keeping it fair at the amateur level. My helmet is off to them. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 12:09 am: |
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OK, I'm new to this discussion, but, Nobody is going to win a sportbike race on a 1000. 600's walk past 1200's like they are broken. I'd put money on Wood's bike being a millinum 1250 (and NH has short straights)though it's still legal in the class as limited by hp not cc's. FUSA is real cool with that thinking, unlike the AMA that is just stupid. Harley will never let the AMA mandate what type of engines they will build, so screw the AMA.
On the oil matter, I only raced 3 Lightning races, Daytona it rained, Pocono, and Summit, were both finished on oily tracks. I believe the 95 hp limit should have been 90hp. A stock motor will produce that with add ons. 95 has to get into internals and once your in there everyone goes for 100+ and torque numbers then restricts the motor down to 95. That's where the problems show up. Buell would have been much better served with the sportbike crowd if they showed that they finished, instead of fast for 7 laps. I don't believe anybody but real deep pockets (as in the R&D dept) will run a Buell in sportbike because of the cost associated with building a 115hp bike that will need a fresh motor every race or 2. By comparison the inline 4's are just too easy.
And yes, CCS and FUSA, Rock. They work real hard on keeping it fair, and safe as possible. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 02:35 pm: |
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Is this you, Sportsman? |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 07:13 pm: |
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You caught me! How have you been Jose'. I met you at Summit. I may not be fast but I'm having a good time and learning every time I go out. Rumor has it that there may be no more Lightning races. Just Thunderbike. I really want to see next years rule book to see what's what. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 07:34 pm: |
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Sportsman, why don't we see you posting in the race section of the KV? Come on man, join in, you'll have friends, I promise. (my peer pressure for the day) |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 09:40 pm: |
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Nice to "meet" you again Doug! Yeah, Summit was great this year, until the Biblical Flood that is.....
Quote:Rumor has it that there may be no more Lightning races. Just Thunderbike
So Brian might be the last Lightning Champ?
WHOA, that would be bigger news than this little flap about the BMW's
But it would make sense for FUSA to do it, combine the Lightning and Thunderbike classes, blend the rules and keep the $10,000 purse. A lot of the Lightning guys were racing in the Thunderbike class also this year so it should not be a big adjustment. Should make for some very interesting grids, a bunch of Buells mingled among SV650's and air cooled Ducati's and the odd Triumph, BMW, just like the Canadian Thunder Series.
For comparison, there were 19 Lightnings at the October Daytona Event.
However, they had 31 bikes for the Thunderbike Class at the October Daytona Event. About a third were the Lightning racers. BTW, an SV650 won, beating Trip Nobles on his Buell......
I read somewhere that the 600 would be the "premiere" class for FUSA next year. So the "Factory Supported" Tilley, Hal's and Kosco Buell Firebolts and the ex pro Thunder 748's could race in this class, and the other Pro Thunder "orphans" would have a place to race in the Thunderbike class, at some of the same tracks that they raced with the AMA.
Now what we need is for the fans to fill up the stands......... |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 09:48 pm: |
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Speaking of all this, FUSA put out a press release about all this today:
F-USA Says It Has Alternative To AMA Pro Thunder |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 10:37 pm: |
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There needs to be a Thunderbike type class with stock displacement rules...and hp limits...*just* like the Canadian Thunder class. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 10:59 pm: |
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That flood was WILD! The pits looked like a lake. Yes, 600 Sportbike is supposed to be the class, if you're looking for a National number and are running a single cylinder dirt tracker. Like the good ol' days in AMA. To be a contender you have to race both types of racing. Cool huh, just expensive for privateers. That's what I was talking about with the 115hp Buells, Sportbike. I'll run whatever class my X1 fits in, but I don't see a super duper XB9R in my near future, $$$, I'm a truck driver and am glad to have a racebike at all. HD of Baltimore is a big help though.
I was real glad to see Brian win the #1, now I hope he gets to put it on his bike. That whole group is good people.
And yes the SV's can go real good. With a little bit of motor and suspension work, they can't be discounted. But they don't normally run with the 600's either.
What's a race section KV? I've got 4 months of bench racing to take care of and I'm already going stir crazy.
One more thing, anybody selling a dual disc setup?(figured I'd post it here too) |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 11:41 pm: |
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Thunderbike can use alot more go fast stuff than Lightning bikes. Bigger bores, more brakes, fairings, nobody said racing is cheap. Buells will be compettitive there, and some of the faster guys (since the bike will go as good as they can make it go) will show up in Sportbike.
Canadian thunder? I've heard of that, but how do they check displacement. SV's and Duc's get pumped up too, and nobody normally challenges that stuff. The dyno has been a good way to keep it simple and fair as it can be, so I can possibly see something there that would keep folks from getting too goofy. It works now at FUSA events so I'm all for it. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 07:41 am: |
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Canadian Thunder Rules and Diares
Must reading.....
I agree with Rick, hopefully the new combined Lightning/Thunderbike class will have hp limits to keep people from having to build 1300cc monsters to be competitive. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 09:02 pm: |
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WERA members discuss the possible move of PRO THUNDER to their series |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 10:03 pm: |
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The Canadian rules seem like Lightning rules that include other brands. That's cool. The difference being stock bores which would help the Buells against the SV's because of their weight. It would also keep the XB's closer to stock to give the tubers a chance. I don't know about BMW's, never seen one race. Anyway it seems a more economical way to race. Truthfully, the bike I rode this year had alot more motor and it didn't help much. With finding out it wasn't motor I was being beaten by made me respect the front runners that much more. There is alot to learn about going fast when you get to go with the big boys. When the bikes are close, you learn alot about everything, even yourself. I wish more Buellers would get into it. CCS really is alot of fun. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 10:12 pm: |
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Sportsman, do you have any items you don't use anymore and want to pawn off? |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 05:42 pm: |
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I found the semi-secret bbs, it took my dumbas awhile but I finally got it. To keep from dragging this topic too off track I'll go there. |
Daves
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 07:09 pm: |
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Cool stuf might be coming, stay tuned!
Ride to the edge!
Dave
HD/Buell Cycle Center
4022 Sergeant Rd
Waterloo Ia 50701
1-800-342-7539 ext 14 |
Daves
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 07:11 pm: |
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See, I'm so excited I can't spell an easy word like stuff!
Ride to the edge!
Dave
HD/Buell Cycle Center
4022 Sergeant Rd
Waterloo Ia 50701
1-800-342-7539 ext 14 |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 11:11 pm: |
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Thets OK dav,as wez kent spelz so gud anywhoz.An yuu wez kinder egzitd. |
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Future of Buell Racing? »
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