| Author | Message | ||
     Jon |
Tramp - "i am awestruck by the amount and ferocity of controversy one buell-friendly magazine piece has caused on the buell boards. a guy on atc is furious that he can't convince everyone else that the ulysses sucks, even though he's (obviously) YET to ride one. what is ahppening around these boards? a magazine gives the thumbs-up to the marque which brought all of us together, and that very compliment is invoking calls for urinalis mortuarius and KTM guys fizzing with rabies at the very thought of an american adventure bike? hey-seuss. let's be happy a buell got such nice press, for once, and let's all hold our judgements for our test-rides. no need for all this anger over a magazine saying nice things about the brand that unites us." The next time you read my mind and then type the words down, I want an honorable mention. | ||
| Midknyte |
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| M1combat |
LOL  . Chop... Those aren't the guys I'm talking about... Yeah, they're wearing red but that's an old Ferrari (from 1998 btw). There's no bleeding edge tech speak going on there and quite frankly that stuff is VERY privileged info. They wouldn't have been talking about bleeding edge innovation in F1 with you anywhere near. The fact that they speak English exclusively when discussing tech innovation and car changes was stated by MS himself during a pre-race interview late last year (I'm thinking Suzuka). Generally, they speak whatever language they like, but when the discussion turns technical and there can be no room for communication error they move to English. (Message edited by m1combat on August 02, 2005) | ||
| Davegess |
One more thing on the BIKE article, I haven't seen it don't know what it says just cool that Buell makes the cover with such a catchy headline. Pretty neat stuff for a tiny company that was flat broke 10 years ago and has gone thru hell and back to get here. | ||
| M1combat |
HA!! LOL... The Scuderia still speaks English in technical conversations damnit . | ||
| Aesquire |
Sv650's ? great little bikes. The guy down the street has one for sale, & I'd buy it in a heartbeat if I had room in the garage. ( and spare cash ) I'm not going to knock them. I've only test ridden a XB9S. It handles better than my Cyclone, stock to stock, & I don't want to admit that to just anyone. It's ever so cool that "Bike" put a Buell in the mag, much less that it wins a "best... in 100 years" ! Erik & the crew at Buell deserve kudo's. | ||
| Xlcr |
Oh, I agree that the SV is a nice little beginner bike. My point is that comparing stock for stock, it's not in the same class as a Buell. Nor, for the price, should it be. This is the point John Burns made in his MO test. Reading over the snippets of actual content from the article, I think there IS a difference between the mathematical calculations they are doing and actual performance on the road. I think what they are really measuring is potentialities. They seem to have proven on paper that the bike had greater potential for maximum corner speed than anything else, though this may not always be obvious to the rider, or show up in lap times. Why not? Well, we have to go back to why sport bikes are designed as they are. The Japanese sport bikes, with a few exceptions, are not designed to be street bikes at all. They are designed to win races first and foremost, and the street compromises are kept to a minimum. This means that they are designed by racing engineers, and because of the nature of their task, racing engineers are inherently conservative. This is why what we are getting from the Japanese every year is NOT innovation, but instead incredimentism. That is, the bikes are only improved in very small steps at a time. Why? Simple. To minimize variables. Sure, give it 2 more HP, shave off 1.5 more lbs, but make no major changes. At the race track, variables are the enemy. You want to go faster than last year, but make major changes and you may find yourself spending half the season just getting back to where you were the year before. Because every variable can easily affect every other variable, and sometimes changes working with other changes can have a huge magnifying effect. So the secret to good race engineering is to change only what you have to, and leave the rest alone, thus minimizing your variables and giving you a reliable baseline from which to start development. So what does this have to do with Buells? Well, in designing the XBs, Erik, I think deliberately, did NOT think like a racing engineer, though he has been one. Instead, he threw the book away and boldly followed his own path, and in so doing, I and many others believe that he created a new standard of motorcycle design. So to go back to Chops original question, what is different? Well, I doubt it has anything to do with paying off the journalists. There are two things, really. One is that when Erik and his staff came up with this fresh design they were charting unknown territory, and leaving themselves with no base line from which to start sorting out the variables. To do this is to in fact make everything a variable, and the time and effort involved in thus maximizing its potential is enormous. Look for an example at the oval piston Honda GP bike of the early '80s. The engineers knew no conventional four-stroke design was going to have a chance at beating the highly developed two-strokes of the day, so they too threw away the book and started from scratch. The result was a disaster that even Honda's money and huge reserves of engineering talent couldn't save. In the end they threw away almost everything they started with except the engine, and they still couldn't get it to work. Just too many variables. SO, in three years time this is what has changed. A baseline for this design is finally becoming apparent, and various people are finally beginning to figure out what works with the bike. This isn't just a matter of set-up either. It also has to do with the way in which the bike is ridden. Many riders do not realize that ALL bikes have handling compromises, and that their riding style is based on the fact they have learned to ride around those compromises, and compensate for them. So part of the reason people did not immediately hail the XB as the ultimate cornering machine, is that to many, they just didn't feel right. Part of that is because they weren't quite right, not yet, the process of sorting through the bikes variables and optimizing them was in a very early stage.The other part is that most riders had learned how to make their conventional bikes work, but their technique didn't work near as well with the totally different Buell. They were compensating for faults the Buell didn't have, and not compensating for problems that did exist, and it understandably made them feel uncomfortable. Now, three years down the line, people are finally seeing around all of that and realizing that Erik did in fact know what he was doing. I've noticed that the Ulysses and Lightning Long don't just have a longer wheelbase, but different front end geometry. That may be intended to make it work better off road, or with long suspension, but the fact the Long has it too makes me think not. I can hardly wait to try a Lightning Long, which WILL be my next bike if I can pull together the money, because I suspect most of the complaints about how Buells feel in a corner will have disappeared. I suspect that with the new design a great many of the formerly unknown variables have been pinned down and optimized. And I, along with many others, suspect that the next new and improved version of the Firebolt will be using this frame and geometry. So what we have then is improvement in two areas, one is that the long and extremely difficult job of sorting the bike out is now almost accomplished, and the other is that riders are learning to adapt to the Buell design and make it work for them. It's no surprise that many of the people that like it right away have not owned a Japanese sport bike first, and many that have come away thinking something on the bike isn't right after their first ride. I suspect they will find the new models to feel much more comfortable right from the start, without the need to spend a long time adapting to them. So what are we really celebrating here? We are celebrating the fact that Bike magazine has proved on paper what most of us knew all along, that the Buell XB really IS a step forward in motorcycle design, and that the potential exists for it to be superior to any conventional design currently known. Now all Erik and his crew have to do is give us that perfectly sorted example that maximizes that potential on the road and on the race track, in a way that everyone can feel on the road, and see on the race track in the form of corner speed and lap times. I suspect, and strongly hope, that bike will be arriving next year. | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..when someone offers to urinate on yer grave..." Do like I used to do when I was a Master At Arms in the Navy, remind them that they would probably have to stand in line and wait their turn. Deep in my heart, I knew that when they started throwing lines like that around, I had already won the argument. Jack | ||
| Sarodude |
Can we end this debate already? You like Buells? You think Buell makes a good handling bike? You maybe think Buell makes the BEST handling bike? BUY ONE! You don't like Buells? You think Buells handle like crap? You think the BEST HANDLING BIKE award is a sham? Take confidence in your knowledge and ride on. Truth does not need to be beaten in. It generally stands on its own. Enjoy whatever it is you ride! -Saro | ||
| M1combat |
"Can we end this debate already? " Why Saro? If you don't like it you can just not participate... Oh, and I do enjoy whatever it is that I ride  . I rode a bent up SV650 the other day... Enjoyed every minute of it. My right hand was NUMB by the time I got it to my place because the right bar was bent forward about 30 degrees or so, but I had a good time... | ||
| Tramp |
Jon said: "The next time you read my mind and then type the words down, I want an honorable mention" done  | ||
| Jon |
M1combat, Saro has an opinion that is sane and needed in this thread. Yes, there is a cut-off point for drumbeating, but not for discussion. | ||
| M1combat |
I agree . I just don't agree that we should stop the discussion . | ||
| Benm2 |
Damm right M1. The topics on this board (and others I suspect) that get the most attention are those where people argue. To hill with those who ask "why can't we all just get along"? Argument, dissent, disagreement, and even war have often brought out the BEST in people, as far as inventiveness & technology are concerned. Competition BREEDS success. I suppose that's why Buell has always maintained a focus on racing. I mean, the Buell website STILL has a distinct classification for racing news, even if their not at "top level". ALL racing is good, and club level support can still provide a wealth of information regarding potential product upgrades. Buell, I suspect, knows this. Is the XB the best handling bike? Who the hell knows. If BIKE has arrived at some magic formula that allows it to be calculated, then the reason there are none on the shelves is 'cause Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki have bought all the copies. Regardless of data, its still "feel" based to some degree. Add in race prep & setup, and ALL bets are off. A good suspension setup (NOT STOCK) on any bike MUST improve its handling (Don't know for sure myself, still all stock & not fast nuff to know the diffrence). So, comparing race bikes & lap times is ultimately moot anyway. The XB DOES come stock with some pretty nice hardware, though. \quote(Throughout the industrial age the Japanese have been VERY good at copying things. They have NOT, however, been good at innovation. That comes from America. The Italians have been good at refinement. That's still not innovation. That typically comes from the US. ) Um, who patented the exhaust valve that Buell uses? I imagine any Buell engineer / enthusiast in Japan is cursing your name. Engineers like to create, the limitations come from "upstairs". You, of all people, should understand that. You certainly seem like the "outspoken" type. "The man" is everywhere, stifling creativity as its risky. Buell throw's all that crap out the window, and is willing to take chances. Great! But please don't denigrate the efforts of engineers in ANY other country. They are JUST like you and me. | ||
| Blake |
So now we have politics? Or is it sociology?  Best cornering bike in the world ever. How cool is that? It's about time we had something besides "fastest bike in the world" to celebrate. | ||
| Benm2 |
Blake? Shying away from politics? That's disengenuous! | ||
| Benm2 |
Are you kidding? You're going to give me a hard time? In the past you've posted "In case you haven't noticed, I LIKE to argue" Any color you want, as long as its Blake?  | ||
| Blake |
Arguing for the sake of argument has never appealed to me. I like there to be some exchange of actual information and ideas, a bit of learning in the search for truth. See, now you know a little more about me. | ||
| M2me |
Best cornering bike in the world ever. How cool is that? It's about time we had something besides "fastest bike in the world" to celebrate. But isn't that why all the hoopla is a little unseemly? Don't most Buell enthusiasts sneer at all the "HP shootouts" that the bike magazines run? The argument that Buell enthusiasts usually use is, "That's great if you only want to ride in a straight line!" Well now we finally have a "cornering shootout" and it looks like Buell is the winner! That's great but didn't we know that already? Muffler mounted underneath, mass centralization, etc. There's nothing really new here. Cecil from SacBORG has spoken and he has proclaimed, "That's great if all you want to do is ride in circles!" I think Cecil is just as right as those who complain about the HP shootouts. My point is that everyone should buy the bike they want. These "best of" and "best ever" magazine articles are interesting and informative to read but they are not the end all and be all of a motorcycle purchasing decision. | ||
| Frausty12r |
If you want speed, get something with four wheels, it's always been my interpretation that two wheel vehicles were meant to be more maneuverable (does that mean... corners?) like.. a McLaren F1 (228 verified 245mph theoretical/untested) Or if you can find a Chrysler ME412 (Mid engine quad turbo-intercooled 12cyl) (theoretical 265 mph top speed) Hasn't anyone learned? Excessive speed causes increased heart rate, increased adrenaline... wait.. so does cornering at high speeds.. Want best cornering? get a buell Kudos to BMC for engineering what others never thought of... first use of inverted forks, first to think outside the box "low unsprung weight", first to use an insideout ZTL braking system... I smell intelligence. (I know theres some more firsts out there.. just late and can't htink of em right now.) | ||
| Davegess |
BTW all the stuff from the article I post is pure BS. I made it up. How can we argue about something we have not seen? Me I can't wait to read it, should be fun | ||
| Jon |
It's true that the contents of the article has not been posted or even read. The point of this thread is a simple celebration for BIKE declaration. As the article becomes known, we can add to this thread. If there will be further debate (duh!) then I hope it is without flicking boogers, lit matches, etc at those of opposing opinions. (Message edited by Jon on August 03, 2005) | ||
| Rocketman |
Hey Blake I didn't post the PB stuff to get a debate going. I posted it because my first comment in this thread included this sentence...... After all what would be the point in comparing a 2005 XB Buell against any motorcycle built in for example 1905? Maybe that's a clue as to the Bike magazine test meaning something otherwise The PB article could suggest there's more involved in Bikes testing to find the best cornering bike ever made - given 100 years gets us somewhere near inflatable tyre technology give or take a decade or two. That's why I offered up PB's findings without adding any comment of my own as their findings appear to be in contrast to Bike magazines. If the XB is as Bike says it is then that's all great. To me it is one thing less for Buell to put in place. I still want more power though. That's something most of us can exploit at will. Superior cornering isn't - but me personally I'll take both if it's on offer. That's why I've taken to my 916 so well. Anyway back to the Bike thing. After your text message Blake then seeing your post here I wasn't sure if you were pulling an April fools type joke or not even though the cover shots look (are?) authentic. So here's the deal. A Buell internet discussion board owner living in deep Texas has a copy of an unobtanium British published motorcycle magazine yet you haven't told anyone the contents never mind the basic fiber of what's in the test involving the XB12R. That's all well and good if the cover speak says it all - but no one else has read the article itself other than you it seems. Meanwhile veiled threats of gun crime and graveyard mayhem abound. Friendships are seemingly broken because of this nonsense. So many of you all could have done so much better. So Blake, to redeem yourself fess up and tell where you got this magazine that's not yet for sale in Britain never mind the US. Dave you just about had me with your first post. Even the Manx was convincing given their resurgence in modern classic bike racing. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
Ben ... I don't mean to put down Japanese engineers at ALL... quite the contrary. They have proven themselves VERY adept at taking (and I don't mean that in a negative way) an idea and engineering it to perfection. They just don't typically innovate like Americans do. The Europeans are like that as well. I'm not saying that they are in-capable, it's just that they tend to be able to look at an idea and find better ways to implement it. Americans have historically been the most likely to come up with completely new/different stuff. Again, I'm not saying anyone else is in-capable, just in my view of history (particularly since the industrial revolution) I've found that more often than people of other nationalities, Americans tend to make completely new stuff. It's just three different directions of engineering. All three are just as important as each other. As far as the exhaust valve... They don't use it "quite" like Buell does. Also, I seem to remember that the old Hot-Rodders from just before/after WWII would use a manually operated implementation of that in drag racing. Maybe they finally made a rule against it? I don't know. I'm quite sure that the engineers that came up with the exhaust system took the basis of their idea from the Exup valves sure , We need to refine and perfect stuff too. | ||
| Blake |
Rocket, I can't tell you amigo. It's a secret. I do trust the source though. | ||
| Jon |
El Rockeeto, Yeah, graveyard mayhem...do you believe it?! I have never seen that one before, and I've seen a lot of flame wars. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Fraust: Are you saying Buell was the first to use inverted forks or are you saying they invented them? Either one is false. Blake: So you want to know how many SV's have won an FUSA supersport race? The same as the number of M2's: Zero. No one has ever run an SV in an FUSA Sportbike race, to the best of my knowledge. When did an XB win an FUSA Sportbike race? Vik | ||
| Xlcr |
Oh, get over it! That 'gaveyard mayhem' you are referring to was simply a old figure of speech signifying contempt. If you go back to that post, you will see it has been corrected to make it impossible to misunderstand. Oh, and Mr. Master at Arms, I never lose arguments, because to lose, first you have to concede, and I've never conceded to anyone. Of course, I've never had to worry about anyone pulling rank on me either. | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
I believe the magazine "should" be on the UK news stands today (3rd August). Steve www.shs-consulting.co.uk | ||
| Drfuyutsuki |
I actually heard this uttered in my office yesterday, followed quickly by someone asking "What the hell is a Buell?" hehehe |
