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99buellx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 05:26 pm: | 
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hydroformed, serpent, whatever, the outlets are plain ulgy IMHO. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 06:00 pm: |
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"So exhaust isn't restricted going through a pipe that gets smaller? "
Well, as I'm sure you know... It "does", BUT...
It looks to me like the pipe doesn't get smaller there. It gets smaller in one direction, but larger in the other. I think the overall area contained in a cross section would be the same. It may be larger.
Upon looking a bit closer it looks like that may work. I'm no engineer either though  . |
Bigblock
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 06:11 pm: |
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Think total area of cross section of pipe, not diameter of narrowest portion of oval... |
Litng_dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 06:12 pm: |
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Bingo! We have a winner! The cross sectional area of the pipe hasn't been reduced, but it has been re-shaped to maximize the gas velocity as it makes a transition in changing direction. |
Sokota
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 06:46 pm: |
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W.W 1 Bi Planes shaped their short headers from their radial cylinders just like this , this is not a new un proven idea, but an old proven one which is being improved upon by new manufacturing methods thus making it become more "affordable". |
Steve_larson
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 06:51 pm: |
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Regarding pipe size as you all seem to be getting pieces of the idea, maybe this will help...
Yes, hydroforming allows us to alter the shape of the pipe (for laminar flow as you are discussing above) while making the volume whatever we wish it to be in the bend. For simplistic example, the volume before the bend, in the bend, and after the bend are all the SAME, and gas velocity has been maintained. That is the reason for the "funky" shapes, it is all about gas speed and laminar flow.
As our hydroformed pipes are almost always constant tapers, the volume is always changing as the design criteria dictates. It is what makes hydroforming such a wonderful method of manufacturing. Any shape (for flow), any size down to 100th's of a mm (no limitations from tube suppliers), any bend (we have done 180's in a matter of inches) can be achieved, whatever the engineers and modeling programs think up, we can design. This is a "molded" pipe, not bent. And when done correctly, there will be virtually no effect on gas velocity as there would be in a conventional design.
It means that unlike any other production pipe in the World, we can run a taper thru the bend itself, or inside the the collector. Anything we want, anywhere we want, there are no real limitations.
What we are also interested in seeing is how the pipe works with some of the "less then racing" motors. We have tested on stock bikes, and have been very happy with the full race motors, but really have not tried any of the more "mild" motor upgrades that we see here in the US. We suspect that is going to be a very good area for us as better breathing motors will really take advantage of the Serpent design.
We agree, the "proof is in the pudding" and we will be having some soon. Please keep in mind that perfect bends do not make "50+ HP" on a stock motor. The exhaust is only one part of the powerplant equation. Going after perfect bends does make for very smooth torque curves, and our ability to make power across the curve, not just "here" or "there". But if you have a great flowing exhaust, with small throttle bodies, you are restricted in top end no matter what you try, just like a restrictor plate in racing. Just basic physics, no different then having all the motor in the world and a tiny exhaust primary. It is just not going to work.
Hope this helps everyone with the interesting discussion you are having.
Oh, and we seem to think that there is post or 20 from a member who does not like the tips...?
Steve Larson
Micron North America |
Jscott
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 07:04 pm: |
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I think the Tips look fantastic. If you had a fully faired XBR, those tips popping out on both sides would look very GP'ish.
(Message edited by jscott on August 02, 2005) |
Buellerx
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 07:15 pm: |
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That Pipe is Beautiful! I dont think the tips are ugly at all but that is a matter of personal taste. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 07:17 pm: |
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I don't suppose you could rotate those tips down a little so you get a nice cloud of dust when you start it ? Of course, this is ONLY if they wouldn't drag at high lean angles anyway...
We Americans are so vain  . |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 07:22 pm: |
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What's it made of? Can we get it in that golden color that's stock on the 12's?
How much does it weigh?
It's fairly hard to see... Is the collector the same size and in the same position as the stock header? If not... May I suggest that it be moved there? I only ask this because I think this would help you sell a lot of headers to people that only want the header... Most people that already shelled out for a Drummer or D&D or something else probably aren't going to want to shell out another $1200 for the full system, but if someone can prove that the header alone makes some additional power gains they would buy the header...
Personally, I'm in that category. I would like to see the gains separated between the header and the muffler.
Can we get some sound clips?
Thanks in advance . |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 07:27 pm: |
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You're working with Al so I'm sure he informed you of the fact that those spoiler mounts (particularly the front one) needs to be capable of withstanding some very serious vibration and loading?
Just to give you an example... I have a Force exhaust right now (LOVE the sound, HATE the power delivery) and the front bracket lasted LESS than one week. That bracket typically lasts about a month or two on the 984, but it breaks VERY quickly on the 1203 engine. I have welded it up sufficiently so that it now works, but I'd just HATE to see you go through what Force did here... |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 09:42 pm: |
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Steve Larson,
Really cool of you to pop into our little corner of the web here. I'm betting that some of our sponsors will be eager to offer your hydroformed headers as soon as you show the performance benefits that they provide. Will be looking forward to seeing your dyno testing results.
Glitch,
To try to put is simply, fast moving ducted gasses that are forced to negotiate a sharp bend will actually separate from the inside (smaller radius) wall of the duct (header pipe) thus in effect the exhaust gas is only using a portion of the cross sectional area of its duct (header pipe). This is the same phenomenon that causes an airfoil (airplane wing) to stall and lose lift. The airflow detaches from the surface of the wing, the plane loses lift, no good. In this case the only detrimental effect is reduced efficiency, or in terms of cylinder head porting, reduced flow.
As Lightisright (name please?) points out, the reshaping of the duct cross section at a bend provides a larger usable cross-sectional area through which the fast moving gasses can flow.
What the "D" or elliptical shaped cross section of bent ducting does is to simply remove that portion of the duct/pipe cross section that is not otherwise occupied by fast moving exhaust gasses and moves that duct wall to places where it can be useful, thus a more constant radius flow path around the bend.
See if the following helps.
Exhaust Flow Through Bend in Header
Please note that the above is for illustration of the basic principle of flow separation it is not intended to portray the detailed geometry or relationships of the flow as it negotiates the bend. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 09:46 pm: |
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Which cross section at the bend of the header offers more more usable area through which the exhaust gasses can efficiently flow, the round cross section, or the elliptical one? |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 09:50 pm: |
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Can you see that even a smaller cross section could provide more efficient flow than a larger one. Imagine the most horrible case where the elliptical section is rotated 90 degrees. Yuck! That would be horrible for the efficiency of the exhaust tract. Probably even better than the elliptical section would be a "D"-shaped one. Too late, I already did the MS Paint thing. |
Henrik
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 09:56 pm: |
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Steve: Thanks for that very nice explanation.
Proof in pudding is nice indeed. Also glad to hear you're looking at the dyno results with mildly upgraded motors.
Henrik |
Captjim
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
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Steve/Micron: Glad to here of another vendor supporting the Buell brand. Your product looks great! We like hard facts so dyno comparisons of stock vs. the serpent pipe on the same dyno would be perfect.
Also, I personally am not to fond of the tips. And did you here that others are not fond of the tips, I would have to agree the tips don't seem to fit the bike and I don't care for them.  |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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Really glad to start to see some "main line" aftermarket support for Buells. I (we? don't like to speak for others) appreciate that developing a Buell pipe presents more challenges than other bikes might. Here's hoping that your dyno charts bring much success!
BTW, are the slip couplings on the final system? Why not one-piece headers? Or welded? Are there limitations on the length on the hydroforming setup?
Ugly? Nah. Engineering science is NEVER ugly. The new BMW 7 Series? Ugly. Pontiac Aztec? Ugly. Ducati Multistrada? REALLY ugly. More power from clever design? BEAUUUUUUTIFUL. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 10:56 pm: |
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I think those donkey ear tips go with the Buell/Muell theme well. They do look a bit dorky though. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 12:14 am: |
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As long as they don't drag at full lean over a bump with the suspension compressed I'll be happy . |
Hattori_hanzo
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:01 pm: |
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Sound clip please...
Funny M1, when ya first looked at it you thought, "bends look all wrong..", but you've been slightly turned around into thinking, "hey, that might work...". I don't think I've ever witnessed that with you! Is this a newer, more open minded Don we are seeing? (just bustin' ya balls dude!  )
I'm also excited another respected after market supplier sees Buell as a viable market. Can only mean bigger and better things! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:19 pm: |
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Well, at first when I looked at them (just a glance really) it looked as if someone had just grabbed both ends of the pipe and bent it until it "looked good" so to speak. Then I took a closer look .
I DO like the fact that they seem to have kept close to the stock location and shape. Buell seems to have done VERY well with the header to start with. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:22 pm: |
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I'm pretty curious to see what they did with the O2 sensor... If the shape of the rear header just after the port is in the same orientation relative to the port as the front (and I would think it is)... What direction is the o2 sensor pointed? |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 06:14 pm: |
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FYI
http://photos.micronexhaust.com/
If you select "Buell" and "XB9&XB12", there are more pix one with the O2 bung. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 06:52 pm: |
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Beautiful... Thank you . |
Xbdave9s
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 08:05 pm: |
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just an off the wall question that came to mind while reading this post. How much of project is it to swap out the header pipes? I thought I had
previously read on this board that the engine had to be lowered.
thanks
Dave |
Xb12rene
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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Dave, search in the archives (header, remove). I found it there (I believe it was from Bud) and did swap the headers without lowering the engine.
Now my thoughts to the micron system. I like the header, but the tips are to long or to far back for my taste. The price is o.k. if you compare it with other full exhaust systems (Force, TI-Force, Deep Thunder). But in the end I wouldn't buy it. I have an issue with those tips.
On the other side I'm pleased to see that more aftermarket companies bring out products for our Buells, more to chose from.
Just my thoughts.
Rene
(Message edited by xb12rene on August 03, 2005) |
Jscott
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 12:09 pm: |
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Maybe offer tip options.
Shorter ones for the guys without taste , but don't get rid of the current ones, they are dead sexy! |
Buelluk
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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.....Those bends have been developed extensively in world superbike. Micron uses the same design on the Foggy/Petronas bike. They know what they're doing.
}......
I am sure that Micron have a pretty good idea what they are doing, the Foggy /Petronas example doesnt support that argument very well though |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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Blake, and Steve Larson, thank ya'll so much for not thinking I was trolling, or just thick. Both explanations really helped me understand.
BadWeB rocks as do the people that care to take the time and help make thing understandable.
Thanks again. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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One other thing, this isn't going to be too terribly loud is it? |
Scitz
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 03:12 pm: |
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XB12rene, I did a search for header removal without dropping the engine and found a few articles. Most of them talked about going from the top side and removing the tail section, fans, and other items. It seems either way it's a lot of work and would be best to just follow the manual. If you don't have wheel stands of a way to support the bike I would maybe try the alternative. I bought a XB header on eBay that is getting coated as I type and plan on installing soon. I've had it for awhile but have been putting the project off due to having the lower the engine. |
Xb12rene
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
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Scitz, if you want to lower the engine there are also tips on the board. Mostly taking some steps out of the method in the service manual.
Due I didn't had wheel stands I took the approach through the fan.It wasn't to much work, because I didn't had to take any cables of, only loosen the shock and take out the fan. On the other side I had to take several trips to my local hardware store to get the tools for the tight space, it worked out fine.
to Steve_Larson, can You put a soundclip of the exhaust on the board, I would like to hear the pipe.
Thanks
Rene |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 04:56 pm: |
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I hung the front of the bike from a 4X6 that's part of a friends porch.
Try a search for something like "Force header installed" or "Force header swapped". Run it out to about 200 days or so... it was a while ago now. |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |
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OK, here's my opinion:
For $1200 or however much it is, those tips could be a lot less ugly and they don't need to stick out that far.
Lets face it, our bikes are not even close to being the fastest thing out there. But they are the best-looking bike, with the most class of any sport bike. You know why you bought it.
In summation, I dont care if the hydroforming is the best in the world, the bends are ugly. The tips are ugly. No sale.
just my .02 |
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