| Author | Message | ||
     Choptop |
Quite true, nor do I care for the disk mounting system on the Guzi either. Looks like they tried to emulate the ZTL in looking light but didn't want to go all the way? Could a patent have a bit to do with that +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ check to see who had the perimeter brake first, Buell or Braking. report back. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Chop you certainly have an interesting way of expressing yourself.  I'm guessing that you didn't read my post above about me following perimeter brakes sence Chevy tried it about twenty years ago? I've wanted someone to make a good automotive or M/C production perimeter disk system ever sence. I've seen a few one-off bikes with, and at least one aftermarket m/c company produceing perimeter brakes over the years. To the best I know Buell is the last to field a perimeter brake. But they are the first I've seen to produce such a clean,simple,logical,floating disk design. And the point you wish to make is? | ||
| Blake |
"check to see who had the perimeter brake first, Buell or Braking. Report back." Irrelevant. Check to see who owns the patent on the ZTL wheel/brake system concept. Report back.  Hint: (Buell) "I never said the Ghezzi wheel was lighter than the ZTL wheel. I said it was lighter than a standard wheel. " Interesting that you so off-handedly accept without a shred of evidence that the Ghezzi wheel is lighter than a typical conventional sportbike wheel, but you demand proof when it comes to the Buell ZTL wheel.  Dude, you be owned.  You are clear on the whole "air is lighter than aluminum" concept are you not? Frankly I don't see how the Ghezzi wheel is any lighter than a conventional sportbike wheel. What it lost from the hub it appears to have gained in bosses on the rim. And certainly those two honkin big disks are no featherlight chunks of steel. Nope, what you might likely have there in that Ghezzi dual perimeter disk brake/wheel is a significantly heavier front wheel/brake assembly. In 2004 at VIR, Mike Cicotto finished 4th behind Duhamel, Haskovek, and Chandler. You don't finish that high up in an AMA Pro Racing National event if your brakes are not working well. Or if they weren't, then what does that say about the 20+ entries that finished behind Mike? At Laguna Seca in 2004 Mike Cicotto beat Larry Peagram, Pascal Picotte, Danny Eslick, Mark Junge and Heath Small among others. You don't do that at Laguna Seca on a bike with inferior brakes. So I ask again Alan, what concerning the ZTL front brake/wheel system do you see that Buell did do? Did it or did it not reduce the unsprung weight of the front wheel/brake system by multiple pounds? Does that or does that not improve grip over uneven surfaces? What do you say Alan? Fact or fudge? | ||
| Dbird29 |
Blake, You chased him away. You just have to win don't you? (oh wait this isn't the criticize Blake thread)  http://www.sacborg.com/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=013648 | ||
| Millx1 |
Since I'm not really up to speed on the ZTL brake system, I'm wondering what the difference is between the Buell ZTL and the rim mount style brake? Also, other than what appears to be different mounting points and maybe a slightly more inboard Buell rotor, is there an actual difference in the braking performance? | ||
| Trojan |
Buell FX and Thunderbike racers did ride both and chose the ZTL over duals. Go watch real racers on Buells with ZTL systems and you will see. Anyone can claim that the brakes aren't good enough. The bullshit stops when the stop watch comes out. Now those are the facts Because the factory told them that is what they had to use. We raced our XB with the ZTL setup and yes it does have good braking power, but not consistantly over a race distance. We would literally run out of brakes in around 3-4 laps of the average British circuit. The brake would overheat and completely destroy a set of pads in less than one race! We also tried a spacial 'factory' front disc that was 1mm thicker than stock, along with their pads. This proved little better than the stock setup either. Coupled with the problems experienced with the bike wanting to run on under hard braking rather than turn in, we decided to change to twin Brembo radial calipers and a Dymag front wheel. This setup was way better in every respect (except probably unsprung weight, although the difference wasn't that big) and was the biggest single improvement that we made to our race bike, period. Braking power was not only better but more consistant, and the handling of the bike was better than anything else out there by a long way. I know for a fact that some of the top FX Buell teams wanted to use the same system because they spoke to me about it, but were 'unable' to do so at that time.   | ||
| Unibear12r |
Actually I'll give Chop some help here. Along the lines of the truth as somewhere in between. Actually he's proof of my you're "seeing what you want to see". He's attacking the brake for lack of going deep in the corner, lack of max power. Incorrect. He's compairing two (or more) different BIKES. You know,the different mass, longer wheelbase to create greater leverage on the front wheel thing. He SHOULD be able to go deeper with some other bikes. We see what we want to see in things.  | ||
| Unibear12r |
Trojan, still a problem with one caliper trying to do the work of two. Too much work for one set of pads of todays materials. Two sets of pads/calipers and one disk is likely a compromise that would make everybody happy at those energy levels. Actualy not a problem with the ZTL concept, still just seeing what we want to see. | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan, still a problem with one caliper trying to do the work of two No we had two discs & two 4 piston radial calipers. | ||
| Choptop |
Please start bashing Trojan and telling him he's wrong, that ya'll know better. Tell him how the concept is better than what he knows from practice. Tell him he is obviously dong something wrong. Tell him he is a Buell Hater. Now you have someone telling you that tha ran the ZTL and then swithced and got better braking power. Tell him he's wrong. You've already started to. Blake didnt chase me away. its the general stupidity here that has. Ya'll will defend your preconvcieved notions as fact to the death, even in the face of contrdictory facts and direct expereince. There is nothing to contribute, ya'll know it all. so why bother. | ||
| 2hogs |
Can I throw my 0.02 in here? OK I will. All I care about is in 1500 miles my single ZTL brake on my XB12X has done the only thing I want it to do -- stop me on my production bike on public roads. I've grabbed a bit too much front brake on said XB12X, and was quite surprised. That said the Buell brake is more than up to the task of stopping me on the bike, I bet this would be true even if I took it to the track for a day. It wouldn't be lack of braking keeping me from diving deep into corners, it would be my own sense of self-perservation :-) Cheers | ||
| M1combat |
I think Unibear was trying to make the point that adding a second caliper to the ZTL setup would help with fade. I'm willing to accept the fact that the street version of the ZTL can have disadvantages on a racetrack that's smooth. I believe those disadvantages mostly disappear when you add the race caliper. It's very apparent that the brakes used on the FX bikes are up to the task. They'll only get better. | ||
| Choptop |
huh... yer doing it too... The FX bikes are fine, cept for the teams wanting something different, and the race capiler still not being up to the task. like Trojan said. amazing. | ||
| Olinxb12r |
So, about that bike that was in the original post. It was pretty cool. I bet it is fun to ride. Oh wait, did I just walk into the middle of an arguement? Chill out guys. Everything on our Buells is not the biggest, badest and bestest no matter how much we want it to be. Our bikes are very advanced from a design stand point, but that does not always translate to racing performance. Buell are street bikes not race replicas. Things that are good for the street do not always work as well under track conditions. Why do some people get so defensive about stuff? I'm sure Erik would look at the track results and be a logical enough person to say that perhaps the ZTL single rotor isn't the best for the track. I'm sure he would try to put a rotor on the other side and go from there. | ||
| Fdl3 |
How would adding a second caliper help reduce brake fade? | ||
| Reepicheep |
So Chop, did you experience a ZTL single disk setup fading under race conditions? So, putting on a dynamag front (which I am assuming is one of those fantastically expensive and super light racing wheels) kept the handling benefits of the stock ZTL configuration but with conventional rotor setups. If that is true, Allan, then does that not prove our point about lighter unsprung mass in a front wheel being a significant benefit? I really appreciate that Trojan described two specific issues... overheating resulting in premature wear of pads, and the fact that the bike wants to run straight under hard braking. When I asked you for specifics several pages back in this thread, what I heard you say was "shut up, you haven't raced so you are not in a position to participate in the discussion, the brakes just feel wrong". But that is neither here nor there, I am still interested in exploring the physics. The overheating issue is obvious, you have much less pad and fewer pistons. Even the new race caliper ends up at 8 pistons. Isn't that still 4 pistons short of what a dual rotor superbike would end up with? What about the overall pad area? The same ratio? The "going straight" issue is more interesting. I wonder what is causing that effect? The ZTL setup translates the braking forces to the same place on the forks, so I don't think they are deflecting under braking and changing the wheelbase any differently. It's asymmetrical, so perhaps one fork is deflecting slightly, but I don't think that explains it. Could be some sort of odd gyroscopic factor for the mass further out on the rim, but you would think that would cause handling issues not just related to braking. The spokes on a traditional front wheel don't deflect do they? That could shorten wheelbase slightly, but it seems like it would not be enough to have an perceptible effect on handling. Or maybe it's the other way around, do the lighter spokes on the ZTL setup deflect under hard braking? The braking forces go through the rim, but they still go through the axle. This EE is over his head here, some ME will have to work through the vector diagram. Or are we not comparing factory wheels to factory wheels? Are we comparing factory Buell wheels (affordable) to aftermarket race wheels (cost more then many street bikes). Is this the case of "stock race replica wheels are completely useless, stock Buell wheel is close but not quite there, race wheels required". The discussion was about the benefits of the ZTL should be independent of materials, as any material change you make to a standard brake configuration would yield the same benefit to a ZTL configuration. Wonder what a 12 piston caliper on a ZTL rotor attached to an exotic material wheel would do in a race application? Thanks for the insight Trojan, interesting stuff! (Message edited by reepicheep on October 21, 2005) | ||
| Millx1 |
Since I'm not really up to speed on the ZTL brake system, I'm wondering what the difference is between the Buell ZTL and the rim mount style brake on the Guzzi? Also, other than what appears to be different mounting points and maybe a slightly more inboard Buell rotor, is there an actual difference in the braking performance, or was it strickly an effort to reduce unsprung weight? If I were to graft an XB front end to my X1 would I be able to notice a difference in handling. | ||
| M1combat |
"Buell are street bikes not race replicas." That's what I said  . "The FX bikes are fine, cept for the teams wanting something different, and the race capiler still not being up to the task. like Trojan said. " Actually, he said they used a 1mm thicker rotor and THAT didn't help. Did you try using the race caliper Matt? I remember that the FX teams switched to a conventional setup and then Buell told them to switch back. Buell then developed a better caliper and so far I've never heard that the FX bikes suffer from braking problems with the new setup. It seems to work just fine now, and the Buells still handle better than the other FX bikes (based off of mid-corner trap speeds). I'm not refuting what Matt has said at all. It's just that in that post he didn't say that he had used the latest and greatest setup that the FX bikes are using. I have said many times that I have heard and believe that the stock ZTL setup has fade issues at race pace. I have not heard that the ZTL setup with the upgraded caliper has fade issues at race pace. I also haven't found any evidence of that from watching FX teams with those parts. You keep asking "how well did the FX Buells do in FX?". That's a valid question for the most part, but keep in mind that they did VERY well against teams that have a comparable level of factory support and funding (read - Not a lot). If Erik puts another rotor on the other side, he's deleting the main advantage in the ZTL setup. American racetracks are typically more bumpy than the European tracks that are used at the upper levels. I still believe that it's a fact that you will not find a better brake setup for the street. Not because they'll stop you quicker, but because they'll stop you as quick as you need and they offer other benefits that far outweigh the ability to go 3' deeper into the brake zone. | ||
| M1combat |
"Since I'm not really up to speed on the ZTL brake system, I'm wondering what the difference is between the Buell ZTL and the rim mount style brake on the Guzzi?" The mounting system is the main difference in the brake setup itself. The ZTL setup is a floating rotor. This allows the rotor to flex with the caliper and helps with the braking torque generated given the same force applied by the pads. As far as the other benefits, you'll notice that the wheel has both VERY light spokes and a hollow hub. It also has only one caliper and rotor as opposed to two, but of course the rotor is a good deal larger than the rotors in a dual rotor setup. | ||
| Imonabuss |
OK, it's real simple. Trojan sells very expensive dual disc setups. Of course they would run them and tell you they are better. But I assure you that lot's faster riders than their guy are riding FX and Thunderbike bikes with ZTLs. And I don't believe the factory has some magical power to force these guys. In fact I've talked to the FX riders and they said the ZTL stops as well as radial dual Brembos (which they did test), and turns much better. | ||
| Imonabuss |
And reviewing Trojan's other parts, they are also the ones that say that the stock Buell fixed belt pulley puts way too much load on the belt system, and that you should buy their spring-loaded system. I believe that buell did it right, and wouldn't have done it "wrong". C'mon let's face it, Trojan are in the aftermarket business and want to sell stuff, but that doesn't mean it's better. | ||
| M1combat |
Ummm... Not to rain on your parade exactly but... Matt from Trojan has consistently proved himself IMO to be an honorable guy and businessman. If he feels that the dual setup is better than a stock ZTL or a ZTL with a 1mm thicker rotor, I believe that it is at LEAST for him. I am still interested in knowing if he has tested the race caliper or not. I don't believe I have even found a picture of their race bike with the FX brake setup. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Also, about the spring loaded tensioner... I believe that I've heard Matt say that the stock piece works well until you raise the rear ride height, THEN the tension is too much. That makes sense to me. WRT the factory having some "magical" power to force the FX teams to use the ZTL... Yeah, they pretty much do. It's called factory support. Having teams race with your parts in order to develop them is a good thing. Having the factory pay for the development of parts you are using is also a good thing. It's a win/win situation from most points of view. | ||
| Fdl3 |
I was under the impression that dual rotors were used anytime there is a brake fading issue (and not necessarily an issue with the lack of braking power). Is this not a valid? | ||
| Reepicheep |
More mass can absorb more heat. So more massive braking systems will get less hot. The heat comes from stopping, and the process of stopping is simply converting the kinetic energy (speed and weight) of the motorcycle into heat energy in the braking system (rotor and caliper). So two rotors and two calipers will get less hot then one rotor and one caliper, provided the sizes of everythign is the same. Actual cooling starts to get more complicated. You have the temperature differential between the place where the heat is and where it is going, that controls how fast heat moves, and you have the amount of surface area radiating heat, that's a factor, and you have the thermal barriers like paint or oxidation (you have a coat on) that also has an effect. So a one pound aluminum cube (little surface area) would not dissipate heat very quickly. That same pound of aluminum made into a sphere with a gazillion little fins, would cool down VERY quickly. I believe brake fad actually describes a couple different effects. First, if there is any water in the brake fluid (and there almost always is), when the fluid gets above waters boiling point, it becomes steam. Water is not compressable, but steam is, so when you hit the brake lever it feels all spongy and may not generate enough force to actually stop anything. It is also possible to get the brakes so hot the actual brake fluid boils, but I suspect by the time you get to this point, you have other problems to worry about. As materials (rotor and brake pads) get hot, the act differently (less grippy maybe?) and can wear much faster. | ||
| Fdl3 |
Reepicheep: Very well stated and explained. So heat is the enemy and ultimate cause for brake fade. If one is combating brake fade (like Trojan mentioned above), then two rotors are better than one rotor, right? | ||
| Matty |
M1, There Ain't nobody getting the 8 piston front caliper except the 2 bikes that have them. Last time I talked to Duga, he said there's only 3 of them and that's it. Perhaps we may see them being supplied to racers next year, perhaps not. Time will tell. Most of us have had great luck with the stock rotor and the newer race pads from EBC. (of course, we're half-speed compared to the factory bikes, but don't tell anyone!) (Message edited by matty on October 21, 2005) | ||
| Gowindward |
 My thoughts on the ZTL is that with the rotor closer to the tire/contact patch then the moment arms is shorter and the brake takes less pressure to over come the torgue force being put on the caliper. This will produce less heat. With a convention rotor the moment arm is longer so the torgue load is higher on the caliper and the brake has to apply great pressure to over come the load, which will produce more heat. Overall the ZTL has to use lower braking pressures to stop the same bike. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"This will produce less heat." I don't think this is correct. You left out a variable - the ZTL rotor has a larger diameter so the speed at the brake pads is higher. Less pressure, but higher speed. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Nice illustration, though! | ||
| Gowindward |
True, but then you would also have to take into account the larger surface area of the rotor to dissipate heat. It doesn’t melt down so it must work??? |
