| Author | Message | ||
     Midknyte |
Ok, once and for all, please explain this "difference"... Four times, in as many days, and by as many people, in threads and prognostications, proclamations and/or recognition is given to the different nature of the XB's: Spatten1, ...Good for you Jason. The specs will never convince anyone to try a Buell. All it takes is one ride to understand how different they are and now well they work... Xlcr, ...in three years time this is what has changed. A baseline for this design is finally becoming apparent, and various people are finally beginning to figure out what works with the bike. This isn't just a matter of set-up either. It also has to do with the way in which the bike is ridden...So what we have then is improvement in two areas, one is that the long and extremely difficult job of sorting the bike out is now almost accomplished, and the other is that riders are learning to adapt to the Buell design and make it work for them... Blake, ...They still talk about the different way the XBs handle... Eeeeek, ...Some others talked about how the Buell gives so much more torques that it takes a much different riding style than the other bikes... My XB9R is my second bike. My first being a smaller, beginner bike, of similar dimensions. I had some difficulties in getting used to the XB that I had chalked up to limited experience and the fact that the XB is "not" a beginner bike, therefore less forgiving of mistakes, requiring refinement of my riding skills & habits, and building new muscle memories for the new bike. Realizing this, I took a step back and set a new goal for myself to relax and simply become as good and comfortable on the XB as I was my old bike. And I am there. Next season/year, I'll work on new boundries, but for now I'm just [very much] enjoying this new machine. But this brings me back to "differences". What the hell is so different about the XB? And is this mythical difference the stepping stone I encountered? Or not? Please relate these differences back to other bikes and how & why they make the XB better. Either by riding style or mechanical advantage. etc. Thanks! Please note, this is not an invitation for arguments. I want to learn more about how to ride this particular bike. Not to quibble merits of design or that it really is not better than other bikes. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I hope this helps, it is my perspective: Package: sportbike with a Harley engine- that is WAY different. Engine: V-Twin is torquier at low RPMs and feels like a Harley as opposed to V-twin sportbikes that have more power but are higher reving and make most of their power at higher revs. Chassis: Very high-end frame and suspension. Small and light feeling. Less forgiving of sloppy inputs than a typical Japanese chassis, but handle great and stable once you are set-up. Having a Harley Engine in a package this light and nimble is really a very different bike than any other. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Also, look at the wheelbase specs compared to other production bikes, the chassis is designed with different concepts than any other, and feels different. How's that for justifying the word different? | ||
| Fdl3 |
Ah, interesting question! For me, my riding style changed on my XB9R due to the nature of the XB motor. Because the XB motor makes good low-end torque, I find that I ride with a more relaxed style, relying on the torque to give me the power I want. So I short-shift and "spurt" around town because the torque (power) is available pretty much anywhere in the lower RPM range. It is street riding afterall... Contrast this to a bike with a motor that doesn't have as much low-end torquiness, but has high-end horsepower (power). On this kind of bike, I tend to ride with a much more frenetic style. I ride each gear to a higher RPM (maybe even to redline) to get to the power. No short-shifting here, and I tend to "wail" around town. Perfect for the track, not so perfect on the street... If you are used to having to rev a bike to get to the power, then I think the XB proves to be a real adjustment. Some people can adjust, some people can't adjust, some people won't adjust. Those that can't/won't adjust often complain of: 1. Having to short-shift because the redline on the XB is usually more than half as low from what they are accustomed. So the mindset is "if I can't rev as high as I normally do on X bike, then the XB must not have enough power". 2. Having a sense that the XB cannot go as fast as X bike because the motor is not revving that high. Usually, people are quite surprised at how fast they really are going on an XB. Just my thoughts... | ||
| Madsx |
They're pantie droppers  | ||
| Midknyte |
Shifting, ah yes. My old bike was a 250 twin with a [typical metric] 12,000 redline, so I was winding it out thru this rev range and shifting a lot more. Much more forgiving in the ability to let the clutch out quick as there was a broad rpm spread to gobble it up. It still takes a concious effort not to downshift into/thru a turn on the XB. | ||
| Edmsportster |
I am picking up my first Buell next week (can't wait) I am currently on an '04 sportster and I would assume that my "learning curve" on the Buell will be less than someone coming from the sport bike scene? | ||
| Tomd |
Edm, Your learning curve may be higher coming from the sporty world. Most Sportsters are happy to thump along in the 1800 to 2400 RPM range, Buell 12's are happier in the 2500-3500 range. (I don't own a 9 but I would think they like it a bit higher) The cornering is vastly different. If yours is a stock sporty you may get the same experience I got when I hopped on my first XB. It feels super light flopping it side to side, it feels like your sitting on top of the front wheel, it turns so hard you may feel like it's going to screw itself into the ground the first time you turn it and the front brake will feel too powerful. Of course, now when I hop on my stock sporty, it feels as heavy as my dresser, it feels like it's as long as a train, and it won't corner or stop at all. You may notice the same feelings if you hop back and forth between the 2 bikes. Find some less traveled roads and get used to the new bike before venturing into hostile places like the city on a Friday night or pushing your new toy hard into corners. Tom | ||
| M1combat |
Edm - Read "Total Control" by Lee Parks. You can pick it up at B&N for about $20. It could very well save your life. depending on your current skill level it could help make you a lot faster on the sporty as well. Once you get done with that, if you want more, go get "Twist of the Wrist I and II" by Keith Code. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh, and I pretty much agree with Tomd... I think your learning curve will be much higher. You'll need to learn how to hang off and a host of other new techniques. Also... Be CAREFUL with the front brake at first... | ||
| Edmsportster |
LOL thanks guys...I took the Buells out last weekend at the demo rides here and I realize that have a lot to learn about riding the Buells. just about put the back tire over my head the first time i hit the front brakes. THIS AIN'T YO' SPORTY ANYMORE •••••••! lol I am hoping to meet some fellow Buelligans here in Edmonton, but I have only seen 4 or 5 Buells in town over the last year or two... Thanks for the book recommendation M1...I will pick it up if I can find it up here in Canada..no B & N up here. | ||
| Fullpower |
i disagree with the premise that an XB is difficult to ride. i put my 14 year old son on my XB12. he did not have any problems riding it.  | ||
| Midknyte |
Also... Be CAREFUL with the front brake at first... Uh, yeah on that. A panic grab in a turn will have you feeling like your riding a squirel on roller skates. And along that same analogy, you'll be spending some time waiting for your nuts to drop back down | ||
| Gowindward |
"i disagree with the premise that an XB is difficult to ride." Amen! | ||
| Xring |
Not difficult...it just feels different. Kind of like a big dirt bike. Took me a couple of months and 1000 miles to start trusting the grip of the front tire. I can see this bike has more balls than I do on the street. I'm lovin' every minute of it, especially with the new Syncs. Oh yeah, second M1's motion on Lee Parks' book. Good luck, Bill (Message edited by xring on August 03, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
It is indeed not difficult to ride, but it's certainly a learning curve away from a Sporty (If you're interested in extracting anything close to it's potential anyway...) | ||
| Edmsportster |
All I can say is after riding the Buells at the demo rides (2006 XB12Ss, City X, and yes the Ulysses) My sporty felt like BOAT going home lol | ||
| Elff |
I came from a Honda CBR600RR Here are the differences I noted Stiffer clutch and transmission compared to a japanese bike Loads of low end power these 2 combined make for some interesting take offs until you realize how to use them properly. These two also required me to feather the clutch waaaaay more in slow speed turns than you do on a japanese bike at slow speeds. Low end power makes the amount of shifting, especialy in twisties less. More of just wrist twisting Handling was much quicker especially the initial turn in. I almost low sided my first sharp fast turn. I learned to back off and ease into it more. Front brake is ridiculously powerful and the rear brake is almost non existent. Braking and turning is pretty darn predictable and only 2 fingers are necessary. Squeeze lightly or raise the rear wheel | ||
| Xlcr |
It's not that it's difficult, it's just that it has an overall different feel, and for some it takes time to find their 'comfort zone'. Some complain about it's habit of standing up under trail braking. There are a few things that help. One is trying different brands of tire, another is just using the front brake more going in and trying not to be so dependent on trail braking. Some say the whole purpose of trail braking anyway not just to slow down more, but to 'settle' the bike going into the corner. The truth is, most Japanese sport bikes will get a little squirrelly and develop head shake if you push too hard into a turn, in contrast the Buell is very stable, so far, I haven't gotten one to shake its head on me. I've mentioned elsewhere that on the two new models they have changed the front end geometry and the wheelbase, and I'm very curious to know how that has affected the handling. I suspect that they have probably eliminated this quirk. I STILL haven't received my copy of CW in the mail, but I think someone said the testers didn't notice this problem with the Ulysses. Perhaps someone fortunate enough to have the new issue could enlighten us. Meanwhile, I'm eagerly awaiting my chance to ride a new Lightning Long. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Mellow power and razor sharp handling is what makes Buells so different. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The MSF puts out a book (I think I got it at Barnes and Noble) that mirrors the content of their advanced rider course. Sorry I can't remember the name. That would probably be a better entry book then twist of the wrist or total control. Read it first, then get the other. Any of our MSF friends here... can you give us an amazon link to the book? | ||
| Blake |
My take based on first hand experience... First, the Buell XB's with their 52 inch wheelbase and aggressive rake/trail are so very much more responsive to steering inputs than any other bike I've ever ridden, including 600cc repliracers, 750cc Ducatis, and liter class superbike street bikes. Consider steering response. The same steering input that on a typical sport bike gets the bike leaned over smoothly/calmly in preparation for a turn, will on an XB so violently roll the bike over that it is beyond disconcerting. It can be frightening. You can literally launch yourself off the bike if you are not familiar with the sharp steering response of the XB's. I've experienced this first hand. I can tell you that my race prepped Buell Cyclone has similar even superior steering response compared to modern repli-racer street bikes. How much more responsive is the steering of a Buell XB? Maybe relating one of my experiences with the steering response of an XB will give you an idea. When I first had the chance to really ride an XB, I was gung-ho and eager to put it through its paces. Without thinking too much, I jumped on the bike and proceeded to use the same aggressive steering input that I had found worked well for both my Cyclone and for modern repli-racer street bikes. Big mistake! The reaction to my aggressive steering input to the XB was so violent it threw my left foot clean off of its perch on the footpeg and left my butt askew hanging partially off the seat. It scared the dickens outa me! I mean SCARED me, bad! If not for the inherent stability of the bike, I might have suffered more than an unwelcome adrenalin rush. I equate the difference in steering response between a Buell XB and more conventional sport bikes to the difference in going from an old-fashioned front drum brake to a full-on race disk brake setup. The XB's steering response is that much quicker. It is hard to imagine. Thankfully most who test ride an XB for the first time are not so foolish or heavy-handed with their steering. Caution can be a good thing.  The lightning (pun intended ) quick steering response is a good thing, just as modern disk brakes are a good thing; each can take some getting used to. Second, the ZERO drivetrain slop is something totally new for conventional sport bike riders. It is a good thing, once you get used to it, but it is different, and different requires adjustment to habits ingrained over years of riding conventionally driven sport bikes. Gone is the brief pause between throttle and rear wheel when getting on or off the throttle. Now it is instantaneous. It's a good thing. But it's different too and for some "different" takes some time to become acustomed to. Third, and as already mentioned by some above, the low revving American V-Twin plays a big factor. When a rider is more used to the typical IL4 engine emitting a high pitched turbine-like whine, even screaming as engine speed climbs, it can be very difficult for him/her to reconcile that the low, calm (by comparison) thrum of the big Buell V-Twin could possibly be propelling the bike at an aggressive pace through the turns. The big Buell engine just isn't anxious and hurried sounding like an IL4 ripping out four times the exhaust pulses at twice the engine speed. Even running at the same engine speed as a Buell twin, an IL4 sounds like it is turning twice as fast. Watch a Superbike race, even on TV, and close your eyes. When the bikes go by at a race pace 13K+ rpm, the screaming IL4 literbikes sound as if they are tearing a hole through the space-time continuum, while the growling Ducati twins by comparison sound like they are moving at half speed. Thus the mind can be tricked by a slow sounding/revving engine into perceiving that the motorcycle must also be moving less quicly. Interestingly, this phenomenen may also explain the difference in perception versus reality when some riders claim that they feel that other more convetional bikes perform better (negotiate more quicly) through the turns. The converse of the effect mentioned above is true too, and I've experienced it first hand. When I swapped bikes at the track with my CBR600 riding buddy, I initially found it VERY difficult to carry speed into the turns. That darn 600cc IL4 engine screaming like a banshee instilled in me the clear impression that I was moving must faster than was reality. I found myself entering the turns WAY to slowly. In the 15 or so laps that I ran on the CBR600, I never did get used to the screaming engine. So I suppose the same must be true of folks who climb aboard a Buell for the first time. So all of the above, sharper steering response, zero backlash drivetrain, and the low revving V-Twin combine to provide a very very unconventional sport bike experience, one that for those used to more conventional sport bikes can initially be very disconcerting. It surely must take some significant time in the saddle to become accustomed to the unconventional handling and behavior of a Buell XB. It would undoubtedly take even longer before one more accustomed to conventional sport bikes could begin to truly exploit the handling performance of a Buell XB Lightning or Firebolt. Add the more forward oriented ergonomics, the heavier clutch pull and different front brake feel to the mix of my above comments. Those are my firsthand observations. It ain't just a corporate slogan is it ... "Different" may feel like "bad or worse" where in reality it indeed may be "good and better". (Message edited by blake on August 10, 2005) | ||
| Metalstorm |
My 99' Sporty prepared me for the Buell in all the best ways. A.) It got me used to the 45 degree push rod V-Twin. Now I can not imagine riding a bike that doesn't have one. B.) The Sporty's clutch lever made my left hand immensely strong. The clutch pull of my 12S is like pulling on nothing but thin air compared to the Sporty. C.) After riding the heavy Sporty aggressively in the twisties, grinding peg on the left & pipe on the right, I feel like I'm a surgeon on the XB. D.) After spending the last 6 years enduring oil bag burn from the Sporty, I find that the heat that comes up from the Buell ain't so bad. E.) The Sporty got me used to a 6K rev limit. | ||
| Brewtus |
The XB9 is my first bike ever, and my salesman even told me "I wouldn't recommend this bike to learn on. It's either going to make you a very skilled rider, or a very under skilled rider. BUT if you want it that bad, I'll sell it to you and recommend a MSF class." I do have the Lee Parks book and it has helped me tremendously, but what can I expect going from the XB9 to let's say a Suzuki GSXR? | ||
| Chainsaw |
B.) The Sporty's clutch lever made my left hand immensely strong... Sporty is my first bike too. Every time I read some blurb about the "heavy" clutch pull on the XB's I laugh and think the writer is a sissy! | ||
| Xring |
Blake: I forgot about getting used to the the zero-lash final drive. It was quite a revelation 4 months ago, now I take it for granted. Chainsaw: I read all the gripes about the heavy clutch pull, kind of had me worried. ??? I think it is pleasant. My old 650 Yamaha was worse. Bill | ||
| Tomd |
Hi, My XB has a heavy clutch pull? Hmmmm, never noticed. But then again I used to race CZ's and Maico's in the 70's. The running joke at the time was it took 3 men and a boy to pull the lever. I just got used to those, didn't use the clutch to shift anyway and built up my left forearm to look like Popeye's. (My right forearm got the same way from the front drum brake on my old iron head Sporty, never have to worry about stopies on that sled) Tom | ||
| Tunes |
Everyone's observations are right on. It's hard for a "motorcyclist" to explain something so emotional as riding a motorcycle. I've owned Harley's from a '46 Flathead to a '98 Evo, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, Norton, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and, my fav, Buells. I treat each bike like they are animals. They can't speak, but I have to understand them and take care of them, so they will take care of me (when I ride them). I mold myself and try to become "one" with my bike... feel the pulses of the engine, feel the tires grip (or slide) on the tarmac. I love to ride motorcycles... have since '67. When I ride, it's like dancing. When you're "in sync" with your partner, it's magic. I'd ride year round if it weren't for the ice and snow!! I love the combination of sportbike geometry with Harley V-Twin power and sound. It took me awhile, and I still need to remind myself every now and then to give the bike more revs. Cause I ride a '67 Norton Atlas, the transition to the XB geometry was short (pun intended). The bikes are similiar in many ways... My S3 handles quite different from the XB, being a longer chassis, so you must ride them differently. When the '06's arrive at the nearest dealer, I know of several Buells who are gonna get test ridden. I'm curious how they will feel in the saddle. | ||
| Blake |
Add the more forward oriented ergonomics, the heavier clutch pull and different front brake feel to the mix of my above comments. It ain't just a corporate slogan is it ... | ||
| U4euh |
1. not having to try so hard- Back in March Badness something occured to me. Going through some of the twisties two Jap bikes zapped past us, full leathers, knee pucks, etc,etc. Rubberdown, being on a 12S, jumped in behind them and gave chase. Jap bikes drop into a curve, sparks flying off there pucks, and they are tucked in like new born baby. Rubberdown is leaned over, moderatly, still had plenty of room to drop down some more. But he is on their tail. Stayed with them for a while(stopped only to let us catch up). You could almost see the smile on Mike's face through the back of his helmet. 2. so different- when I got my 9S, I had a CB1100. Heavy bike compared. The 1st 4-5 months on my normal routes, I found that I would get close to running off the inside of the curves. It was like the bike was telling me, 'Let me do the work, you just hold on to the smile and the bars'. Coming from a bigger bike that is made to haul a55 makes me take notice of how well built the Buell is handling. Maybe this is a bad analogy, but listen to a 1000 watt stereo surround sound system through two big ole nice speakers. Sure it sounds good, but your missing what it was made for. Then you get those five other speakers, and bam, boom, WOW! All the straight line bikes are fun to their own degree, but get onto the Buell and experience all of it. I'll shut up. Maybe it made sense, maybe it didn't, this is a very hard thing to explain, I guess that is why they say go ride one! | ||
| Blake |
Not sure that comparing your experience with a CB1100 is valid for explaining the difference of the XB's wrt current crop of repli-racers. I'd never categorize the current repli-racers as "straight line bikes." They all turn very well. As to how far a bike and rider are leaned over, that is dictated only by three primary factors... speed, radius of curve, and how far the rider is hanging off. With all that equal every sport bike will be leaned over the same amount when negotiating a turn. | ||
| Martin |
I think that much of the weirdness comes from the 'off' throttle response which is a sign of a lack of commitment. Back-off mid-corner and it feels like its going to tuck. The XB rewards, more than any other bike I've ridden, a committed corner entry and a smooth powering-on through a corner. I think that its a classic 'Hailwood' bike, which is why old farts like me who trained on TT100s(and even scarier, Barums and Cheng Shins)love it so much! | ||
| Glitch |
Once when some friends were up from Tampa to taste the twisties, they were kind of kidding Shred and I for our choice in bikes. They were riding ZRX1200s. Well, at the first stop I heard #1 say to #2, "Did you see how Dave just dove into that corner? How are we going to keep up with these two?" Now I know what you're thinking, "Tampa guys? Flat landers!" Well these guys aren't strangers to track days or the mountains, they're great riders. I took it as a great compliment. My XB9S has taught me a lot. And ditto what Blake said above, read it carefully, some very good points, that I hadn't thought of. |
