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M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 01:08 pm: | 
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 .
I know it's nit picking... but it DOES really show at least one detail about your attitude towards Buell...
Why didn't you say "There are many bikes that don't handle as well."?
Maybe it's just your personality... No problem here. Really . Just thought I'd mention it. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 01:16 pm: |
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>>>>>The interesting thing to remember here is, some of us go back a long way, we've made solid friendships that transcend bike loyalty. With this level of friendship we can engage in arguments over bikes without worrying too much about consequenses, that's how it's suppose to be, among friends.
Snail: If you persist in your quest to interject common sense to this thread (yes, you've hit the nail squarely on the head) I'll have no choice but to. . . to . . to . . . well, you know.
>>>>what would happen if Buell ever produced a world-class superbike, big HP and all?
I'd kinda hate to see that happen. Bikes like that typically, don't fool yourself, seell particularly well. Don't get me wrong, my riding partner Phil has popped for the 999R one of the Series Oro MV'4 and all kinds of goodies. He knows, and he's right, those bikes are loss leaders. You can never amortize any R&D over 500 units a year.
Buell needs to target a market that supports their business model. They'll soon be outselling BMW and need to be preparing the company for unprecendented success.
court
(Message edited by court on August 04, 2005) |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 02:00 pm: |
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M1,
So now you're a psychologist as well?
Fair enough. Allow me to retort: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Vik |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 02:49 pm: |
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I suppose... Just struck me as interesting given our current directions in this thread. That's all  . |
Jon
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 02:52 pm: |
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Congratulations, Buell. |
Jon
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 02:53 pm: |
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And may the force be with you (dramatic pause)
always.... |
Xb12rene
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 03:57 pm: |
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Here is the link to the article with the XB12S click here.
The XB came in second last, but in the text is stated that it handles like a 250 GP bike(pg. 4).
A fact is that 2005 the best handling bike ever, after BIKE magazine, is the XB12R. I congratulate Buell to the award.
But if 2006 the best handling bike ever, after whichever magazine, is a Buell, a Kawasuyana ZYGSX xxx RR, a Bimota Tesi 2D, or even a MZ1000S, I will congratulate the winner too.
For me it is more important how I feel on the bike as if it is the best cornering, or the fastest or the whatever. If the bike makes me smile then I ride it (my Buell certainly does), it is the right bike for me.
And now I watch Passani's videos and go for a ride
Rene |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:13 pm: |
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Interesting article René, thanks for sharing it.
MCN has some very positive comments for the XB12S...
quote:The Buell’s reputation for handling like a superbike and steering as fast as a 250cc GP bike is well deserved. Scratching on the handling circuit at Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground in Leicestershire, it doesn’t take long to realise that out of the box, the Lightning out-handles all the bikes here. But that’s not all – if you could get an R1 to brake, steer and feel as solid mid-corner as the Buell, you could paint it blue and give it to Rossi to play with.
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Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:23 pm: |
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missah court, he done said:
"Buell needs to target a market that supports their business model. They'll soon be outselling BMW and need to be preparing the company for unprecendented success. "
I agree completely. the BMW is an outrageously overrated machine. The buell is simpler and, in general, less maintenance-intensive, and more torquey. more importantly, from a marketing standpoint, it's American-made in a country that tends to fly it's flag.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:24 pm: |
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The ones referred to as 'naysayers' will have their say when they read the Bike article. No question it is great press for Buell. The testers findings cannot be sneered upon either given the high standing all the testers come from. They are one and all possibly biking gods in their own rights and one would be a fool to dismiss or disagree with their findings. For the 'naysayers' they will pick the formula used to pieces and they will make it support their argument which means in reality they will shoot the not particularly scientific formula down in flames and in so doing ridicule the XB12R as the best cornering bike ever. It's a shame some will do this because the formula is based more on, to coin a phrase, 'real world' findings, which is exactly why the Buell is on top where it deserves to be if the testers are to be believed. Consequently the argument will rage on.
Anyway I've read the article and..............................................
Rocket |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:36 pm: |
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I think of this board as being like a big, serious rig- it's "owner-operated", and while I'm enjoying the lift I hitched, I have class enough not to put my feet up on the dash or to criticize the George Jones song on the radio.
I appreciate the lift. |
Jon
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:38 pm: |
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Right on.
Thanks for the link XB12rene, and thanks for highlighting the pertinent stuff Blake. I read most of the review. The XB is (as has already been mentioned) second to last overall (those idiots!! ), but in handling... well you can read it for yourself.
Cool again. |
Hardcorps
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:50 pm: |
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Where can you buy this magazine in the US, I have stopped at three or four book stores, and I can't find it.
Hard Corps |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:52 pm: |
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Anony:
You need to do some research before you make such statements.
Things I've given back to the Buell community:
At the IMS in San Mateo one year, Gary found himself severly understaffed for people to lead demo rides. I spent the entire show guiding demo rides on Buells.
I worked parking detail for the Buell parking area at Laguna Seca. I had already bought a ticket, so I did it for free.
When Leslie Hudson was planning the BRAG California touring adventure, I helped to plan out two days worth of the ride and scouted the roads again a week before due to a freak weather storm.
I have sent spare Buell parts to people in need, free of charge.
When Vallejo Buell's race bike lost it's map in the ECM, I worked with Terry to recover the data.
When Buell was dangerously close to being banned from Formula IV racing in the AFM, I not only drafted two letters to the board, I drove to Oakland in rush hour traffic to fight for the brand.
I've put up badwebbers at my house when they were on their way through town and I've gone out and recovered broken bikes.
Things I've taken:
A bike that I had to make payments for and could not take delivery of for 6 weeks due to the great recall of '99.
One complete engine rebuild and three top ends in 27,000 miles.
A combined 7 months in the shop in three and a half years of ownership.
Bodywork that fell apart. Turns out the X1 Extreme's bodywork couldn't handle the test of time.
A fantasic oil slick in my garage due to paper gaskets used by the factory.
So yeah, I guess you could say have taken more than I've given.
Vik |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 12:12 am: |
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Anon,I cannot speak for Cecil/Brian H as he is oughta my area,but have ridden many Buell rides (Laguna several times,All Cal Brag Ride,Sonoma Fest,etc,etc with Vik,Alan,and Paul.Vik and I had a hoot railing together on the All CA ride,Paul(Snail)put us all up,fed us,and entertained us all at his house before we all went on the SPLASH ride with Ferris(Blue Groove NW was the ancestor of this ride) so,yes they have been apart of and given back to the Buell community.Vik and Alan are ardent supporters of Shawn Reilly and his exploits on the HD Buell of Vallejo bike. |
Jon
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
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Rocket,
I appreciate your insights, on the future of troll behavior here. I for one am not going to take the bait, but I am going to do my part to keep this a Buell enthusiast retreat, not a cafeteria embroiled in a food fight.
The bitching has run it's course. |
Brianh
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 01:44 am: |
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Wow, I didn't even make it through all of the posts and I see "Cecil" mentioned numerous times without ever muttering a word over here. So much for respecting your little Buell Orgy. Here are my comments on the article:
I have studied the graphs shown for each of the three test corners. I encourage everyone reading this to look at those graphs.
It appears that in the first corner the Buell does indeed carry the most speed "through the apex". But it enters the turn slowest and exits 2nd slowest. This indicates to me that the Buell would be easily passed on the brakes entering the turn or exiting the turn.
The second corner is very similar except this time the Buell enters the turn slowest and exits the slowest. It also appears to apex the slowest. Am I not reading the graph correctly?
On the 3rd corner we see a fairly good performance by the Buell relative to the other bikes. All the bikes seem to get smoked by the Husky though. Yes the Buell appears to carry decent speed at the apex. Compared to the ZX10 which appears to rush into the corner, jump on the brakes, point, then shoot out like a rocket, the Buell looks like a smoother turning machine. But in the end, the ZX10 leaves the turn at the same rate of speed as the Buell. If you carried the graphs out beyond 120 meters you'd see an incredible difference in speeds.
So, if you read between the lines of this article you can see that the Buell is really not all that great anywhere except in the dead center of the turn. That's great if you're literally riding around in circles or racing in a parking lot.
That said, we all know what the real problem is don't we? THE MOTOR! If the Buell could apex at the same speed but enter and exit the turn quicker it would smoke the competition. An affirmation of Erik's chassis design. Also proof that his poor engine choice ultimately ruins the whole package.
After reading the article and examining the test I don't see what you're crowing so loudly about. The Buell will still get smoked by the majority of modern motorcycles on the road and track.
For the record, the only argument I've read regarding those graphic illustrations are that Bike messed up the color codes. But that just doesn't seem to be the case after reading the article.
In all seriousness, whether the bike is the best cornering bike EVER or not, do you really think it's fast on the street or track? Now if an XB had 120hp and 3500rpm more, then we might have something.
Let's also not forget that to get his bike handling well, Shawn Reilly scrapped the Buell front end in favor of a GSXR setup. But I guess he wouldn't have a clue about racing Buells would he? He's not a "professional". HA!
No more gimmicks Buell. Get an engine or get lost.
P.S. I haven't given crap back to Buell. The way I see it they owe ME. Close to $20K spent on a 98 S3 to buy and keep it running.
(Message edited by Brianh on August 05, 2005)
(Message edited by Brianh on August 05, 2005) |
Brianh
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:00 am: |
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Put this in your knickers and twist...
Let's settle this once and for all Ok? I have some vacation time left and am now willing to incur expense and take time off to prove a point. Keep in mind ladies and gents, in the grand scheme of things, I'm SLOW.
Erik Buell can bring an XB, suspension mods/tweaks allowed but otherwise has to be bone stock, to an AMA sanctioned track of his choosing (I'm sure it'll be the smallest one). I'll show up with my 2002 F4i and we'll see which bike turns better lap times.
Pink slips?
So which bike do you think will come out on top? Afterall, he's an ex-racer and I'm just a loud mouth, slow, track day guy.
(Message edited by brianh on August 05, 2005) |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:24 am: |
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"If you carried the graphs out beyond 120 meters you'd see an incredible difference in speeds. "
Sure... but the article is about handling. You specifically mention 120M. MY favorite 11 mile section of road barely has 12M between 95% of the corners. I ride it in third between 60 and 105MPH (I hop into fourth on one straight). The speed limit is 35, about 10% of the corners are marked w/ a 15-20 suggestion. My OTHER favorite section of road probably has closer to 50M between many corners, but the corners are all 90-100+ sweepers. Road snakes, cracks and bumps abound. The Buell does very well here too.
It seems to do quite well playing follow the leader as well, but since I put my force pipe on it I don't play that game any more... It's too loud and would attract too much attention. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:24 am: |
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Oh... put that in your knickers and twist . |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:38 am: |
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quote:Posted by Brianh on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:00 am:
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Put this in your knickers and twist...
Let's settle this once and for all Ok? I have some vacation time left and am now willing to incur expense and take time off to prove a point. Keep in mind ladies and gents, in the grand scheme of things, I'm SLOW.
Erik Buell can bring an XB, suspension mods/tweaks allowed but otherwise has to be bone stock, to an AMA sanctioned track of his choosing (I'm sure it'll be the smallest one). I'll show up with my 2002 F4i and we'll see which bike turns better lap times.
Pink slips?
So which bike do you think will come out on top? Afterall, he's an ex-racer and I'm just a loud mouth, slow, track day guy.
OEM race kit? Track tires? Assuming the Buell would be afforded those most basic of track day options, there is no question, no doubt whatsoever, no contest, you lose. Mid-Ohio would be a good choice for the track. Too bad HDI put the nix on track riding for EB.
You really need to enter a real race sometime so you can see how much faster a professional racer really is. You ever see the lap times of the 125GP and 250GP leaders versus the MotoGP bikes? Like say for Donnington or Rio or other tighter twisty tracks? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 04:55 am: |
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Jon are you suggesting I'm throwing bait because if you are you're mistaken?
I'm the other side of the Atlantic therefore in the fortunate position, for now at least, to be one of the few people it seems to be able to put their hands on a hard copy of September's Bike tomb.
What I reported back here was in my opinion nothing but bloody credit to Buell. I certainly don't want my arse dragging through the quagmire this thread's become. Best I can tell you is when the naysayers (if there are any) have had their say you'll be happy to know that Bike had the common sense to take out what they called the "remove the emotion" factor from the score card, which favoured the XB above all others, and in so doing (and I'm not about to spoil the read for you when you finally get a copy) you'll be happy beyond belief with the results either way you or anyone else picks them to bits. The XB WON
Thanks for your support.
Rocket |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 05:20 am: |
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The problem with negative surly people is that other folks just won't listen to them.
I had a bad experience with a 1972 Chevy Vega and I am still haunting Chevrolet about it. I think they are just about to cave.
Court |
Tripper
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 08:53 am: |
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Hey Rocket was positive. I knew he really was at heart.
Sean, Still carrying your heat shield proudly on my S1. Considering painting "Rocket from England" on it.
Thanx again. |
Tripper
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 08:56 am: |
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Rocket, where are you relative to London? Planning a trip to UK and Germany in October. |
Dbird29
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 09:00 am: |
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Maybe Cecil/BrianH and the designated Buell stand in can race 1972 Chevy Vega's around the Indy F1`track, or maybe around Laguna or maybe around the new Larry H Miller track in Toole, UT, or maybe the Bonneville Salt Flats.
Because the race track proves everything!
What a stupid argument. |
Daves
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 09:18 am: |
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I'm betting right about now Erik is really sorry he agreed to the "no track" clause in his contract.
I notice Brian, you picked AMA sanctioned track, they tend to be bigger with longer straights than most of the more club level tracks. We are talking about handling here aren't we? Why not make it any track if you are that confident.
You already know that Erik cannot take you up on your challenge so that keeps it safe for you too.
I have a better challenge for you, one that could even happen. You go get your race lic(if you don't have it already, since you are an "instructor" and all)and go to a CCS or Formula USA race with your Honda and race against some Buells. Yep, you might beat some of them, you're a pretty good rider, some of the Buell riders will hand you your a$$.
Sept 9,10and 11th there will be Buells racing at Autobahn race track in Il. I'm doing a track day there on the 8th, you could come to that to learn the track. Whatcha say big boy? |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 09:30 am: |
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Since Bike magazine supposedly made these statements, it seems to me it is up to them to defend their position, or not.
I am totally pleased with how my xb9 handles and if I were riding it vs the Ninja 600 that I sold just before buying the XB, there is no question I could smoke the Ninja.
I simply could not get that bike to go fast in the corners. I have no problem doing that on the XB. Keep in mind I am a total amateur in going fast on motorcycles.
That is sufficient for me! |
Brianh
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 09:40 am: |
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OEM race kit? Track tires? Assuming the Buell would be afforded those most basic of track day options, there is no question, no doubt whatsoever, no contest, you lose. Mid-Ohio would be a good choice for the track. Too bad HDI put the nix on track riding for EB.
Put all the race kits on it that you want and track tires too. Point of the challenge is to prove that the engine doesn't belong in the equation. You can possess the greatest chassis design on the planet, which you obviously feel the XB does, marry it to that engine and you're going backward. Simple.
You really need to enter a real race sometime so you can see how much faster a professional racer really is.
Yea? And you need to ride a real race bike at the track. What does that have to do with my challenge? The fact that I'm not a professional racer should give the Buell an advantage correct? I already said I'm SLOW. You're a "racer" aren't you Blake? Why don't you bring an XB with you? Or heck, bring that amazingly fast M2 of yours.
C'mon, the XB is the fastest cornering bike ever right? So which bike will lap AMA tracks quicker, 2002 F4i or 2006 XB? Barber, Road America, Road Atlanta, VIR? Where would the XB shine most? |
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