| Author | Message | ||
     Jima4media |
Anonymous, Just to be clear, all Honda and Nicky Hayden would have to do is replace his dual radial brakes with a Buell ZTL brake, and he would automatically be able to turn faster lap times? If so, every manufacturer would be breaking down the doors for this brake, it would upset all of motorsports, and Buell would be wealthly enough to build whatever bike it wants for any purpose. Is that what we are talking about here? This has to be the best kept secret in the world. | ||
| Jima4media |
tell me "why" the repli-racers all downsized their front brake disks Where is the evidence that they have downsized their front brake rotors? From what to what? | ||
| Blake |
Jim, Think MotoGP race-engineered/optimized version of the Buell ZTL brake/wheel system complete with carbon disk(s), high zoot alloy calipers, and a magnesium alloy wheel. Demanding whether or not such a change would "automatically" allow a racer to turn faster lap times? Why ask such a question if you have already closed your mind to the possibility? A racing motorcycle and its pilot are an integrated system that must work optimally together. Removing mass from the front wheel would undoubtedly lead to adjustments to the suspension and the traction control settings and who knows what else in order to achieve optimal performance, not to mention a learning curve for the racer himself. Not sure how licensing a few brakes to some MotoGP racing teams would make Buell as wealthy as you seem to think it would. Maybe that is an idea worth persuing. Maybe it is already being persued. Do you know the diameter of the dual disks comprising the current Honda RC211V front brake? | ||
| Anonymous |
Jim, Yes, I believe Nicky would go faster with a full race ZTL system, mag wheels, etc. So why not?First and foremost the Japanese build their race bikes to sell street bikes. So they would have to commit to converting their street bikes to ZTL. And they would have to pay royalties. Guess what, the Japanese would not like that. Not at all. The Japanese fight like maniacs to avoid patent royalties. Don't believe me? Ask the guy who invented Suzuki's motocross rear suspension. Ask Steve Simons about royalties on the inverted fork that he invented. So, until someone shows up with ZTL in MotoGP and starts beating the Japanese, they are really, really unlikely to switch. So, anyone have a $25 million per year MotoGP sponsor available? We'll go show them! | ||
| Jima4media |
Dual bore master cylinder in 2001 - from AP racing. http://www.apracing.com/motorcycle/history.htm Bottom of the page. Also this - In 1983 AP Racing developed a rim mounted brake, which has only recently been copied by several manufacturers. Tony Foale's website also lists other bikes with perimeter brakes from the late 70's to the 80's. http://www.tonyfoale.com/ It was also tried on the Suzuki works 500 GP bikes with carbon discs. Been there, done that, as they say. | ||
| Blake |
Jim, How many of those perimeter braking systems took 8 LBs out of the wheel/brake assembly? Did any of them even exploit the fact that the mass of the wheel could be reduced significantly? So it is your opinion that Buell "copied" their ZTL brake/wheel system from somewhere/someone else? On the repliracer brake disk diameter... I don't know how to prove it other than to go looking through a bunch of specs. Just know I saw it in print. Not sure which year it took effect. Not for sure, to be honest, if truly all Japanese repliracers followed suit or if it was only some. I know the disks got smaller though. Why am I skeptical? | ||
| Blake |
... "copied by several manufacturers." Several? I know for a fact that no other manufacturer has anything like the Buell ZTL brake/wheel system, so maybe AP is stretching the truth a bit there, or they are talking about a system that did not exploit the ability to carve a bunch of mass from the wheel as well as achieve a full floating rotor. So maybe Buell borrowed the idea of a perimeter mounted brake disk, figured out how to achieve a reliable full floating rotor and recognized the huge benefit of not needing to carry torsion through the hub and spokes and so carved gobs of material from the wheel significantly reducing its mass. Ya think? | ||
| Jima4media |
Most manufacturers have 320mm dual brakes. Honda has 310mm on the RC211V, CBR-1000, and CBR-600RR, and that size is UP from 296mm on the F4i. Suzuki GSX-R1000 is 300 mm as is the Kawasaki 10R The Harley V-Rod is 292mm | ||
| Blake |
Pretty sure the repli-racers all had 320mm at one time too. Anyway, why did they downsize? | ||
| Steve_a |
Buell did not invent squeezing the brake rotor from the inside. That's not uncommon on commercial aircraft brake packages, and it's been suggested/shown/prototyped on motorcycles before. But Buell did it differently, made it work, and put it in production. Good ideas are cheap, but manifesting them as production hardware is hard. The most important thing is that the ZTL is NOT a rim-mounted disc. It mounts on little cast mounts right at the end of the spokes. You can ding the rim without having the brake go wobbly. The comparison numbers on weight that have come out of Buell have compared it to the RC51 wheel/tire/disc package and show an 8-pound weight difference. That does not take caliper differences into account. They also show lower rotational inertia front wheel assembly to front wheel assembly (about 10 percent less, if I'm remembering correctly). I very much doubt if a 600 wheel/disc assembly were as light as the ZTL package, but we'll just have to wait until someone weighs one to know. (Message edited by steve_a on July 22, 2005) | ||
| Jima4media |
Colin Edwards won the World Superbike Championship on a RC51, and Nicky Hayden won the AMA Superbike Championship on a RC51. And that was against a rather potent Ducati 998. It couldn't have been that bad of a bike. All I know is that it could sure kick an X-1s ••• around the block. | ||
| Court |
>>>>So, anyone have a $25 million per year MotoGP sponsor available? We'll go show them! Later dude. Starting tomorrow, at 10:00 MDT, Buell is going to be far to busy building and selling motorcycles. Be patient.  | ||
| Benm2 |
Give King Kenny a call. IF he can keep his current sponsors, he certainly seems to be in need of some new ideas. Erik Buell & Kenny Roberts Sr.? A match made in heaven? (if they didn't kill each other WHEN they eventually disagree...) The move to disk brakes on bicycles is all about durability & power, nothing else. If you squeeze the rims hard enough, they could buckle. Plus, one stream crossing turns your non-disc brake into a rim grinder. By & large, they are HEAVIER than the rim brakes, but well worth the weight. Also, as a direct comparison, spoke diameter goes UP with disk brakes, to handle the torsional loads from the brakes. As far as race marketing goes, I think that Yamaha quietly switched their MotoGP back to 4 valves per cylinder instead of five. | ||
| Bomber |
Ben -- Yammie Vale count -- you're dead nuts on -- after several years of vociferously touting the fact that both their street and track scoot had the majik number of valves (but, alas, not pentangle on the tank), they just started showin up with four -- at least they had the grace not to announce it as their new, far more powerful tech ;-} | ||
| Anonymous |
<Give King Kenny a call> I think that was done many years ago. The King KNOWS how a motorcycle should be designed, he doesn't need any hayseeds from Wisconsin telling him stuff. | ||
| Firemanjim |
I sure hope that last gibe was a self inflicted gibe--cuz if not I for one am offended. Blake?? Jim, think "sarcasm." Pretty sure it was a justified dig at Kenny, not Erik. And yes, more than one anony around these parts, more than three even. (Message edited by blake on July 22, 2005) | ||
| Benm2 |
Anon, that's kind of what I thought. The immovable object meets the unstoppable force. Oh well. WCM maybe? Or (God forbid) a Ducati-Buell partnership!? | ||
| Benm2 |
Good golly, I'm drooling just thinking about it. A bright red, fully faired XB, 45 degree twin with a desmoquattro top end....shakin'& thumpin' on the pole... | ||
| Jima4media |
Formula Xtreme riders are practicing at Mid-Ohio right now. Jake Zemke is closing in on a track record with a 129.736 Mike Barnes is proving he can turn a quick lap with a 130.182 - on a Suzuki 600. Jeff Johnson from Hoban Bros. on a Buell XB is dead last with a 143.249. I guess that is because the Buell has superior brakes.  (Message edited by jima4media on July 22, 2005) | ||
| Choptop |
The Buell ZTL is significantly lighter than any conventional front wheel/brake assembly on any repliracer. That you indignantly demand proof of that does not alter the truth of the statement. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++} wow... that sums it up... make claims without any proof, then poo-poo anyone that does want to look at the facts. Demanding proof doesnt alter the truth? What if the FACTS show your TRUTH not to be true? this is gone beyond any reasonable discussion and into the realm of the cultists rocking back and forth in the corner chanting the words of Erik over and over.... amazing. | ||
| Josh_ |
I'd guess it's because other than the brakes they're on identical bikes with identical sponsor funding and have similar race experience. | ||
| Jima4media |
If Buell could find $25 million, it would be better to put the money into a motor instead of investing in a rider. | ||
| Spike |
If we took that logic and applied it to your previous logic, we could concur that the Marauder would turn quicker laps than the 3 you mentioned because it stops better. Really Jim, I can't see where you're going with this. First you claimed stopping distances were a good measure of brake system performance and now you're claiming lap times are a good measure of brake system performance. What's next? Will you tell us that top speed is a good indicator of brake system performance? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Chop... are you just trolling? I believe the front wheel assembly of my XB is lighter because I can look at the damn thing, and see that it has FAR less material put into it then the CBR600rr or Suzuki VStrom sitting on either side of it in the parking lot outside at this very moment. Look at the two side by side and the difference is obvious. I look forward to hard numbers if Danny posts them, but in the meantime, it is going to take a LOT more dogma to believe that the weights are the same then it will to believe the ZTL front is lighter. (sorry Danny, called you Donny). (Message edited by reepicheep on July 22, 2005) | ||
| Danny |
First entry, was convenient. Blackstone Tek Cabon-fiber rim, two high-zoot rotors (forgot the brand, I'll check again tonight), axle and chewed up Pirelli Diablo Corsa. 21 lbs. No calipers were weighed in the accumulation of this knowledge. Tomorrow I will pull a wheel off our consignment XB9R and weigh that. I haven't checked the schedule, but if any '04 or newer sportbike comes in for tires, I'll get that, too. | ||
| Jon |
I think the issue of Buell's brake design have been adequately supported. Round two is always preceeded by bringing up race bikes as an example of why Buell's current brake system is not up to snuff. Blake, interseting diagrams. The concepts of load transfer and weight as realted to motorcycle brakes are very intersting to me. I need to read, re-read and read again. I usually deal with dead load, windload and live load forces as pertains to building decks and facades. Again, I really see no reason for the "outrage". It's totally unjustified and out of proportion. Danny, I'll be checking back to see what you find! | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
(Sigh) I agree Jon, the issue isn't about racing bikes. It isn't going to happen, but I'd like to sit down in front of the XB front end on a one to one discussion with some of the folks here and talk about what I see in this design. If you couldn't see it then, well, we'd just have to disagree! (And I had nothing to do with the design of the darn system!). Steve. www.shs-consulting.co.uk | ||
| Jima4media |
Let's review this thread thus far. Blake began with saying that Brian was ignorant because he didn't understand the Buell ZTL perimeter brake as Erik Buell explained it at a presentation at Laguna Seca. Then Blake went into belt drives versus chain drives. I said that ZTL brakes are perfectly adequate for the street for 99% of the riders out there that are using them. I would go further than that. I think they are well designed, simpler, lighter unsprung weight than the competition, and offer other advantages as well. All you really need is a brake that will pull you down from speed when you see that aluminum ladder fall of a truck, or the soccer mom on the cell phone make a U-turn in front of you. 90% of the roads in the world have a speed limit under 60 miles per hour, and you can stop from that speed on anything better than a Vespa scooter. But from a price/performance standpoint, anyone can go out a buy a any 600cc bike for the big 4 Japanese companies, for a couple of thousand less, and outperform a Buell XB, given riders with equal skills. Whether you like the ergos of a 600 is another matter altogether. In order to prove that statement you have to put these bikes on the track and time them. It is a stopwatch that is the best indicator of overall performance of a bike, which includes the variables of skill, weight, horsepower, torque, suspension, brakes, wind resistance, and astrological sign. I once saw a Buell XB 1350 pass a Ducati 748 in the corkscrew for a win at Laguna Seca, but other than that, there has not be a lot of success of this bike against other competitors in racing situations. The reason is horsepower. 1 horsepower overcomes 7 pounds of problems in other areas. Even if the ZTL brakes weighed NOTHING, it wouldn't matter. Modern 600cc bikes that come with dual radial brakes, make so much more horsepower, that brake weight isn't a factor. Everybody clear on that now? There is no outrage here, just stating the facts. There are plenty of reasons to own a Buell XB other than performance. Gas mileage is a big one. It lowers your total cost of ownership over the lifetime of the bike, by a big margin. And you can rest comfortably knowing that you are keeping 180 Americans in a job in Wisconsin. YMMV, Jim | ||
| Blake |
Alan, Back at ya o' disciple of all things repli-racer. I challenge you to show that the Buell ZTL wheel isn't lighter than any other stock sportbike wheel/brake assembly. You say I "make claims without any proof"? Well the proof in Erik's presentation comparing the Buell ZTL brake/wheel assembly to that of the RC51 and finding an 8 LB difference is pretty convincing proof in my book. The engineering illustration I posted above is pretty convincing evidence for me of how and why the ZTL system achieves such a significant weight reduction. Maybe I'll show the next step in that illustration, the one that will directly illustrate the internal loading of the hub and spokes. The fact that current repli-racer wheels would need to have somehow magically lost 8-LB in the past six years in order to match the Buell ZTL system weight is pretty convincing evidence. So I'd say that clearly the onus is upon you to show that what the above evidence indicates is mistaken. I'd say that there exists a clear preponderance of evidence supporting the assessment that the Buell ZTL wheel/brake is significantly less massive than any other OEM sportbike wheel/brake assembly. There are those here who may put their personal agenda over rational objective analysis of the issue. Your closing comments are very unfortunate. If you can point out technical apects in this debate anyone has been inaccurate or disingenuous, that out would be welcome; insulting people here is not. How about putting up thre same-sized profile photos, one of a Buell ZTL wheel, one of the RC51 OEM wheel, and one of whatever OEM repli-racer front wheel you think might be comparable in weight to the ZTL? That sure would be a constructive addition to the discussion. A lot better than insults. Danny, I implore you; if you cannot obtain weights without the tire, please don't muddy the waters with highly variable highly uncertain values. Worn tires, new tires, different tires... way too much uncertainty/error in trying to compare wheel weights with those kinds of unknown factors involved. Let's keep the "S" in BSME for "Science."  | ||
| Jon |
That Buell's brakes are adequate for 99% of street situations is probably a good enough basis for championing them in the first place. To compare them to Rossi's (or any pro-racer's) brake set-up is a little out of that context and doesn't make a reasonable basis for arguing against the design. |
