| Author | Message | ||
     Electraglider_1997 |
Towards the end of November my Uly will be delivered. How should I break it in? By the Manual method? By the Motoman method? I believe this is a very important question that determines how a motor runs throughout its life. Can I get a summary of what you folks have been doing. | ||
| Mrvvrroomm |
Break it in like it's someone else's. LOL | ||
| Brotherbuell |
I followed as close as I could to the manual. It's impossible on the highway and for short distances I had no choice but to go there. My main goals were to keep in under 3000 RPM and not to lug it for the first 500 miles. Change the oil at 500 and 1000 and that should do it. That's completely manageable. My rationale is that the Buell engineers are putting their money where their mouth is. They have to warranty it and if there is one thing that will make an engineering department miserable it's being blamed for unnecessary warranty costs. | ||
| Brad1445 |
I'm on my fourth XB Buell. The first one I did my manual. It used oil. The last three I drove nice the first few hours than drove the living •••• out of them and none of those used oil. I did 23,000 miles on the Firebolt in 12 months no problems. | ||
| Sarodude |
This is what drives me nuts about the break in stuff... Motoman is basically advocating high cylinder pressures - not necessarily screaming high rpms. Guess what - you can achieve high cylinder pressures without revving your motor past the break-in rpm limits. Heavy hand, short shifts. End of story. Satisfy both requirements. -Saro | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I like your answer Sarodude. Anyway, seems to me that compression ratio is what dictates cylinder pressure or am I missing something. Harley and Buell motors never have very high red-line values to begin with. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hi Saro, IIRC the manual says below 2500 rpm for the first 50 miles AND it says don't lug the engine. That leaves precious little rpm range for anything. Not sure what BMC was thinking there. After 50 miles you can go to 3k rpm but again, don't lug the engine. That leaves some room to do as you suggest. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Whodom |
I think Sarodude has the right idea; I guess it depends on what your definition of "lugging" is. You don't want to cruise it around at 30 MPH in 5th, but otherwise, maximize the throttle opening at the maximum recommended RPM or less. I was always told that periods of hard deceleration were as important as periods of hard acceleration, too. | ||
| Lowflyer |
The whole break-in controversy is a load of crap. These bikes are not racing machines. I broke mine in per the book and my oil usage is minimal. I think it is a reasonably safe and consistent break-in method. The bottom line is that Motoman doesn't warranty the bike and has no stake in the outcome; Buell obviously does. I would bet that my bike would get to and from work just as fast regardless of the break-in method I used. I challenge anyone to buy two Ulys and conduct a double-blind break-in long-term identical usage test and prove me wrong. | ||
| Dr_greg |
Well, my Ulysses was broken in by Jon Flickinger, President and COO of Buell Motorcycle Company. It doesn't seem to use much oil, so I'd recommend you all talk to Jon!  | ||
| Thunderbox |
Hey Lowflyer since it was your idea I challenge you to do just that, buy 2 bikes and prove us wrong. Great challange but I doubt if you will find any takers. By the way what is minimal oil usage in your opinion? My M2 went over 5000 miles on less than 1/4 of a quart of oil. That in my opinion is minimal. I used the motoman method by the by. Each of us gets our bike and does what we think will be in our best interest. Buell also says a lot of things that none of use follows so why make an exception here for this. | ||
| Madduck |
Don't forget that engines decellerating also help the break in. Run it up and down the rpm range in the different gears. I use very little clutch the first 50 miles or so. Helps to live in the country. | ||
| Chadhargis |
The factory reccomendations have NOTHING to do with breaking in the bike or warranty repairs. It has EVERYTHING to do with liability. Can you imagine the lawsuits that a company would get into if they printed in their owners manual, "Use full throttle roll ons during the first 25 miles". ACK! They'd go out of business from the number of squids wadding up their brand new bikes. Then there is the service interval to consider. Would you want to face the marketing guy and tell him, "Ah..yeah, we need to tell our buyers that they should bring the bike back to the dealer 25 miles after they buy it for an oil change then again at 500 miles." They'd be laughed out of the office (and probably fired). Manfacturers HAVE To assume that we (the consumer) doesn't know how to ride aggressively and we haven't a clue as to how to remove and replace a drain plug. For a lot of folks...that's true.  Modern engines have much better lubrication and metallurgy than older ones. You don't break in a 2006 model like you did a 1955 one. Motoman has no stake in anything, either success or failure. What would be his motivation for telling people to break their engines hard? In fact, he's got a ton of pictures showing the difference between the factory break in process and his method. A picture is worth a 1000 words. | ||
| Bosh |
Breaking in an engine is simply getting all the rough edges off from the moving parts and getting the piston rings to seat tightly against the cylinder walls. That is all it is… Period. The only way to do that is friction. The engine doesn’t care or know how fast you are going over the ground. The whole 50 mph thing is a bunch of bull. I think for no other reason than to keep new motorcyclists from crashing their bikes and suing the BMC. All the racing teams I hear about including cars, dragsters and motorcycles break their new motors in by revving the things up. And it doesn’t take very long. Put on a hundred miles or so and change the oil to get all the metal shavings out. High cylinder pressure (lugging your motor) would encourage making the combustion gas blow by the piston rings, so I don’t think you want to go there. My $0.02 | ||
| Thunderbox |
I really don't care if you believe the motoman way or not. I have nothing to gain or lose if you do or if you don't. I do know from 33 years of being a mechanic that some things work and some things don't. I tend to stick with the things that work. 4 years ago I would have thought the motoman way was somewhat controversial but looking back on many many stripped engines I had to agree with him on the ring seal issue. I put my money where my mouth is and I have broken in both of my Buells the motoman way. My new Uly does not have enough miles on it to say without a doubt that this will work but my M2 was a great supporter of the motoman method. I run the police garage in this city and I have my installer go out and put the new cruisers through the motoman breakin method. We have yet to have an engine fail due to any mechanical problem at all. Oil consumption is never an issue with the ring seal on our fleet. If a vehicle has 125000 miles and gets new valve seals the oil consumption goes right back to what it was when new. | ||
| Bosh |
Chad, You type too fast for me  Sorry for the apparent re-peat of opinion! What chad said!!! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Thunderbox, Lay out exactly what your interpretation of the Motoman break-in is on the ULY. Thanks. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hello Chad, As I mentioned in an earlier thread on this topic, I sent a question re the Motoman procedure vs. the BMC procedure to the best Buell/Sportster engine guy I know. He's produced multiple LSR bikes. He replied with a link to an article (which I posted) about Micro-ring welding. Use the factory method (multiple heat cycles, lower rpms, etc.) and you won't risk micro-ring welding. Use the WOT method and it's a possibility. Both techniques have met with success, and perhaps failure. You pay your money, you make your choices. The Motoman way seems like more fun, especially if it doesn't result in Micro-ring welding. The book way is no guarantee either. I'll know soon enough if the book method worked for me or not. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Thunderbox |
The question I have Jim is what changes with a few miles that prevents the micro welding from occuring as soon as you start driving it hard or normal. We don't need to break in the top or bottom side of the rings do we? Remember that motoman does not say race your engine to break it in. I think the best sportser engine guy is saying the same thing. How does he break his engines in? | ||
| Thunderbox |
My interpretation of the motoman break in method is as follows. After engine is properly warmed you take the bike out and you drive it for about 40 miles at varying engine speeds with the emphasis on loading the engine. I use the 2 up on the bike method to keep the load high but not the engine speed. On a Uly you only need run the engine at speeds up to and no more than 5000 rpm. Once bike has reached too fast a speed let off on the gas and let it slow down to say 2500rpm and repeat the cycle for the next 40 or so miles. This will load the rings and ensure a good ring seal. Take the bike home and change the oil and filter if you like. No need to drive the living sh t out of the bike to accomplish this. I think motoman makes this very clear. (Message edited by thunderbox on October 25, 2005) | ||
| Sarodude |
Ya know, for me it kinda comes down to an issue of credibility of the Factory. For years, the factory insisted upon using only the HD dino oil and either implicitly or explicitly contributed to the (mi/dy)sinformation of many. I have a tough time taking their word for it on this kinda stuff. I'm not saying that MotoMan is a genius or has high credibility either. He's just a guy with some rather poor web design skills and a great passion for what he does! Gotta love it! My strongest beliefs are simply that the MotoMan method can be combined with the factory method. They are NOT mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, people can't decouple cylinder pressure / engine load from engine speed. Jim - It'd be cool if you could re-post that info you were referring to! -Saro | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hi Thunderbox, Now I understand your F/A ratios better. All makes sense and agrees with what I've learned. Only difference is your economy F/A ratio is a little different than I'm used to but I'm coming from an aviation background and our 100LL fuel could easily have a different stochiometric ratio than Mogas. As for making best power, we're saying the same thing. I'm quoting EGT degrees F. rich of peak, you're quoting a lower f/a ratio. I express it in terms I use (my airplane has a 6 cylinder engine monitor in the cockpit, tracks EGT / CHT for all 6 cylinders all the time - super fast probes, you can immediately see results of mixutre changes - we change the mixture often during flight) and you express it in terms you use. It's all good. I always think of best power as "go fast" mode. But it is dirtier and increases internal pressures on the engine (this is measurable and documented, but should be intuitive, how can you have more power without more pressure?). When flying I climb out in Max. Power mode, at altitude I switch to Lean Of Peak EGT operations (14.9 stochiometric) because the engine runs cleaner, cooler and more efficiently. I give up probably 5 knots but can easily save 2 or 3gph or more (I have stats somewhere on that). It can really add up on a long flight. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Thunderbox |
Ratios won't be different with your aviation fuel but if you did it by volumm they would certainly be different. It is even a bit different with Premium and Regular gas. Regular is less dense than Premium and therefore the actual ratio by weight stays the same but by volumm it is different. I hope that confuses you even more lol. I remember that these figures originally came off of aviation figures. Airplane engines are good to study because they present different problems and solutions to some of these questions. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Saro, ask and ye shall receive.... <g> Aaron Wilson of Nallin Racing sent me a link to an article written by Ron Dickey of Axtell about ring micro-welding: http://www.axtellsales.com/RonsDocs/Ring%20Seal.pdf Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Rubberdown |
I watched the tech's at the York facility running in HD's fresh off the assembly line. They ran them on rollers and did not seem too concerned about it. Just ran them through the gears a few times. Seemed to run them pretty hard too. There is a big digital gauge on the wall which I believe was mph. They ran them up to 70-80. After a few minutes of this they shut 'em, down and rolled 'em away. | ||
| Branebanger |
my vote is for doing the first 1k to the letter of the manual. if you're doing it fast (like i did) try to work in at least 3 full cooldown/heatup cycles (this was recommended by my dealer). after that, I suggest riding the bike in as many different riding situations as possible for the next 5k. don't do all 5k on the highway, and don't do all 5k on city streets. I'm no expert, but after ~11k miles it seems that the bike doesn't really settle in until after 5k miles. brane | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hi Thunderbox, After re-reading the Axtell PDF, and thinking about it more, it seems that heat is the enemy. Undoubtedly heat is at it's worst in the early stages of break-in. I broke-in a new aircraft engine (air cooled) 20 months ago. Aircraft are somewhat different because you must use full power to safely take-off. Then you climb to a safe altitude (say 5000' msl out here on the coast) and you orbit the airport for 30 - 45 minutes at high power (say 75%). BUT You keep the mixture VERY RICH, on the order of 200 deg. F. ROP. This wastes fuel but aids in cooling the cylinders from within. At take-off the cylinders are immediately VERY hot. Typically in this flight you can SEE when the rings seat by a LARGE and RAPID reduction in CHT's. On the order of say 40 degrees F. per cylinder or more. I was stunned (and pleased) when I saw it happen maybe 15 minutes into the flight. Impossible not to notice. How do we avoid micro-ring welding in an aircraft? Cowl flaps are kept WIDE OPEN at all times. The nose is kept low to keep airspeed HIGH (more cooling air flow) at all times. And of course you keep the fuel EXTRA EXTRA RICH to cool the cylinders from within. I followed the manufacturer's written instructions for break-in and it went well. I see that as being similar to the Motoman method. Except we can't overly richen the mixture on a FI Ulysses. So we have to do something else, right? For the Uly I followed BMC's recommendations. I did use a bit of throttle here and there as suggested by Saro. It's hard not to. <g> The thing is the bike already had 10 miles on it when I bought it. They said it had been test ridden but not demo'd. Whatever. But to some extent what happened in the first 10 miles probably makes as much a difference as anything I've done since then. We'll see. Interesting discussion for sure. I'm spoiled by the instrumentation we have in the aircraft. The good news is I rode the first 30 miles or so across the San Fernando Valley, stoplight to stoplight, accelerating smartly (but at low rpm) through the gears (but not lugging). Then slowing right back down again. It was a warm (but not hot) day. The fan ran on. But you know those cylinders were hot. My fan does not run continuously as some report, but it's too soon to tell. I spent Saturday at the game (saw UCLA play a great game), spent Sunday on an awesome dual sport ride on my DRZ, so haven't ridden the Uly too much in the last week. Break-in should be done soon and I can start letting the bike run a bit. Jim | ||
| Blake |
Lee (Lowflyer), Personal attacks and insulting commentary are not welcome on this site. Please revise your post above accordingly. | ||
| Lowflyer |
Late night. Sorry... The warranty administrator in me sometimes makes me write evil things.  (Message edited by lowflyer on October 26, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
Thanks. But you didn't need to delete the whole post, just the couple of personal comments. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Thanks again though for being so cool about it.  |
