| Author | Message | ||
     Fdl3 |
Where is Reducati in all this discussion? Seems like he only wanted an answer as to who made the bike in the posted photo. Seems like Eeeeek (Vik) has already answered the question correctly. Move along...move along... | ||
| Blake |
Not sure radiation heat transfer is the primary or even significant means of heat transfer for steel motorcycle brakes. Shiny stainless steel just doesn't radiate heat very effectively. Would be interesting to do a quick check on it though. I'll see if I can find the proper constants and present some comparitive heat transfer analysis. Roger, RE the 8-pot caliper for the Buell FX bikes: You're right for some of the tracks. Here's a pic of Michael Barnes' Kosko Buell FX racing machine at Laguna Seca last year...  Note the Brake Caliper? | ||
| Grndskpr |
Note the Brake Caliper? Yep, but theres nothing to say that that was the actual race bike. In other words, it could have been the back up bike Example, Higbies race bike at road america had the twin disk/ radial caliper set up, but due to cost, the back up bike had the stock or 8 piston caliper on it(dont have my pics at work) So again, evey time i have seen the bikes race, theres always been 2 bikes, whos to say the pics you posted wernt the back up bike??????? Plus i cant measure the rotor from a pic, and i doubt you measured the rotor while out in Cali Not looking to pick a fight, but aplication to aplication, i doubt any stock brake set up would be able to withstand the rigors of racing, especially on the big tracks/long races JMHO R | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Not sure radiation heat transfer is the primary or even significant means of heat transfer for steel motorcycle brakes. Shiny stainless steel just doesn't radiate heat very effectively." I'm pleasently surprised that you disagree with Unibear and "Anon", but I'm thinking that disc temperatures are high enough that radiation would be a component of heat transfer (how significant is beyond my grasp without hitting the books). I would think that in every high performance brake disc, all three forms of heat transfer come into play. | ||
| Blake |
"INline 4's try and stay close to original for that stock look" Not sure they have to "try" very hard as their brakes are conventional, not sure what alternative they would have. If they had ZTL brake/wheel technology available to them, you might have a point. With Buell you definitely have a point. The fact that just like the competition, they must augment/improve the stock braking system in order to compete on the Factory pro-racing field is no surprise. I only raise the point because I get the impression that some naysayers here are deriding the ZTL by claiming that it is inadequate on the race track and so must be inferior to conventional dual disk brakes. They further complain that Buell doesn't use the stock brake caliper or disk. In response to those assertions, I offer a 4th place in FX and finishes ahead of some very noteworthy competition. I offer all factory racing machines utilize entirely non-stock front brake systems with larger disks. But the naysayers seem to dismiss those facts. For them it is only pertinent that Buell ran dual disks in Pro-Thunder back in '02/'03. Frankly I just don't get it. I don't get why some folks are so interested in deriding the Buell ZTL wheel/brake. Seems like a personal problem to me. I have a real problem understanding how reducing the front wheel/brake mass by multiple pounds cannot be viewed as anything but an amazing innovation. If instead of Buell it was Honda or Suzuki or probably any other manufacturer that had innovated and entered into production and on the track with the ZTL wheel/brake, do you have any doubt that these same naysayers would be falling all over themselves complimenting it and lauding it for its genius? I get the distinct impression that some of them would be doing just that. What Buell needs is a good simple Trak-II marketing campaign. Remember the old Schick Trak-II adds that showed the first blade grabbing and pulling and the second blade cutting the whisker? LOL. That was pure BS, but it sure was effective. In the case of Buell the add need not be BS. Simply show the difference in road hugging ability of the lighter ZTL wheel/brake versus the significantly heavier conventional wheel/brake. A slow-motion close-up illustrating perfectly the significant advantage of ZTL over conventional systems. If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video must be worth millions. The venue need not even be on a road surface. Put the two front ends in a suspension test machine and actuate the wheel as if it were traversing bumpy terrain. Side by side, with the Buell tire maintaining constant contact with the simulated road surface and the conventional wheel going intermittently airborn. I'd sure like to see Buell release to the public a high-dollar race setup with an even lighter forged wheel and a do-it-all 8-pot caliper and vented disk. | ||
| M1combat |
Of course they do, but I've learned that from researching black body physics, a shiny surface shines both ways (we're talking about the visible heat spectrum). Heat radiation would be a "smaller" portion of the systems cooling ability (on the rotor... note the color and finish of the caliper). The mounting system of the ZTL would seem to have an advantage in transmitting heat from the rotor to the bolts and then to the wheel than the conventional setup. That all means fairly close to nothing though. I think it's a fairly proven fact that the stock ZTL setup tends to overheat and fade (or at least that's what Alan and Vik seem to be able to back up with fact). What matters in a racing application wrt brakes is stopping distance and the systems ability to shed enough heat. The ability to shed heat has apparently been fixed by the larger caliper and slightly thicker rotor. The stopping distance is a function of geometry. NOT outright braking power. The only way to "fix" that would be to adopt the same geometry (or close to it) that everyone else uses. The geometry we have has certain advantages. On some tracks (and certainly a street environment), I believe that those advantages out weight the drawback of having to get on the brakes a tad bit earlier. Again... The men are separated from the boys on the racetrack by their ability to get OUT of corners. Losing a little in the brake zone does not compare to what can be gained coming out of a corner. That can be carried all the way down the straight. Again... You see brakes in the ZTL. I see handling (or more correctly, road holding). | ||
| Blake |
DJ, Careful. I said that I was "not sure", not that I "disagreed." I try to say what I mean; sometimes I am even successful.  In my mind, just imagining the situation, it would be difficult to beat the convection heat transfer in air moving at speed over the brake disk. But I really don't know. I don't know how hot the disk gets or even its emissivity for sure. I do know that short of actually touching my Cyclone's front brake disk I have a difficult time gauging how hot it might be. Meaning I detect little radiative heat emitting from the disk, even when it is very much hot enough to burn. A quick google on "emissivity stainless steel" yields values of 0.11 and 0.14, respectively for polished and machined stainless steel. My brake disk surface appears more polished than machined; A surface with emissivity of 0.11 is not a very efficient emitter of heat. | ||
| Blake |
Roger, I have reliable information that the 8-pot calipers were actually more problematic than helpful, at least in their initial development stages in 2004. I understand that the 8-pot calipers were only used at the higher speed tracks like Elkhart Lake and Road Atlanta, and such. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"In my mind, just imagining the situation, it would be difficult to beat the convection heat transfer in air moving at speed over the brake disk. But I really don't know. I don't know how hot the disk gets or even its emissivity for sure." I'm thinking the temperature is high enough that radiation heat transfer is a factor in brake heat dissipation. "Anon" seems to believe that this very important (whoever he is). As you pointed out earlier (another thread), emissive power increases to the fourth power of the absolute temperature. I know that in NASCAR, brake discs can reach over 1100 F before temperature becomes an issue (not because of fade, but because the disc will actually overheat the tire and melt the rubber). If the temperatures that motorcycle brakes reach are anywhere near this (not sure if they do, though), an emissivity of zero would be necessary for it not to be a factor in heat transfer. Inefficient or not, it should be factor. Does anyone know how high brake temps get on racing motorcycles? | ||
| M1combat |
It's pretty much always a factor. I think the point was that it's a pretty small factor. | ||
| Blake |
<sigh> You are putting words into my mouth. Key are the phrases "not sure" and "primary or significant"... "Not sure radiation heat transfer is the primary or even significant means of heat transfer for steel motorcycle brakes." I am sure that radiative heat shedding is indeed "a factor", just not sure how much of one it is compared to convection. Certainly it's more of a factor on the race track where brake temperatures are pushed to the limit. In rereading what Anony affirmed in Unibear's post though, I submit that it indeed must be significant, especially in racing applications where the disk likely gets near red hot. If it's glowing it is darn sure radiating. Sure is fun jabbering about the intricacies of motorcycle brake behavior. I wonder if the carbon disks that are used in MotoGP are much better emitters. Surface finish would lead me to think so; interesting. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Sure is fun jabbering about the intricacies of motorcycle brake behavior." It's threads like this that keep this place intriguing. | ||
| Fdl3 |
If the discussion doesn't get out of hand. It seems it takes a few pages worth of posts to get to the meat, expecially WRT the ZTL!  | ||
| Grndskpr |
I understand that the 8-pot calipers were only used at the higher speed tracks like Elkhart Lake and Road Atlanta, and such. Very possiable, i can only comment objectivly on what i saw first hand, and what i saw was not stock, i do have to take an oposite view of this however: For them it is only pertinent that Buell ran dual disks in Pro-Thunder back in '02/'03 When i know for a fact that Higgby ran a twin disk setup on 05 at road american, at home coming, so while more people may be running the stock setup, at least some people are running a twin disk setup to this day, again, i can only comment of what i saw at RA, and at that track there was nothing stock about the BUells, all the BUells racing Not sure they have to "try" very hard as their brakes are conventional, not sure what alternative they would have That would be standard or radial mount, 2 different styles of caliper mount origonaly seen at the MOTOGP level, and has worked its way down to the show room, thicker rotors, different materials in the rotors, different size rotors, the list goes on and on, so while those brakes look stock, they may or may not, and i doubt you could get close enuff to find out If instead of Buell it was Honda or Suzuki or probably any other manufacturer that had innovated and entered into production and on the track with the ZTL wheel/brake, do you have any doubt that these same naysayers would be falling all over themselves complimenting it and lauding it for its genius? Disagree, when Honda produced the oval piston NSR 750, it was a marvel of engeniring, it was just as out of the box as Buell has been, and was a joke, so while it was one of the coolest bikes i ever saw, it was a complete waste of money, cool none the less, and nobody thought much different, cool, but engeniering for engeiering sake, nothing more What Buell needs is a good simple Trak-II marketing campaign Nope, they need to win on sunday, so they can sell on monday, simple, just like Suzuki | ||
| Eeeeek |
Plain and simple: The fact that I don't like the Buell ZTL system for racing has nothing to do with it being on a Buell. It is because when I have talked to racers in confidence, they have repeatedly said that the ZTL front does not provide braking as well as twin disc setups. IT's that simple. The ZTL front, in its exisiting incarnations, can't bring a bike down from high speeds to low speeds consistently like the other bikes can. This in not from personal experience, this is what I've gleaned from Buell racers. Think about it. I'm a huge fan of a belt drive for the street and I dig that about Buells; however, noone would contend a belt drive is better for the race track. Vik | ||
| Blake |
"i can only comment objectivly on what i saw first hand," Interesting approach to debate that you have there... pretty much that if you didn't see it with your own eyes, then I nor any others reporting on FX race use of the ZTL brake/wheel should be believed.  "Nope, they need to win on sunday, so they can sell on monday, simple, just like Suzuki" You have a point, but it is deeply flawed. It seems to me to be an unwitting assimilation of the Japan Inc. Kool-Aid, package and all, namely that if something doesn't work best at 160 mph on a race track it couldn't possibly be shown as superior in the real world of street going motorcycles. Stay tuned though, I fully expect significant improvement to Buell's current FX best of 4th place in FX. Your analysis of the Honda oval piston also seems flawed. "Engineering for engineering's sake" you say? The NSR500 racer was developed to meet GP racing rules for a prescribed number of cylinders and displacement while gaining the breathing attributes of a four cylinder engine with 16 valves. I don't think it was a joke. I assume the NSR750 was simply a commercial derivative playing on the NSR500's racing heritage. It simply wasn't as successful as its creators had hoped it would be. Did rules changes have anything to do with that? I dunno. Don't care. Was there any kind of compelling reason for a street bike to have oval pistons? I don't know of any. Did it save weight? Nope. More power? Nope. More reliable? Nope. Less parts? Two less pistons with rings versus an IL4. Standard or radial mount? Pretty sure all the reliracers come standard with radial mount calipers. Not sure what your point is. Are you contending that the top Pro racers use stock brakes? They don't. Ask Jim. That was my point. For someone to poopoo the stock Buell ZTL brake as lacking for all out professional track use is completely hypocritical. No factory backed pro racing machine is using stock brakes. Higbee ran at Road American this year? I don't think so. I repeat... I have a real problem understanding how reducing the front wheel/brake mass by multiple pounds cannot be viewed as anything but an amazing innovation. If instead of Buell it was Honda or Suzuki or probably any other manufacturer that had innovated and entered into production and on the track with the ZTL wheel/brake, do you have any doubt that these same naysayers would be falling all over themselves complimenting it and lauding it for its genius? Reduced unsprung mass, not ounces, but multiple pounds. Anyone who would characterize such innovation as "a joke" or as "engineering for engineering's sake" has lost all credibility with me when it comes to objective analysis of motorcycle technology and innovation. Not saying that is where you fall, but it kinda reads that way. Or maybe you just like arguing with me?  Jim, I have been spying on you. Saw the following post of yours: "When changes come in brakes, whether racing or street, it is likely it will come in materials such as ceramic matrix composites, rather than ZTL style brakes." LOL! Right! Cause apparently there aren't thousands of motorcycles running around with ZTL brakes like there are motorcycles with ceramic matrix composit rotors.   Kook-Aid anyone? It's apparently sushi flavor and very powerful. | ||
| Blake |
ZTL is here. It is in production and on the street and yes even on the track. It carves multiple pounds in unsprung weight from the front wheel/brake assembly. It works extremely well. It improves suspension performance and reduces total vehicle weight. It is a significant innovation in the world of motorcycle technology. Deal with it. | ||
| Grndskpr |
"i can only comment objectivly on what i saw first hand," Interesting approach to debate that you have there You no read good, as usuall, all i was stating is that I meaning me, can not comment on what happened at other tracks, i can speculate, guess or hope, but i can only make comments on what i saw, want to make sure i stay acurate, as has been said in the past namely that if something doesn't work best at 160 mph on a race track it couldn't possibly be shown as superior Not all tracks have a top speed of 160, nor is that the only form of racing, please jump outside the box, the same way Buell has(hint hint look at MUzzy) I assume the NSR750 was simply a commercial derivative playing on the NSR500's racing heritage. We can go back to my comment mentioned before, because not only is that inacurate, its just a complete guess, a wrong one at that, look a little deeper, before you make inacurate comments Higbee ran at Road American this year? I don't think so. Yup, he was running around getting his bike ready, it was an amazing fight to watch him work on a bike with that metal sticking out of his hand, dont belive me, i would be happy to make a bet on that, i could use the extra cash, as a side note Hal, wasnt there either, and i doubt either of the 2 Hoban's were racing, but ther bike was there, those silly games really dont work much any more, just an FYI  Not sure what your point is My point wass that all the race teams are were non stock brakes at RA, one Buell was using twin disks, and all the inline 4's were using what looked like what comes from the factory, but i doubt it was IE, no one at RA used anything stock, plain and simple has lost all credibility with me when it comes to objective analysis of motorcycle technology and innovation. Lets get one thing straight, and try not to find some deep meaning in this, but this board will never be objective, while thats not a bad thing, its never going to be objective, you youself have made that very very clear, Objective, please thats the biggest joke yet Try again R | ||
| Djkaplan |
"I assume the NSR750 was simply a commercial derivative playing on the NSR500's racing heritage. We can go back to my comment mentioned before, because not only is that inacurate, its just a complete guess, a wrong one at that..." Come on G, I think you know he meant NS500 and not NSR500. Please don't make me defend Blake again!! | ||
| Grndskpr |
Come on G, I think you know he meant NS500 and not NSR500. Please don't make me defend Blake again!! What does a 2 stroke 500 gp bike have to do with a 4 stroke 750 street bike?????? Dosent mater if its the early 80's NS or late 80's early 90's NSR??? No defending needed, the NSR750 was a street bike, expensive, but a street bike non the less R | ||
| Eeeeek |
You're at Daytona. You're racing for a win. Which brake system do you want? Vik | ||
| M1combat |
From Daytona... Not quite racing for a win, but it didn't seem that the brakes were holding him back exactly... "“I’m a little disappointed with my position really. I was hoping for a little more. I went out by myself, but I should have hooked up with somebody. I just needed a little bit of a tow through the tri-oval. Anyway, second row isn’t too bad. I believe my race pace will be a little better,” said the Blue Springs Harley-Davidson sponsored Buell rider. Things didn’t get started too well in the race though. “I got distracted on the grid and got a horrible start. I wound up getting pasted by what felt like everybody,” said Sipp. While not everyone passed him, he was only 15th into turn one. That seemed to be the turning point though. He slowing started making his way through the field. A combination of a fast running bike and being strong on the brakes into turn one allowed him to work his way up to 5th with only a couple laps to go." Quoted from www.roadracingworld.com For the record... I'll take the ZTL. Daytona doesn't seem to be exceedingly smooth... (Message edited by M1Combat on October 25, 2005) | ||
| Imonabuss |
ZTL, Vik, ZTL all the way. | ||
| Jima4media |
Speaking of Daytona, I saw some discussion that people seems to think Buell would be there for the 200 next March. At Laguna Seca Erik Buell said no. Has anything changed since then? Can a Buell team change wheels in 10 seconds? If you want to win the Daytona 200 on a FX bike, that is a requirement. | ||
| José_quiñones |
They are supposed to test there this Friday | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Having recently ridden a 2005 Ducati 999 back to back with my Buell, I would suggest that if Higbee ran a dual disk setup at Road America with his injured hand, it may have been because the dual disk setup requires less pressure at the lever for the same braking. This is what I found on the Ducati. As a matter of fact, I found initial braking very touchy on the dual Brembo's compared with the ZTL. The ZTL (I'm running Lyndall Racing carbon kevlar pads) requires significantly more pressure, but seems much more progressive and has plenty of braking ability, just with more effort at the lever. This might lead to more fatigue in a race, but I would imaging an 8-pot caliper would even the difference considerably. That said, the advantages in handling might out-weight any additional pressure required at the lever. The ZTL can certainly lock the front at speed, so it's not a question of braking in my mind, but rather the overall advantages and dis-advantages of a system. I for one, love the progressiveness of the ZTL and a dual Brembo setup would take a lot of getting used to (I would probably have to switch to one finger braking from two). xbolt12 | ||
| Xb12rene |
Honda's NR history is not only about the NR500. More important was the NR750 Endurance bike which looked like the RC30. It run the 24h of Le Mans. The difference to the RC30 was that it had 8 valves per cylinder, that makes it to 32 altogether. The streetbike NR750 was built with the engine of the endurance bike and not the GP bike NR500. It was thought as a limited edition high technology bike, thats why the limited numbers and the price of over $50000. Honda is building and I think tested a V3-ovalpiston GP-bike to replace the RC211. Rene | ||
| Jon |
Vik, You have always struck me as a fair minded person (except when you don't see things my way). And you aren't classified as a Buell hater for having a different view point. I have the view point that the Buells are designed for the street because Erik said so at our Laguna dinner. I really don't give a rip about ceramic disks, etc. When you take any bike to the track you do modifications as needed. The arguement that the ZTL is not up to snuff for the race track seems to be subjective depending on who you ask. Some use it, some don't. And yes, Buell has every right to promote the ZTL. Why shouldn't they? Buell deserves great credit for the engineering genius found in the product. (Message edited by jon on October 26, 2005) | ||
| Eeeeek |
I agree 100% that Buell stepped out of the box and came up with an alternative braking system that works well on the street. Is theis system better than that on my Honda? I've never felt a lack of handling or braking while riding my Honda on the street. I've also found that my Honda seems to like trail braking more than the XBs; but that may have to do with the sensitive suspension setup on the Buell (it was not changed for my weight). The conversation morphed to the contention that ZTL is better than dual brembo setups like the other FX bikes use. This is not supported by the one person in this thread who actually races an XB. Vik | ||
| Blake |
Who said it is better. I only saw people claiming it was inferior. Roger, I'm totally ignorant about the Honda oval cylinder bikes and I have a difficult time following your meanings. So let's save the discussion for sometime over a beer and burger. The objectivity of this site in general is not the issue. The objectivity of technical analysis relating to the subject at hand is the issue. I'll put the integrity of my objectivity up against anyone's when it comes to technical analysis. I've made numerous technically based statements. Which do you find lack objectivity or accuracy? Engineering analysis is what I do for a living. There is no room for personal views in structural/mechanical analysis. It is merely physics applied to the world in which we live and the stuff we build/use/enjoy. Refusing to recognize the very real and significant benefits of carving multiple pounds of unsprung mass from the front wheel/brake system of a motorcycle is not objective. It is ignorant. Likewise refusing to recognize that dual 320mm disks with 4-pot calipers provide more braking power than the Buell single 375mm disk with 6-pot caliper would also not be objective. To take the current state of the Buell ZTL wheel/brake system and extrapolate from that its future potential or lack thereof in a racing application is not objective. It is ignorant in that such short sighted analysis ignores any understanding of how racing components evolve through testing and development over time. To state anecdotally that one has never felt a lack of handling on a brand X bike with conventional dual disk and heavy front wheel is not objective comparitive analysis. It is simply recognizing that a situation where better road holding through better suspension response has not yet presented itself. The objective analysis recognizes that at some point when pushing the suspension performance envelope over an uneven surface, a front suspension having multiple pounds less unsprung mass will absolutely outperform other more massive systems. Period. Likewise, an objective analysis will recognize that as long as the braking performance exceeds that which is required for optimum stopping performance and to avoid excessive fade, additional braking power provides possible advantages only in feel/bite and lever effort. That is my objective analysis of the issue. I will be very surprised if the state of and performance provided by racing versions of the Buell ZTL brake/wheel does not improve significantly over the coming years. I can envision a forged magnesium ZTL wheel with a lightweight vented disk and 8-pot caliper and special air ducting to keep it all adequately cooled. Some folks seem to envision that the current state of the Buell ZTL is all there is and all there ever will be for racing applications. Seems pretty ignorant to me. About as ignorant as I am wrt the oval piston Hondas. |
