| Author | Message | ||
     Jim_sb |
Eor, Please, if you don't mind, give us a daily update. I hope they figure it out soon. I still find it odd that the bike was performing admirably but now it's not - with the only difference being the addition of the bags and/or the tire change. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hi Sparky, Yes, an asymmetric setup on the front forks could cause control issues. In fact, my S2 was setup asymmetrically when I bought it (used). Handling improved when it was properly adjusted. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara (Message edited by jim_sb on November 07, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
Jim, that is interesting. A couple of other data points concerning asymetrical front suspension setups: My Cyclone has rebound damping in one fork and compression on the other. Road Racing World and Motorcycle Technology magazine once did a test where they modified a front suspension to have one fork with a double stiff spring and no damping and the other to have no spring and all the damping. The bike turned laps fine and in good time. No instabilities were noted. Some asymetric fork deflection under HARD braking was recorded through a sensitive data acquisition system. My first inclination would be to mount up a new Pirelli Scorpion on the front. Start with what touches the road and work your way up. It's usually the simple stuff and knowing the intensely rigorous testing that Buell subjects upon all new models, I suspect the source of the problem may unfortunately lie outside of their direct control. The extra weight of the bags lies aft of the rear axle thus reducing the weight carried by the front axle. A more lightly loaded front end will more easily be disturbed and be instigated to commence oscillating. You might also try reducing front tire pressure. | ||
| Whodom |
Blake, On advrider, Eor noted that the headshake is considerably worse for his mechanic who is considerably heavier than he is. This seems to counter the idea that the headshake is caused by the bags shifting the CG towards the rear of the bike. | ||
| Blake |
Far from conclusive. Two different riders entirely and one who is intentionally leaving his hands off the grips. I don't think that is anywhere near enough evidence to compel ruling out the tire. | ||
| Dave |
Just some input...I've had my Ulysses (~3300 miles) cruising at 80-85mph 2-up and luggage with no head-shake, wobble, etc. I'm confident Buell will nail this down EOR. I've been in the Buell fold since 1999 and Buell has always exceeded my (demanding) expectations for customer service. I can't say that about all dealerships I've been to, but it sounds like your have a good one. DAve | ||
| Csg_inc |
I tried the decel thru 45-40 with hands off the bars and also got the head shake. Not as bad as EOR but it is there. I have 1800 miles on the bike with side bags empty and 6pack of water bottles in top case and tires set cold to 36f 38r. Dealer did the 1,000 service. I did not try the hands off test before with bags off. Tires still look great. So I will follow this thread and may also return to the dealer based on what develops. | ||
| Eor |
I'm just thinking out loud here.... I wonder if there are any differences between the prototype luggage sets, the initial run of 75[as I understand], and the most recent production run? I can't imagine that this would not have surfaced during the bike's extensive development if it is more than an isolated instance, or that it would be deemed acceptable and not addressed by modifications by the bike's designers if it surfaced. As far as I can tell, none of the owners who received the first sets of luggage reported this phenomenon. Correct? The two that have mentioned experiencing something similar here.... when did you get your luggage...just recently? Could there be a subtle difference in the aerodynamic profile of the most recent production run of luggage? The luggage is easy to change out, if a set from the initial run is available for testing, it might be a variable that could easily be eliminated. If the phenomenon is present only with the bags attached [as the tech reports] that means that the weight of the empty bags [5 pounds or so?] is causing the bike to develop some handling anomalies. I'm far from a physicist or engineer, but I find that hard to believe. I'm going to bet this turns out to be an aerodynamic or tire issue. I'm with Blake ...I hope they throw a different brand tire on the front and see what happens, especially since the tread profile of the D616 doesn't have much of a "real world" history. Like I said....just thinking out loud... | ||
| Snub13 |
ugggg!!!! I recently got my Uly and don't have any input other than to extend my best wishes for good luck and a quick and happy ending. What a drag! | ||
| Sparky |
A google on "front end wobble" reveals several reports of tightening the neck bearings slightly more than spec which helped to rid of wobbles in the 25 - 40 mph range. Your tech did reset the bearing within spec and the situation seemed to improve, but the problem is still there. Also thinking out loud here, maybe he is on to something. Setting the neck bearing preload slightly higher than spec or, at least, set to the upper spec limit might alleviate the problem. I imagine this would act sorta like a steering damper. But I wouldn't want to do this if the bike had ball type neck bearings which are more prone to denting their races than tapered bearings. Does anybody know if the Ulysses, or current Buells for that matter, have ball or tapered neck bearings? | ||
| Snub13 |
Eor, I just read the archives and all I can say is that you are one masterful story teller, rock on! | ||
| Brotherbuell |
Eor, I did get one of the early bags sets and I don't have the problem. However, I don't think that minor production variations would produce a noticeable aerodynamic impact. We would have had to see a very significant change in design to lead to that. I'm still suspicious of the bags damming up enough air under the stock front fender to unload the front suspension. I hope that Lovehammer will chime in here since he lot of high speed miles on his Uly with the same set up that you have. (Message edited by Brotherbuell on November 09, 2005) (Message edited by Brotherbuell on November 09, 2005) | ||
| Jim_sb |
What's the worst case scenario here? We might need to get a steering damper installed? Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Csg_inc |
I do not know if I have a early or late set of bags, but mine came as "a tucked away set" that Court got released to me on 9/27. Just as another data point I park my Buell next to my 2005 BMW LT. So I just took the LT out for a spin and I could not believe it but now it is doing the same head shake thing also at 40 to 45 mph and it has a steering damper installed as a stock item. Is this contagious can my other bikes catch it? I stopped by the dealership but the tech was not in today so the Buell is scheduled to go into the shop to be checked out on sunday as the tech is working that day and the BMW goes into the shop the following friday. | ||
| Dave |
Just a data point about the recent bas. I got my Uly luggage 10-14. (Latest batch from what I understand) Last night when I got off work I tested my Uly w/no top box and some light items in the side luggage. Varying speeds from 0-70-30 mph, hands on/off bars, light/firm grip,...still no head shake. DAve (Message edited by dave on November 10, 2005) | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hello Blake, IIRC the S3 also has the asymmetric forks (one does rebound, the other compression damping). The S2 manuals state that both sides were to be set identically and failure to do so could cause control problems - or something along those lines. IIRC the setting that was different was the rebound setting - one side was set much quicker than the other. All I know is when I put all the fork settings back to spec and rode the bike it improved the handling. I won't say the handling was bad before - but it was better after the change. My Uly bags came in last night. Looks like I'll be the next guinea pig. <g> Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Ghostrider |
Eor, Regarding your head shake, I had a similar issue on my 9R following my 10K service. It had never done anything before. At the 10K service, I got two new tires. When I picked up the bike, I first noticed that the rear brake was not functioning at all. Turns out it wasn't bled properly. When the technician test rode it following that, he asked if I'd ever had headshake issues, which I had not. I test rode the bike and noticed it at certain speeds and when braking. I closely looked at the wheel, and noticed there were no weights. Putting our heads together, we concluded that it was out of balance. But the balancer was out of service, so I had to wait. A day or two later, after rebalancing the wheel several times, the machine kept telling them that it needed no weights, which is weird. It continued with the headshake. They changed the head bearings, but still it persisted. They changed the front tire, again, but still it persisted. Since it occurred under breaking, they took the front rotor apart and cleaned all the little springs and junk that keep it working right, but no luck. The wheel and rotor were both measured and found to be out of tolerance. The factory said the wheel was ok but the rotor wasn't. Replace the rotor. Headshake goes away. 4000 miles later, still no problems. Check your front rotor. It may be warped. | ||
| Blake |
That does make a lot of sense. Thanks Ghostrider. | ||
| Eor |
They are supposed to have checked the front rotor for run out, as well as look for uneven wear of the brake pads per Buell's recommendation. When I checked yesterday, Buell had advised the tech to remove the steering head bearing for inspection. I appreciate their efforts and they do seem to be trying hard to figure it out, but my patience is wearing a bit thin at this point. Frankly, if the dealership would offer me a good trade or if I received an offer to buy from an individual I'd be tempted to bail. I'll have to admit that I was looking at other options yesterday. | ||
| Eor |
Reality Check I guess I woke up with the proverbial bug in my ••• this morning....sure thought I had enough tequila and chorizo last night to kill it, though.  This morning at breakfast a close friend reminded me that it has only been a week and that I should recall from my previous life that engineering solutions don't occur overnight. The same was pointed out to me on ADVrider, but less politely.  Hopefully this will be resolved soon so that I can continue with the ride report, rather than feeling obligated to update daily on every nuance of the troubleshooting efforts and my frustration and impatience. Carry on. | ||
| Sparky |
Hang in there, Eor. When us tuber owners bought our Lightnings, Cyclones and Thunderbolts in the '90's, enough people had such similar problems that the sentiment being passed around here was something like, "Rejoice, you're all Pioneers!" (in the development of Buell's unique sport bikes). Eventually the factory ironed out each issue with recalls, service bulletins or Goodwill exchanges. Personally I've had 2 standup dealers take care of my several bike's problems under warranty and I'm still smiling. You've got a standup dealer AND the factory taking care of you. I'm impressed. Hang in there, man. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hello Eor, Glad you've had a change of heart for the moment. Don't keep us posted if it's adding to your stress. They'll figure it out. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Csg_inc |
Dropped off the bike today so now starts the wait and see process. Will keep you posted. As another data point the strongest shake is at 42.7mph. Also as soon as I got the bike home from purchase I installed a new product for me called "ride-on" tire protection system for motorcycles. | ||
| Eor |
42.7 mph...that's pretty specific. You must have a GPS on the bike. That's where it is strongest on mine...about a needle's width above indicated 40 mph. I hope you told them that some folks at Buell are already working on a similar [if not the same] issue so they can compare notes. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Okay, Here's a thought - have you tried it with the engine turned off? (not sure how this would work - don't try it unless YOU think it is safe). Is it possible that the engine is setting up a strong vibe right at that point that is not damped by the rubber mounts which is causing the shudder? I dunno, just a thought. I did a nice 450 mile ride today after putting my saddlebags on last night (did not mount the top case yet). Everything was peachy, nothing unusual. Bike performed flawlessly. I did numerous (a half dozen or more) hands free decelerations through a wide range of speeds (including the 40's) and did not notice anything. Except my buddies making fun of me for riding so much with my hands off the bars. Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Csg_inc |
EOR Yes I have mounted the BWM Motorrad Navigator 2 Off my BMW to get a accurate estimate of the speed. I also told the dealership of the steps you have tried and that you have the ear of the factory techs. As of late this afternoon my local dealer tech was able to duplicate the condition in my bike so at least it is not just me saying I have a problem. As for any diagnostic testing none has been done on mine yet. I will check and report back on a daily basis. I hope you don't mind me tagging on to your/this thread. If someone believes we should move this discussion to another thread let me know or have one of the admins move it and I will follow. I have not tried the removal of the bags to see if that helps or stops the problem nor did I think to try with the kill switch to eliminate the motor. My focus has been to determine the best speed and get the tech to experience the same. I did try the multiple of the speed to see if it repeated at 85 to 90 but it did not. Matter of fact the bike seems to have a sweet spot at about 75 to 80 that it just loves. | ||
| Eor |
I hope you keep posting your developments here. | ||
| Csg_inc |
Ok today's input. They were unable to replicate the pinging I was getting when the bike is hot from sitting in traffic and then any kind of roll on is attempted. The tech said he rechecked the timing and all is fine. So I guess it will be up to me to see if I can replicate the condition when I get the bike back. As for the head shake the dealership is waiting for a call back from Tech support before proceeding. I was given the chance to take the bike back home and wait for a call from the dealership to reschedule a date for the fix. I said no keep it till it is fixed but please stay on top of the tech support and let them know I want it back asap. If the dealer calls go unreturned by mid day tomorrow I will try Customer Service directly. I am not expecting the fix to be at the snap of my finger but I believe it is reasonable to expect that the dealership and tech support should be able to connect with each other in less than two days at least to start a dialog and establish a diagnostic process. Ok your turn. Jim in SB get that top bag on and try again. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Okay, I'll get to the top case this week. But following up on the engine thought - the rubber donuts do their best work at say 2800 rpm and up. Below that, like at idle, the bike certainly shakes a bit (just like a Buell should). Assuming you're coasting in 5th gear as you're slowing down towards 40mph, your rpm is getting pretty low at that point (2k ish?). That could be enough outside of the rubber donut's effective range to let a little shaking get through to the bars, don't ya' think? Or were you in a different gear? Hmmm... Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Eor |
I'm going to wait a couple of days before calling the dealership about mine, unless I hear from them first. Things seemed to get moving better after the tech was given a specific extension for someone at Buell. He spent allot of time on hold or waiting for a return call initially. |
