| Author | Message | ||
     Steveford |
Does anyone know if I can use Mobil 1 75/90 in the new XBs or is the Harley Formula+ mandatory? 1K service coming up shortly. Thanks Steve Ford | ||
| Bobbyhead |
DO NOT USE HYPOID/GEAR OIL IN ANY BUELL TRANSMISSION ! Which contradicts what some people have recommended here, which just blows my mind. Bobby | ||
| Blake |
Bobby, As posted on the new oil topic on the XBoard, can you explain what creates the nasty sulfur smell in the OEM SportTrans lube? I kinda figured it is the EP additive package and that it includes a sulfur compound. But I truly don't know. I just know that it smells offensive, in a pungent sulfur kind of way. If your stator has copper exposed to the tranny fluid, is it not already toast? Does the Buell primary/transmission contain brass, bronze, or copper components? Please note that the sulfur in most EP gear lubricants should not be "active" and so not corrosive wrt copper at temperatures below 100 degrees C. But maybe it is a moot point since that even without the use of EP additives polyglycol based synthetic tranny lubes provide wear control comparable to conventional EP rated gear lubes. Thus the risk of sulfur induced copper/brass/bronze corrosion is eliminated. I've sent an inquiry to the Mobil-1 folks asking them whether or not their 75W90 tranny lube is corrosive to copper and its alloys. Stay tuned.  | ||
| Bobbyhead |
Blake, instead of asking the Mobil 1 folks, why don't you ask your Buell factory anony's ? Or even Mr.Imonabuss himself ? And I have a fresh quart of Sport-Trans fluid opened up under my nose right now, and it doesn't smell ANYTHING like the nasty pungent smell of Mobil 1 75w90 which I also have a quart of opened. If Hypoid oil use was ok for the primary of XL's/XB's, why wouldn't Harley or Buell just have recommended them as a substitute ? And why is it that EVERY source of info online and hardcopy -advise you NOT to use Hypoid oils in manual transmission gearboxes. And I've even seen the syncros of auto trannies toasted because of Mobil 1 Hypoid use. Just do a net search yourself if you don't believe me ? Bobby | ||
| Blake |
Why wouldn't they recommend a non-OEM product? Do I really need to answer that for you? Harley has never to my knowledge officially offered any non-OEM equivalent recommendation for transmission lubricant. They wouldn't even specify a viscosity or type of fluid, nothing, at least not until just recently when they officially recommended using the Syn-3 in the tranny too. Lubricant is not "hypoid"; oil is not "hypoid." Hypoid refers to a type of gear, like the one shown below.  The internet is full of information. Much of it misleading. The challenge is to sort the truth from the half-truth and fiction. The engineers at Mobil-1 will know better than anyone if their product contains compounds harmful to copper and its alloys. Asking the OEM folks to weigh in on the issue is largely pointless. They are obliged to recommend the OEM product. If an anony chimes in, I'll surely listen. I've found the engineers at Mobil-1 to be of good character, forthright and candid. They certainly wouldn't want to recommend a product for an application that would be problematic, certainly not in writing. | ||
| Xldevil |
Does the Buell primary/transmission contain brass, bronze, or copper components Yes | ||
| Bobbyhead |
Blake, I know what the heck "Hypoid" oil means... and it's aka Gear oil, but to be specific it refers to use with Hypoid gears(like you pictured), which btw are NOT found in a transmission. And speaking of you using your high sulfur content gear oil in the transmission, what do you think would happen when the crankcase seal stops sealing, and your gear oil in the trans starts to get mixed with the motor oil in the crankcase ? We know this happens occasionally when the seals go, although the most common effect is the tranny getting pressurized by the crankcase pressure. But still it can work in reverse and suck trans oil into the crankcase, which if you're any engineer at all, would know that is a very terrible thing(ie-gear oil) to inject as a lubricant into your motor. Bobby | ||
| Brucelee |
I am swapping my M1 gear oil out of my XB today. Due for a change anyway and I am going to refill with Redline 20W-50 motor oil. I see no reason to risk any issues with my trans around the gear oil issue. I do know that Mobil has a specific warning not to use in any transmissions. I see no harm in refraining from the gear oil, which I will continue to use in my car's diff's. | ||
| Blake |
Bobby, That is one GIANT "what if" and frankly I wouldn't be worrying about the engine as much as the transmission. Frankly its very difficult for me to imagine a plausible scenario where gear lubricant would make its way from the tranny to the engine in any significant quantity. Even so, the proposition that a gear lube is hostile to copper and its alloys is up for debate. From the reputable information I am able to find, it seems unlikely that it is. See my related post... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3842&post=625107#POST 625107 in the other KV lube discussion concerning this same issue. | ||
| Sweatmark |
Hate to wade into the deep, dark waters of lube recommendations, but I have a dog in the fight (my XB) that might differ from my other bikes (Beemers) in crankcase and tranny lube requirements. Background: I'm a Mech. Engr, FWIW, and worked as Commercial/Industrial Lubes Sales Engr. for Mobil, '86-'90 (eg. my knowledge of the Mobil product line is not current). Sulfur smell: did some industrial gearbox inspections long ago, steel mill gear boxes you could climb into to examine gear tooth profile and wear patterns, sulfur smell that made your eyes water from the EP (extreme pressure) additive package in Mobilgear industrial gear oils. Hypoid lubes: there were/are oils "built" specifically for hypoid and some worm gear applications, in which sliding motion predominates in the gear tooth force transfer. In some worm gear applications, the means of preventing metallic wear was a combination of high visc. base oil and fatty additives; such lubes did not contain sulfur-based EP additives due to Cu content in the worm gear itself. GL-5 differential lubes have commonly contained the EP components because of decreased concern over yellow metals in automotive rear ends. What I'd like to know about Buell tranny lube requirements is (1) content of Cu-based alloys, and (2) wet clutch lube application criteria. My BMW bikes have automotive-type dry clutches, so tranny lube specs are pretty liberal. If H-D can spec a crankcase oil as sufficient for tranny applications, even if it's a Syn base stock lube, then it would seem the "hard core" EP additives are not required. Note that there's still an anti-wear package in the crankcase oil, and that the spur gears in the older Buell trannys are the easiest type of gear to lubricate. Personally, I like the idea of a common lube for both engine and tranny, if only for simplicity's sake. Mark Oregon | ||
| Stevenknapp |
can you explain what creates the nasty sulfur smell in the OEM SportTrans lube? Not trying to fan any fire, but the original question was about an 06 XB. Only Formula+ is suggested for these bikes. Something about the changes for the lighter clutch? Also wasn't the gearbox somewhat redesigned? There has even been some debate as to if syn3 is acceptable. Don't have the answers, but as an '06 owner I'm also somewhat confused about what is different about the newer bikes and what lubes are acceptable. For now I'm sticking with F+. | ||
| Buellistic |
Run Syn3 in you transmission, "PERIOD" !!! Every Harlet-Davidson Dealer in the WORLD has it ... | ||
| Blake |
Steve, I'm confused too. The manual says to use the Formula+, but the Syn3 itself says it is okay to run in transmission/primary case, but does that apply to the '06 model tranny too? If I recall correctly the transmission is still a constant mesh, non-synchro type, common on all motorcycles, and just the clutch spring system was redesigned along with possibly the material on the clutch plates? I dunno, I'm half guessing half trying to remember what was stated by Buell on the subject. Lafayette seems to be sure of his recommendation though. LaFayette? Can you for sure confirm that the Syn-3 is acceptable for the new lighter clutch pull 2006 Buell transmissions? | ||
| Blake |
Found some semi-official commentary on the issue of Formula+ versus other lubricants for the 2006 models... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=142838&post=536074#PO ST536074 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3842&post=588909#POST 588909 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=32777&post=499893#POS T499893 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=32777&post=499948#POS T499948 Being able to go 10K between transmission/primary lube changes makes considering the Formula+ very worthwhile for me. | ||
| Ikeman |
I'll add my .02 FWIW. I was searching all over the BadWeb for info on this since I was due for my 1000 mile service and I found a lot of conjecture/opinion based on what the manual says or doesn't say. I changed out both the engine and primary oil with Syn3 last week. I didn't notice any clutch slip but it did engage smoother as it gets into the friction zone. I don't know how else to explain it but there was a little bit of an on/off switch feeling spot in the engagement before I changed the fluid. I just had the Uly in yesterday for the rest of the 1000 mile service and I talked to the techs about it. They said they didn't have any information that said Syn3 was not compatible with the '06 primaries. I also mentioned what Blake said above about possible changes to the clutch springs and the plate surfaces. The techs told me that the information they received on the changes indicated that the difference was in the ball and ramp design (I'm assuming to give greater leverage/easier pull) and I think they said the clutch cable and sheath itself were different (lower friction). They said they heard nor read anything about the plates or springs being different. Like I said, the only difference I noticed after the switch was smoother engagement as I get into the friction zone. |
