| Author | Message | ||
     Racerx |
I disagree. Getting 100+ RWHP is nothing special? Rocket? You want to chime in here? Thats what I am taliking about Blake I never said getting 100 RWHP is nothin special i said that A stock head can handle a 100 and that, that is nothing special that his heads can stand 110 RWHP I know a Ultra Classic with 108RWHP with the stock SE heads from Harley that have no fancy maganies or other Nalinized stuff done to it. So like i said Blake done, keep on keepin on you are master of the Bad web And your right my fault 400$ what was I thinking hell i got the head job done for $60 and two casses of bear picked up close to 20 ponies on the dyno ah well. | ||
| Blake |
RacerX, "I never said getting 100 RWHP is nothin special i said that A stock head can handle a 100 and that, that is nothing special..." You do have a point. Of course if you slapped on a turbo or nitrous, the stock heads would "support" 100+ RWHP. Or, maybe if you were able to hand pick the blanks and assemble the heads yourself along with other critical hand picked components while using all the tricks of the trade, high compression pistons, specially prepared rods and cylinders, you might, if you were really smart and/or really lucky coax close to 100 RWHP out of a stock lightning cammed engine with performance intake and exhaust (Force for instance). Otherwise, you would be fortunate to break 90 RWHP even with high CR pistons plus the most aggressive cams that stock heads would support. I don't recall ever seeing dyno results of a bike with stock heads making over 100 RWHP. Maybe you can show me some? "I know a Ultra Classic with 108RWHP with the stock SE heads from Harley" I know a guy who turned water into wine. Miracles can happen. That doesn't make them "nothing special." "i got the head job done for $60 and two casses of bear picked up close to 20 ponies on the dyno" So now you are claiming that the head work alone netted you 18 RWHP?  My well tuned stock (Bartels intake with K&N and jetted carb only, stock muffler) '00 M2 put out 80 RWHP. I would thus contend that your heads netted you closer to 8 RWHP. Had you bothered to tune it, jet it, and add the intake and test it prior to the headwork, your result would likely have been similar. Heck, my stock (race intake, Bartels muffler, S1W header, jetted carb) '97 M2 made 76 RWHP. It's pretty obvious your baseline of 69.9 RWHP was for a poorly tuned bike. As for the bronze manganese guides and much of the other "Nallinized stuff", they significantly improve the reliability/integrity of the valve train and are not necessarily all power enhancing items, at least not until the point where stock guides or retainers have failed and trashed your engine. | ||
| Buelliedan |
My stock 99 S3 made 84 rwp. Kerry's(remember old baldy)99 S3 with Nallins stage 2 heads and a Kooks exhaust made 96 rwp. | ||
| Rocketman |
Ok I'll chime in now I'm invited. Anyway I've had a good day and I kinda feel in the mood  then I'm off for a beer and maybe a dance. Blake you've behaved like a complete arse but I suppose it's your house. As for 100 RWHP, it's fairly easy. The biggest suprise to me was Aaron getting into the 90's on moderately tuned Lightning's. That was some time back, and I wish I could have shipped my Lightning to Aaron and his dyno. Remember he rode mine (Buell) at Croix last year, and he reckoned there was maybe 110 horses in it. Thing is, he knows, and that's why it's important to get a dyno guy who, like Aaron, can use a dyno correctly, and sadly I don't know any over my side of the pond. I'm not been controvertial either but to me chasing numbers is all well and good, and I do it myself, but flowed heads or not, there's still a lot to be said about the 'seat of the pants' feel of a motorcycle. Dyno's weren't around years back and we did great without them, but today we are living in fortunate times so we can spoil ourselves with dyno's, which is great too, but in my book the dynoed bike isn't necessarily the best. Think about it. How do you really know what the non-dynoed bike is doing ? Just because you didn't tune it on a dyno doesn't mean it isn't optimally tuned. Frank Sheene tuned carbs for loads of racers in the 50's, 60's and 70's, using his ear. A common practice back then, but Frank had a bit more of a carb tuning gift than others. Think about it. I think the same applies to headwork too. Stage 1 , 2 , 3 or More is determined by who you use. I haven't a clue what my Stage is, seriously, I was never told, but they work well enough even though they may be poor compared to someone elses craftwork. Headwork can be any price too. Money defines nothing in head tuning, and everything too, depends who you are. Imagine I was Pammy's lover ! Maybe she could get Wes to flow me some heads for free. top tune for no money see. Headwork may well be a science but it's a 'black art' also. I'd wager there's a guy or gal out there that could flow a head on their lap, that would flow better than a head flowed on a bench, but heck what do I know. Me, I believe in genius and geniuses have been around far longer than any machines. Blake you need to place yourself in the 'Hall of Shame' and I'd say you owe the Racer an appology. C'mon dude, play fair, you're a nice guy Rocket | ||
| Aaron |
"Remember he rode mine (Buell) at Croix last year, and he reckoned there was maybe 110 horses in it" Whoa, back up the boat, that's not what I said. I said that if you got 100.5hp in what was it, 3 or 4 dyno pulls, then more than likely, there's more in there. A handful of dyno pulls with no tuning means nothing. You can't get into the heat soak cycle in that many pulls for one thing. And you gots to tune the motor, that's the whole purpose of the instrument. Could we have got to 110hp? How the hell would I know? But I can say with some certainty we coulda got more, if all you did was a handful of pulls, no tuning, and got 100.5. Not that I really want to get into this debate, but Blake has a point. You gotta compare apples to apples when you're talking price. The terminology used was misleading. Rocket made a good point when he said head work is a black art. There are different ways to get to the same place. And it's not a static thing, either, the really good shops are continually developing and improving and always pushing the power numbers higher. A couple years ago, a 112hp stock displacement dyno sheet was greeted with great skepticism. Now we see a couple 115hp sheets and even a 119hp sheet and nobody challenges it (which surprised me a little). The thing is, though, that not all the shops are moving forward, many are sitting on the past and more or less view it as the ultimate capability. I look around and see a couple of very well known shops that I have repeatedly seen mediocre results from. Not enough R&D going on there, me thinks, they're sitting on where they were 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago. I dunno, I guess the way I look at it, head work is critical, it'll make or break the success of the project, and the range of people porting heads out there runs from exceptionally good to exceptionally bad (witness Brian H's experience). Personally, I want to see credible results before I trust my heads to someone, I want to know for sure that this person is out there on the leading edge. It's just too important to take a chance with and there are too many people who think they're head porters but they're not. Not saying that's true about this particular guy, I've never tuned his stuff so I wouldn't know. But man, there are folks we know are good at it and we can see their results climbing year after year. Why take a chance? To try to save a couple hundred bucks? Doesn't seem like the right place to save to me. Just my .02, do what works for you. | ||
| Fssnoc2501 |
Rocket, Well stated, I guess it's that Queen's English. This all sounds like a pissing contest over one phrase "Stage 3" interesting that such minor things can create such a fever. I'm a fan of Richard but of course he did the work on my head on the LSR bike, and I'm very pleased with his work. RacerX, Some of us do really want to twist our bikes greater than 7K. I personally have had mine set up to max out at 8K. It's wonderful that you have found someone that can do work that you are happy with for that price. Blake, Come on man, un-cinch the saddle and remove the burr. I've ridden mules with less kick than you got today. Lifes short, ride more. Ray | ||
| Rocketman |
Soz Aaron, I thought you'd mentioned 110 as a 'maybe', but maybe you were agreeing with my 'maybe', if you see what I mean. How the hell would you know ? C'mon my friend, me thinks you far to modest. Now who's been controvertial ? LOL. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
The only headwork I've ever heard of referred to as "Stage-"anything comes from Nallin Racing. That's not saying much, I'm not extensively familiar with the nomenclature used by other reputable head porting shops. However, I think most who frequent the Dyno Charts topic of this BBS would agree that a reference to any "Stage-x" headwork without any other specific definition would be taken to mean the Nallin Racing version of "Stage-x" headwork. That's been the standard we've all become familiar with. Isn't it? Look at all the dyno charts. So, when someone offers that he knows a guy "who does a Stage 3 head job for $400.00 including valves", well I feel the need to understand the facts and set the record straight. I may be an ass; if what you call direct and frank discussion is being an ass, I'm guilty. I dont' sugar coat the facts or my reasoning. When in return I get nothing but rhetoric mingled with little fact and half truths dolled out in bits and pieces, well I think my frustration is somewhat justified. It seems I'm the one doing all the apologizing. For what I'm not sure. If you can't take the heat...  RacerX, That Hawaiian Punch funny-car your buddy worked the heads for... did it ever win a drag meet? How'd it place in the series? Did it set any records? Did he get free Hawaiian Punch?  | ||
| Dueller |
Well I was gonna respond to your comments directed at me, Blake... but I'm gonna go to the corner with RacerX and have a beer...maybe one of those down "draughts" Rocket was talking about. Blake, old buddy, I truly enjoy your presence on this Board. You are an amazing resource on all things Buell (wasn't it you who even knew the print font for the Buell logo?). And you have enlightened me on technical matters in succinct and understandle posts that were previously fuzzy to a non-engineer type like myself (discussion of the relationship between torque and horsepower comes to mind). For this I am truly grateful to have made your cyber acquaintence (seriously). But please let's keep this in perspective....they're just motorcycles--damned fun ones--but just motorcycles. JUDGES, may I have the scorecards, please? Laaaaadies and Gentlemennnn......we have a split decision. Judge No. 1 scores it 117-113 for Blake Judge No. 2 Scores it 119-115 for RacerX Judge No.3 scores it better to spend your money reworking existing heads with the shop of your choice than buy firebolt heads. WE HAVE A DRAW.....g'nite all | ||
| Dueller |
Uhhhh, Rocket....you got my vote for Prime Minister. I've dedicated an extra case in your honor in the Breadbox contest...Think you could get Blake and RacerX into that debate forum I see on BBC satellite? We could all sit around and do the "HEAR, HEAR" thingy. Aaron...excellent points. BTW, were you able to use that ratty M2 header I sent to you a while back? Given the high quality of your projects I was a little embarrased to send it to you! jim | ||
| Racerx |
Well blake yes it did The year eludes me now, but I am sure with all your resorceful knowlege you can look it up, It was the first funny car to break 300MPH!! that was a major jump for funny car technology. So hmmm at the time being the first to break 300 I have got to imagine it broke a record and won a few races. But then again what the Fu#@ do I know me and my half truths. May be if you asked me a few questions at a time instead of a thousand questions at once, I'm not the computer savy nerd that some here are. As for who would want to rev there engine above 7g's Hell you bounce it off that rev limiter a few times you'll love thoes cylinder walls. | ||
| Rick_A |
Just to butt in a little here... Blake, I've always seen headwork offered in stages by shops...usually in increments from 1 to 3. The specifics vary from shop to shop, but whether it be a car, bike, two stroke, four stroke, that's how I've always seen it. Every shop has their own standards and procedures...and most of the time it seems people get what they pays for. I agree with Aaron...I wouldn't trust a shop that I haven't seen documented proof of absolute success of the advertised services. | ||
| Fssnoc2501 |
RacerX, I am going to butt in one last time. You have got a burr under your saddle also, alot of folks have come to your defense and not once have you acknowledged any of them. The way I see it both of you got heated up, but when others go out of their way to defuse you need to look at the gift. Show some class. Don't argue and whine stand up, state facts and acknowledge help. Ray (duckingfrombothofthem) | ||
| Racerx |
You are right Fss I would like to Thank all thoes who have stood up in my defense You know who you are most I have talked to thru e-mail Fss thanks for pointing that out i was a little blinded there. I would like to thank rocket for comiing all the way across the pond for defense. Agian thank you all very much (no sarcasim intended at all) | ||
| Rempss |
Whether one calls it Stage 1 or any other name he wants to "market" it under, it needs defined for a logical comparison. Racerx said:
Followed by Blakes response of:
Now 40+ posts later, only one modification has been defined. A link to the definition has been given, a listing of the process has been provided and many posts elsewhere on this board have given FACTS about the quality and outcome of the work. Your definition(?) of said job here does not offer ANY qualification of what a Stage 3 IS. Only a vauge description of what kind of things he CAN do if asked. Racerx asked for a few questions at a time instead of a thousand, (1) was asked:
It would have been so easy to say, I don't know; here is what was included a, b,c etc. Compare the two and make a choice. Instead a comment like this was offered.
Milling the heads is "crap"? Balancing is "common sense"? Sounds like the store that will beat any competitors price, every time you add something else to the list - "Of course that's included in our price too" As long as YOU bring it up to them. If it isn't defined / listed, how can a customer make a decision? Nothing is "common sense" when I'm spending my money. Seen too much garbage work in my life. Also, lighten up a bit. I don't remember the "loser" of this discussion having to sacrifice a kidney or anything. Just a good conversation, let it flow. No need to defend anything unless you have stated it. Just back it up, or back down and enjoy another argument. Hell, I've been wrong / mis-informed before, back in the 80's. I'll admit it.  Jeff | ||
| Racerx |
Sorry i did get a little mad it is that I can't tpe out as well as I talk and it gets a little frustrating. Also he is a reaaal good friend of mine and i am real defensive. I admit I haven't been that clear, but i will list down everything that comes with the "Bargin rate" head job as Blake so eliquently put it. Tis late and i need sleep till then. Eat my shorts. | ||
| Pammy |
You guys have missed the REAL topic! Rocket sez..."Imagine I was Pammy's lover ! Maybe she could get Wes to flow me some heads for free. top tune for no money see." So when did Rocket become a prostitute....and when did I express the need for such. The old addage(sp?) "Ass,gas or grass...nobody rides for free", doesn't apply to services provided by Cycle-Rama. Rocket, I would however,as a courtesy to you, be willing to look over your resume(please be specific) photo's welcome and appreciated. ;0} | ||
| Blake |
Jeff, Such clarity of perception and conciseness of thought. ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) Pammy, Run! Run far and run fast! Now for the silly question... Do y'all offer "Stage-3" headwork? Also, saw your site has moved to Nightrider.com. The old site is gone?  RacerX, Yes, "half truths". Did you not imply that your headwork alone gained you "close to 20 ponies on the dyno", when in fact many of those (actually 18) ponies were a result of jetting, tuning, and a performance intake? Did you not also state that it is "nothing special" to coax 100+ RWHP out of a Buell and even go so far as to imply that a set of stock heads would, with nothing special, support such performance? Here's a suggestion. Speak plainly and simply, stick to simple facts; lose the confrontational/personal tone. If you blather bullshit in a debate with me, I WILL call you on it. It isn't personal, at all. I expect the same in return. Rocket, Thanks for your honesty?  | ||
| Seatonii |
I have a few questions and comments about all this. My knowledge base is from the automotive side of things, V8 hot rods. I would assume that the things I see around about Nallin head porting that he is a Very good head porter. I would also assume that A LOT of other people around, in the performance industry for bikes and cars, are very good head porters as well. Some of these people may be great at porting a Big Block chevy heads for example. I would think that a good head porting no matter what they normally work on would or should know a lot about air flow and how to improve it. With all this considered I would think that a good head porter could flow a set of Buell heads to make fairly good flow numbers as well as power, maybe not quite as much as Nallin but I would think it would be somewhat comparable. Also have we ever compared the flow numbers from a set of Nallin's head vs. someone else's, I have never seen it, if it is posted on this board. Also I am not talking about peak numbers because that does not tell the whole story. We would need a chart with low lift number all the way up to 600 lift or so. One reason I bring all this up is because you can have a set of V8 chevy heads, 16 ports ported for similar price to what Nallin charges for a Buell head, four ports. Sorry for the long post. Thanks for letting me voice my opinion and ask a few questions. P.S. I am not trying to start an argument or offend anyone. DWIGHT 00X1 | ||
| Pammy |
I sha'nt get into an argument over headwork and who does what....but (and I mean this in the most kind and gentle, motherlike way, cause Blake you know I love ya better'n my favorite socks!): Just about everyone in the industry uses the 'Stage' to catagorize headwork, engine work, mental illness, etc... Wes uses hp....the old Aretha Franklin song sums up Wes' philosophy..."Whachu want...baby, I got it". And, of course, it depends on the day of the week. (just kidding on the last part) | ||
| Racerx |
Blake i was tryin to be the Better man in this but fuck you. "" Did you not also state that it is "nothing special" to coax 100+ RWHP out of a Buell and even go so far as to imply that a set of stock heads would, with nothing special, support such performance?"" This is the the forth time that you have mis quoted me. I am done with you and this "debate" And as for performance intake. Ha agian you cant pay attention when you have to spit your knowlege, I said jet kit and new air cleaner. Thats all were not talkin 44mm Mikuni Flat slide here. | ||
| Blake |
Really? Where? Are these bargain ported Chevy heads supporting over 1.5 crank HP per cubic inch displacement? That would be equivalent to 540 HP out of a normally aspirated Chevy 350 V8 on pump gas. If you want to be fair and compare apples to apples, that is the level of performance the V8 heads would need to support. I'll see if Nallin Racing will agree to release the flow bench data for my Stage-2 heads, however flow numbers are not the whole story. The truest and best measure of the quality of a head porting job are the dyno results, most easily identified by studying the torque curve. I learned that from Aaron, and what used to be an enigma to me now seems common sense... that with all else being equal, cylinder fill efficiency is THE primary factor governing the engine's torque output. Also, the steady state flow performance indicated by a flow bench does not take into account the very transient pulsing nature of actual conditions in an engine's intake tract. There are also chamber mixing dynamics (swirl) to consider. I think a good performance head porter needs to become intimately familiar with the heads he works if they are to be optimally tuned. There is a lot of science to head porting, but in practicality there is much more art, at least from what I have seen. Fluid dynamics is about as far from an intuitive subject as I have studied, and flexible three-dimensional computational fluid dynamics (3-D CFD) analysis programs are not yet in the realm of available software for the casual (non-CFD expert) user. And don't even think about a 3-D CFD with transient flow and temperature conditions! When such powerful and technically advanced simulation/analysis software does become available to and usable by the skilled professionals of performance engine shops, the whole world of head porting will be transformed. A computer will be able to optimize porting for each specific combination of cam, piston/CR, intake and exhaust tract and then spit the info to a 5 axis CNC mill that will self index and port the head automatically. Don't hold your breath though. It's going to be a while. Besides, it kinda takes the fun out of it. This would make an excellent article for Battle 2Win. They could anonymously purchase a set of Stage-2 class heads from each of a bunch of respected sources, then run them on the same engine and compare results. You know, just like they do with mufflers and exhaust systems. I'd propose just the headwork, a race kit (intake exhaust and ECM) and a set of SE cams, the 536's so that stock valve train can be maintained. Run HP and Torque with A/F versus rpm starting at 2,000 rpm in 5th gear, also report elapsed time from 50 mph to 80 mph, 70mph to 100mph, and 100 to 140 mph. | ||
| Blake |
The flow data, independently measured, would be interesting to compare as well. | ||
| V2win |
Well.....I was in on this from the start and have been watching the fireworks show since then. Let me tell you a little story about headwork. Two friends, Tom and Jerry, were out on the town one night. They decided to visit the local brothel. Tom's goes in first. The madam ask,"do you want the regular or deluxe job'. Tom ask,"how much are they." "$150 and $300" she says. "I'll take the deluxe", he says, and is taken upstairs. Next comes in Jerry. Same questions from the madam. Jerry ask, "I only have $100, will that get me the deluxe? The madam thinks a while then says, sure! Later that night, Tom says to Jerry, "Boy, I sure had a good time. That deluxe was the best." "Me too. It sure was the best $100 dollars I ever spent",says Jerry. | ||
| Seatonii |
Blake, I would agree with your post about flow numbers not being everything. I did not mean to imply that flow numbers alone would be an exact comparison between two head porters. I just wanted to use this information as a base line. As far as your comment that "Really? Where? Are these bargain ported Chevy heads supporting over 1.5 crank HP per cubic inch displacement? That would be equivalent to 540 HP out of a normally aspirated Chevy 350 V8 on pump gas." You can put together a 10.5:1 350 with aftermarket heads that make 540 HP on pump gas with NO port work. Then if you flow the heads you can make even more power. To compare the buell head, even in aftermarket form, to the flow numbers and HP potential of a small block chevy head is like comparing apples and oranges. A good after market small block head, even in the stock 23 degree angle versions, will flow A LOT more air and MAKE A LOT more HP per cubic inch than any sportster head that I have seen or heard of that is using a stock style intake and exhaust port location. Well any way, a person that is very knowledgeable about flowing a Buell head would more than likely make a little more power than a person that does some other heads all the time. But, how much of a difference. Lets say the Buell head porter can make 2 to 3 more HP on a buell than another head porter. Lets say the buell head porter charges $1000 for his port work. Now if it costs $400 for another porter to port the same heads and it makes 2 to 3 less HP. The way look at it for a bike driven on the street like mine, I will keep my $600 to have 2 to 3 less HP. This is my personal point of view on the subject. DWIGHT | ||
| Pammy |
O.K. boys, I have heard quite enough of this bickering. This internet coffee house may amplify our strong personalities a bit and I hate to think anyone would miss out on having a great friend(potentially) because of one heated discussion gone awry. Now Blake and RacerX, can we retract some of the harsh comments made here, agree to disagree, kiss and make-up? I think we can. There, isn't that better? Yes, I feel the love. Now, don't make me get all 'Momma don't play that' on yer asses...play nice!! | ||
| Hootowl |
The difference in price may have to do with supply and demand. A head shop that does V8 head work probably sees more work than Nallin. He's got to charge enough to stay in business, whereas the standard head shop charges less because they get more business and have a whole lot of other shops competing with them for customers. There's only a few reputable shops out there that do head work for Buells. When I think about having my heads worked on, only a few names come to mind. I'm sure there are other shops out there, but who hears about them nationally? Wes and Brian pretty much have the market cornered, but it isn't from advertising. It's from doing great work and having people like us rave about them. Can another shop produce the same or roughly the same results as Brian and Wes for less money? Probably yes. Do I know of any? No. Would I trust the reliability of my bike to an unknown? Probably not. Would I pay more for the peace of mind of knowing that I got a proven quality product for my hard earned money that isn't going to grenade my engine? Sure. MHO. I don't have much room to talk as I have stock heads, and don't plan on doing anything to them unless I have a failure which would require a head rebuild. It's not broke, so I'm not fixing it. My bike has enough power to scare me as it is. Besides, I rarely rev it above 4500 anyway, so the extra power up top would largely go unused. Sure would be fun though. | ||
| Aaron |
Dueller ... no, honestly, Wes surprised me with the dimensions he threw at me and that header turned out not to fit into the plans. However, FMJ needs some exhaust work, so if it's okay with you, I'd like to see if it's useful on his bike. If not, I'll send it back to you and cover your shipping. Is that okay? Thanks, AW | ||
| Henrik |
Pammy wrote: So when did Rocket become a prostitute....and when did I express the need for such. Isn't it the trademark of a good sales-person, to make you aware of a need you didn't know you had?  ... and with Rocket shaving his legs n'all Henrik | ||
| Racerx |
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