| Author | Message | ||
     Davegess |
At last I have managed to score an early copy of the BIKE magazine story naming Buell the best cornering motorcycle and I must say I am impressed by the amount of work they did. I was expecting a totally subjective, limited evidence story but they surprised me. 50 bikes were tested including several classics that have a reputation for good handling, bikes like the Norton Manx and some real odd balls. They came up with a clever way to handle the tire differences by running each tire on a tire dyno and setting a maximum grip number. Then they hooked up telemetry stuff on each bike and ran them through a track a various speeds. By recording the bikes reactions to various things like bumps and changes and traction, multiplying by the maximum grip number they determined how close to the edge each bike was able to get and at what speed they got there. They used recorded lean angles, slide, tire temperature, slip angles, speed and normalized for the riders height and weight. Then they used a algorithm that Michelin developed for tire development and calculated the bikes “maximized cornering speed profile” and used this to determine the winner. The real surprise is not that the XB won but that the Norton cracked the top 10 beating the Mille. Even more amazing the scooter they test was not dead last but in the top half! Pretty amazing stuff. | ||
| M1combat |
"so far, to my reverse question... we have one person who thinks the XB is the best cornering bike ever. And seems to be backed up by other Buell fans, two moto rags and a few other professionals. In your camp you've got one guy saying it's not as good as his 999R. Well... I'm not exactly sure that a bike like that would be included in the "road bikes" test but it IS a "road" bike so maybe... If it is... :P. We've got one more saying it's not as good as his Aprilia Mille. Well... I propose you are intimately familiar with your Mille and you are not intimately familiar with the XB. As far as people who I know own both... One says the Mille is better, one likes the XB. Soooo, When it's all boiled down... We have moto rags and professionals in our camp... You don't. You two keep pointing out your OWN experience (or lack thereof when it comes to an XB) yet you both seem to think that the experience of people who do this for a living is "overly optimistic". I still say you are way behind the moto journo's for now, and are overly pessimistic. Of the two... Pessimistic is certainly safer. I can't fault you for that, but I know something you don't  . | ||
| Choptop |
ahhh, so it had nothing to do with feel, personal preference... it came down to a math problem. fair enough... kinda seems like using a calculator to come up with who is the most beautiful girl in the world... kinda misses the point. M1, there are lots of people you think the XB aint the best cornering bike ever. So far we've got one here that says so, and you havent even said the same. | ||
| Rubberdown |
mmmm, don't ya'll wanna go out and just ride your bikes? Just go and enjoy what ya ride, Most of this just seems like so much just intellectual masturbation. | ||
| Davegess |
More tidbits from the article; By calculating the actual lean angle versus the possible lean angle for the tire and the bike they came up a “reserve cornering vector” that allowed them to calculate the ability to change lines mid corner. They used this with something called “traction equivalent” rate how close to the actual limit any bike was at any moment. | ||
| M1combat |
"it came down to a math problem. fair enough... " Everything is a math problem... Just an FYI... Michael Schumacher doesn't come up with his own setups. A computer does. He learns how to drive the car to it's limits, a computer sets the car up so that it has the greatest limits . Sounds like a winner to me  . | ||
| M1combat |
Thanks Dave for posting that . I don't suppose you could scan the article? I would buy one I assure you but I've already called all the book stores in town and checked Amazon. I can't get a copy of the mag... | ||
| Choptop |
No Rubberdown, as explained by AAP, i think Blake said his name is Greg, actually riding and comparing the bikes means nothing. Your opinion as to what you like best means nothing.  The experts have spoken. | ||
| M1combat |
"Your opinion as to what you like best means nothing. " That is an ENTIRELY ACCURATE STATEMENT when you are talking about racing. | ||
| Xlcr |
Chop, I said I'd give you a reply and did, but I was in a bit of a rage at the time, cooler heads prevailed, and the post was deleted. For the best, I suppose. Still, I did say I'd reply, so I decided to severely edit the post and remove all of the offensive parts to see if I could get it past the censors this time. Here it is: (don't call again) | ||
| Choptop |
No worries XLCR, yer off my speed dail list (joke). Understandable though, when someone offers to urinate on yer grave, its usaully best to find out if they intend to put you in it as well. hence our little chat. | ||
| Choptop |
M1, stop it, you are starting to embarras yourself. | ||
| Xlcr |
I have edited that post, and it now reflects my literal meaning. | ||
| Choptop |
Point taken. | ||
| Xlcr |
John Burns said it best when he said, "the SV650 is the kind of bike that you will find in a few years ratty and scratched up, with a milk crate on the back and a seat that smells like cat pee". Why even bother to compare a premium bike like the Buell with a cheap disposable piece of Japanese junk like the Suzuki? Out on the street, where it matters, the Suzook's cheap, miserable suspension makes it bound around on the bumps like a pogo stick when guys over 200 lbs, like me, try to ride one. Yeah, they build to a price. But hey, I have no quarrel with what the Japanese charge for their bikes. After all, they build them. They ought to know what they are really worth. | ||
| Bomber |
scuze me gents -- I think I've missed something here -- this thread (which has a fairly hefty number of posts) is about a piece that's declared a winner in the motorcycling handling sweepstakes through an equation? please tell me I'm wrong -- I mean, as Blake will attest, I like a spirited difference of opinions as much as the next guy, but . . . . . | ||
| Davegess |
And still more; The biggest find in the BIKE article is that if you calculate the “projected cornering vector” versus the spring rate of the forks and then factor in the “oscillation curve” of the sprung versus unsprung ratio you can quickly predict the actual speed though any given corner as long as you have the “potential tire coefficient”, the surface coefficient of friction (which you get by using a device called a Mueller Pavement Co-resonator which is used by highway engineers to test for the correct surface finish on concrete), and know the “resonance factor” for the riders handle bar input. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Wow. I love my 9sx, but I would not go ripping on SV-650's like that. For the price, you can't beat 'em. To say they are junk is absurd. The SV650 is a great bike. I don't think I could get an SV-650 to work nearly as well as my 9sx for anywhere *near* the price difference of the two bikes, so in my mind the 9sx is a far better choice. I also see tons of people (including a buddy with an SV-650 and another buddy I am trying to talk into buying one) that will not push their streetbike to the limits where the difference between the bikes is that significant. They just have no interest in pushing a streetbike particularly hard, and don't want to do the cruiser thing. The SV-650 a good naked standard, built for a very affordable price, with decent upgrade potential. | ||
| M1combat |
"M1, stop it, you are starting to embarras yourself." Maybe... but maybe you just don't see my point. The pilot adapts to the machine. That's the fast way. You take any vehicle and it has a certain level of capability. You tune it so that it's capable of reaching that level or as close as you can get. Then, you learn to ride it. You don't adapt it to suit your style... You adapt the technique so that the technique is capable of extracting everything possible from the machine. Did you read my post above about MS and the fact that he does not design his own setups? He allows the computer to do so and then learns how to drive the car with the setup that the computer says is fastest. He's a seven time champion (no one else has ever achieved more than five)... I'm not arguing with him or Ferrari about "best practice". Granted... There are certainly things that you want to engineer around like wobbles etc... You engineer toward favorable characteristics and away from un-favorable ones. It's all a compromise of course, and everyone has different tools to work with (flywheel inertia, power, CG, geometry etc...). Throughout the industrial age the Japanese have been VERY good at copying things. They have NOT, however, been good at innovation. That comes from America. The Italians have been good at refinement. That's still not innovation. That typically comes from the US. Why can't you see that Erik Buell and his team of engineers ARE smarter than their competition? I think it's because you haven't given the XB a fair shake. Fine, so you're a Buell enthusiast. Great. Thanks for that. Now... Put your money where your mouth is and drink some kool-aid. You'll never know what it REALLY tastes like unless you DO that. There's a new flavor my friend . It'll wash the old sour (to you apparently) taste right out of your mouth. Just get to know it. For YOU... being an avid Aprilia lover... It'll be an acquired taste. Give it a shot. Do you know why the Scuderia (Ferrari F1) speak ONLY English when the topic is technical? So they can speak EXACTLY like this Bike magazine seems to be speaking. Why does Ferrari trust their Super Computer to tell them how to win races and you think it's all a bunch of hog-wash because the XB "didn't feel right to you"? You'll see. Everything is about physics. If physics says that something IS... then it IS. If it doesn't feel right to you, that's just your perception. Learn how to adapt so that it DOES feel right to you. You'll be a better rider for it I assure you. Why do you suppose real champions can get on anything and be fast? It's because they can adapt . | ||
| Choptop |
ya mean these guys? funny, I didnt hear a whole lot of english when I was hanging out with them... maybe i missed something.  | ||
| Blake |
The pollution of an upbeat celebratory topic continues. <sigh>
To be perfectly honest, you sound like a complete jackass. Trust me on this Alan, no one here has any delusions that a superbike is not faster around a track than a Buell XB. No one here saw fit to respond to Rocket's post as you described. That post was no news to us. So please cease the baiting and disingenuous confrontational crap. It is beneath you. And why do you dodge all my questions? That is simply rude and inconsiderate. You are wrong again. An SV has never won in FUSA Sportbike. Yes SV's have won and compete well in FUSA "Thunderbike" a HP/weight limited class. But I specifically said "FUSA Sportbike" as in 600cc repliracers. Virtually right out of the box, the Buell XB9R won the FUSA National Sportbike race at Loudan, NH. I posted a link. Oh, and the Buell racer that day, one Eric Wood, also beat one Michael Barnes who was racing his Suzuki GSXR600. Alan, As to my bike, LOL, if I were racing an XB9 or XB12, I would not have to invest near as much compared to what I wanted to put into my 1997 Cyclone. The XB stock suspension is good to go with some $70 of race springs, maybe a couple hundred for revalving the forks, a $600 race kit from Buell, and a belly pan, and I'm all set. Such a bike would compete well against most SV's in club racing. Such a bike won the FUSA National Challenge endurance series. So where is all the "tens of thousands" needed to go racing on an XB? How much do you think David Yaakov or Ed Keys have into their SV650 racing machines? Less than Dave Estok or Brian Bemisderfer have into their Buells? Sorry, I don't see it. I don't believe that you do either, on account of it ain't real. And to be clear, I didn't need to purchase all the upgrades listed, in fact I have yet to race with the new rear shock and the Gold Valve fork valving. I sure didn't need the $3K in engine work either. I could have easily got by with a lot less and still had a great time racing. But I wanted to be able to enter some higher speed classes like UL GP and such, so some added power was needed. But again, please show me an SV that has won in FUSA "Sportbike" like the XB9R has. As to the BIKE and Performance Bikes actual test results and conclusions...
  | ||
| Tramp |
i am awestruck by the amount and ferocity of controversy one buell-friendly magazine piece has caused on the buell boards. a guy on atc is furious that he can't convince everyone else that the ulysses sucks, even though he's (obviously) YET to ride one. what is ahppening around these boards? a magazine gives the thumbs-up to the marque which brought all of us together, and that very compliment is invoking calls for urinalis mortuarius and KTM guys fizzing with rabies at the very thought of an american adventure bike? hey-seuss. let's be happy a buell got such nice press, for once, and let's all hold our judgements for our test-rides. no need for all this anger over a magazine saying nice things about the brand that unites us. | ||
| Choptop |
I don't believe that you do either, on account of it ain't real. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The offer stands... if you think its not real, call Terry at Vallejo HD/Buell and ask him how much $ is in their bike to make it competitive with the SV's and RVF400 that run in the same class. 707-643-1413 | ||
| Blake |
Berating any specific model of motorcycle is juvenile in my book. Life is too short to focus on the negative. Obstinately refusing to recognize the real and significant innovation and achievement by Buell, seeking instead to deny it, even insult it is certainly no better. I don't get it. Buell figures out a way to drop 8 LBs from the front wheel/brake of a sport bike and some folks feel the need to berate that achievement. I don't get it. Two prominent motorcycle magazines perform scientifically based real world testing and conclude that the XB12R is the best cornering bike, but some feel the need to crap on that too. I don't get it. Why not simply applaud Buell's achievements and accolades in the press? Something about that really threatens some folks. Sad stuff.  | ||
| Blake |
Ah, the singular example to "prove" your point. I will call Vallejo and ask for a tally of their investment. However, what Vallejo saw fit to invest in their bike is not the conclusive evidence in this issue. The contention was that one must spend tens of thousands to get a Buell competitive in club racing. That is simply not true. It sure isn't true for me in the CMRA. I doubt it's even true for many of the competitors in FUSA Thunderbike. But hey, I wouldn't want to ruin your naysayer's fest here on a Buell Enthusiasts' board. But the topic is one of congratulating Buell for winning the Best Cornering Bike evaluation at BIKE Magazine, and also at Performance Bikes Magazine. No congratulations from you though, just naysaying. I don't get it. It must be pretty sad to feel like you must poo-poo the achievements of others. I don't get that. Congrats to Buell for engineering the Best Cornering Bike of All Time!  | ||
| Tramp |
Exactly. can't we celebrate our 'common' brand's newfound adulation? we should all be enthusiatic for that  .. I'm personally elated for the accolades, regardless of what my seat-o-the-pants testride tells me. like i say, this weird sour-grapes anti-buell hocus-pocus is on the other boards, too | ||
| Blake |
Alan, You sure do like to dodge the tough points. Sounds like "debate for debate's sake", I'm not big into that. Recognizing and addressing the valid points of others in a debate is common courtesy. | ||
| Cowboy |
To Blake well said, and by the way while I am posting will there be any more races at oak hill this yr, I would like to come up once more before fall. thanks in advance . Cowboy | ||
| Tramp |
there seems to ba lot of that 'debate for debate's sake' going around on the boards, these days...  | ||
| Davegess |
One question the article was not able to answer, and they really tried. They used poteniometers, EKG's, load cells, a host of stuff yet at the end of the day this question lays unanswered and throws the results in question.... how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?  |
