| Author | Message | ||
     Gentleman_jon |
In these days of high fuel prices, a recent suggestion from Rod Pink at the Danbury Harley Davidson Buell Day makes more sense that ever. Rod, who raced on factory Harleys back in the day, gave a very interesting talk on the theory behind suspension set up. Later in the day, he casually dropped the fact that he uses 87 octane fuel in his XB9R. I must say I was rather surprised, but Ron explained that XB9 engine is so well designed from the combustion point of view that it actually does not require high octane fuel. ( If you are like me, you were always trying to find the highest octane possible:-). He explained that high octane fuels are only required to compensate for engines that ping. If I recall properly, he said that low octane fuels burn at a higher temp, and slower, thus producing more torque. Both Glitch and I have burned a couple of tankfuls of the low test with no complaints at all. More torque? I have tried to convince myself that my butt dyno says yes. Glitch says he can't see any difference. Of course, this is NOT recommended for the XB12, where pinging has been reported as a problem. | ||
| Holling |
Interesting, but risking possible detonation problems for 20 cents a gallon more x 3 gallons is not worth the risk. I will stay with 93 octane premium. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
During the colder winter months I run 87 in my XB12, but during the hotter summer months here in Phoenix I can't even think of running anything less then 92 and on really hot days I still get a little bit of ping. Fullpower up in Alaska has been running low octane in his 12 pretty much from the start I beleive, but again his ambiant temp is pretty close to my winter months. | ||
| Patrickh |
high octane gas should only be run if your bike pings on lower octane fuel. High octane gases usually have extra detergents as a "added value" for purchasing premium stuff. These additives can cause premature carbon build up on your valve stems and piston crowns. That being said...I only run 92 or higher octane in my M2 | ||
| Tomd |
Hi, Octane requirements vary by altitude, engines running at sea level have a greater tendency to detonate than the same engine running the same fuel at higher altitudes. I live at sea level, in my 12s I need to run straight 92-93 in the cooler months, in the summer I put some booster in. Tom | ||
| Fullpower |
I am at 12 feet above sea level. we have very cool dense air here on the south coast of Alaska. In my part of the world the highest octane available is 90 octane, that is what they call "premium" here. habitually ran the best i could find, after many miles on high compression sportster. While buying wife a Ducati ( the other air cooled twin) the mechanic mentioned to me that the Ducati will actually prefer 87 octane, and would run better on that grade, wife and i would fill at the same 87 octane pump. XB12 did not seem to care a bit. i actually CAN get my 12 to ping a bit.... when inadvertantly starting out in second gear. on a real hot day in the interior i have had a slight rattle at low rpm. after 15,600 miles it does not seem to be a big problem. the story of BETTER AND MORE detergents in hi test fuel is complete B.S. the federal government requires detergents in specified quantities in motor fuel. if its good enough for grannies ford tempo, it's good enough for my Buell. | ||
| Bigsherm9r |
Your owner's manual states the XB needs the higher octane. That's what it was designed for. Sherm | ||
| Typeone |
"in my 12s I need to run straight 92-93 in the cooler months, in the summer I put some booster in." why? because it pings if you dont? i'm curious because i'm fed up with the ping in my 12. i have an appointment next week to try and get it cured once and for all, fingers x'd. i was out for a few hour ride today testing another set of plugs (NGK 9 series iridium). i can't accelerate at a normal pace in lower RPM under load without the thing pinging/knocking/rattling/whatever like mad. temps weren't that high today either but i know heat has something to do with it. not sure if the motor is running abnormally hot. the fan is on ALL the time. there's no way in hell I could get away with testing 87 in my bike. it gets nothing but 93. i'm scared of booster but i have tried it. i gotta give props to DaveS once again, this guy is the real deal. he put me in touch with Buell regarding the issue and I'm traveling 2.5hrs away to have Meredith Buell/H-D try to work some majik on her. i've tried everything i know, all learned through this great board, to cure it but it wont go away. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I'm curious about something... Typeone, had you ever ridden Harleys or any other aircooled twins before you got your Buell? To me, my XB12R sounds like I threw a bunch of nuts & bolts into a giant blender and turned it on. That's how I know everything is ok. If one day I don't hear all that grinding, or it sounds like the blender isn't as full, it means time to put the bike on the lift. Imagine how much noise there would be with a dry clutch! my$.02 | ||
| Brucelee |
Over 10,000 miles at 55 MPG, you might save less than $40. This is worth it? | ||
| Typeone |
Pwnzor, no, never owned a Harley or an air cooled twin but i've had air cooled bikes before, an 80 Elsinore and an 88 XR250. very different machines than my 12, i know. I love all the noises my Buell makes, its mechanical music to me but you can tell when the music isn't in tune. Not at all like a blender full of bolts but more along the lines of raw-mechanical-precision. Its why i love the bike, you can feel it living and breathing. So addictive. This issue is straight-up evil knocking under load and occurs in bands of differing degrees of severity in different RPM ranges. I know some have accepted this, and my dealer has even said 'they all do it' but i refuse to accept that. Buell would not release a 'high-performance' version of this engine with this kind of knock present. It occurs right in the spots you wanna have fun, especially with all that torque on tap! Hoping this week is a step towards curing it. | ||
| Glitch |
Once Gentleman_Jon got in touch with me about this, it made me curious as to what would happen. If it ran badly, I'd just stop and go with the high test again. Well as G_J said, I see no difference at all. We have heat and traffic, Atlanta is known for these two things to get out of control. I was expecting for at least a ping, but nope, no ping, no running rough, no difference at all. This was just an experiment, we're no telling ya'll what to put in your bikes, G_J just heard this from someone he respected, and wanted to know what I thought. Since he lives up north and I live down south, we figured we'd see what would happen. Can't say what the deal is with the XB12, only that most all the guys I know that have one, have ping. FYI: 03 XB9S. K&N filter, Buell Race ECM & Race pipe, header wrapped, cut XB12 airbox. | ||
| Niceharleystuff |
I showed Rod this post. He had a few points he wanted me to add. 87 octane in XB’s - Rod Says: In reference to questions in 1200’s, but not in 985’s. Longer stroke motor has longer compression duration and longer burn time raising cylinder head temp. XB9’s are far less sensitive to preignition. Obviously you must use enough octane to avoid pinging. Less octane will net more torque. (Seat of the pants feel) Race kitted bikes (intake, ECM, exhaust) run richer and cooler than stock equipped bikes. | ||
| Saintly |
I gave it a shot. I filled up with Amoco/BP 87 last night. I rode down to Brooklyn today and my XB9 pinged and detonated so damn bad it wasn't funny! I wont be doing that again any time soon! | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Charley and Fritz - Thanks for your information. It appears that in order to use the 87, a race kit may be required: both Glitch and I have race ECM's and no problems. Saintly appears to be running a stock unit and has bad pinging. Is that correct Fritz? Rod says that Race Kitted nines run cooler and and richer than stock bikes. Anybody else have any experience or insight to share? | ||
| Saintly |
No. I have a race ecm. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Fritz, Damn- Sorry that your motor acted up. Hope it is ok. I just wonder why the 87 works fine in all of the nines that I know that have used it except yours. Frankly, I am just stumped. Any ideas anyone? | ||
| Glitch |
Any ideas anyone? Could be any number of things. State of tune, number of miles on the bike, heat of the day, load on the bike... I've got the Race ECM, Buell Race muffler, no snorkel, K&N filter, with only the top part of an XB12 air box. Two summers ago I had a pinging problem, TPS reset didn't fix it, cooler plugs didn't fix it, octane boost didn't fix it... The problem turned out to be a timing issue, I checked it and it seemed to be a little off, but wasn't confident that I was checking it right (I don't have a scan tool), so I took it to SMHD&B, and asked them to check everything and reset if something was wrong, the timing was too advanced, all's well now. The only time I hear anything like a ping now is if I'm in 5th at 3800rpm or lower, and try to accelerate too hard. | ||
| Glitch |
Saintly, do you have an aftermarket muffler? Not sure what Nxtr'd my muffler means. | ||
| Gowindward |
Typeone, I had pinging on my 12R anytime the weather was warm and the motor was under load and as the weather got hotter it got worse. I tried colder NGK plugs with only small improvement. I too got tired of it and decided it was time to check the static timing. The timing was OFF!!! It was advanced several degrees. I set the time per the shop manual and the pinging is GONE!! I can't stress enough to check the static timing or have it checked if your bike is pinging. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Also if the FAN is in fact running all the time, they need to check your cylinder heat temp sensor. If its reading high its going to act like the motor is running hot. Also, are you sure that it is in fact "ping" that you hear, and not the primary chain being loose? Under load it puts more strain on the chain, and if its loose, it will bounce around more then if its not under load, so it won't matter what rev range its in. My bike pings only through 3500-4500 under load. And that is if its over 95F. I know how hot Atlanta and GA can get, but the humidity level will help curb ping(why do you think they invented water injection?), the heat won't help the motor make more power, but the humidity will help to offset ping. Its when your running high heat and very little humidity that ping can be a real problem. | ||
| Glitch |
Good points about humidity, the only time I was pinging was in traffic, in the summer. My guess is the humidity didn't have a chance to help in Atlanta traffic, little does. | ||
| Typeone |
thanks for the response guys, check out this thread for my latest adventures in attempting to rid the bike of ping... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/145712.html?1126483843 Wycked, yup, its ping, not a loose primary chain. I check it regularly. | ||
| Saintly |
A NXTR'd muffler is a muffler who's rear chamber has been eliminated. Named after its creator: badweb member NXTR . See this thread for details - http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/131800.html Oh and by the way, as soon as I began filling the bike up with 92 octane Shell V-power the detonation was gone! It was purely due to the 87 octane that I had tried the night before at the suggestion of G. Jon |
