| Author | Message | ||
     Jon |
Jim, Your crashes need addressing, but bashing Buell for not having race quality brakes isn't a part of that story. | ||
| Blake |
Alan (Chop), Repeat after me. "Buell owns the patent." I know you can get it. "Buell owns the patent." No one else can do it cause... "Buell owns the patent." Honda completely missed it and "Buell owns the patent." Actually I'm not entirely sure that Buell's patent precludes competitors from using the lighter wheel or not; they'd certainly need to find a different way of supporting the floating perimeter disk which was a huge part of really making the perimeter brake viable. But regardless, I don't buy your contention that every other manufacturer would be doing it if it had merit. Does Desmodromic valve actuation have merit and provide valid demonstrable benefits? Sure does. Why don't all bikes use it? Does the Telelever front suspension system have merit and provide valid demonstrable benefits? Of course. Then why don't all bikes use it? Do hydraulic lifter have merit and provide valid demonstrable benefits? Absolutely. Then why don't all engines use them? Does Honda's variable action steering damper have merit and provide valid demonstrable benefits? Definitely. Why are all manufacturers using it? Do 4-cyl engines have merit and provide valid demonstrable benefits? Then why don't all bikes have them? The Buell ZTL brake/wheel system has merit and provides valid demonstrable benefits. Why after just three years in existence don't all bikes use a ZTL front brake/wheel?  And again you digress to the braking performance issue. Again you dodge the major advantage of the ZTL system. What would that be? I guess your position is that significantly less unsprung weight is not beneficial providing no demonstrable advantage with any merit. Please then explain why the Japan Inc. repli-racers all decreased the diameter of their front brake disks. Why would they sacrifice a significant amount of braking power for a few less ounces of unsprung mass? Silly Japanese engineers. I'll take the word of Steve Anderson. The Buell ZTL comes in WAY lighter than any other sportbike front wheel/brake assembly. BTW, I've heard plenty of experienced riders including me praise the Buell XB front brake and road holding feel of the front end. I've read the same in reputable moto magazine reviews. I agree, the true measure for a suspension and braking system is at the extremes, like in a panic stop scenario on uneven pavement or during a mid-turn line adjustment on uneven pavement, maybe wet pavement. All else being equal, where another less innovative motorcycle will be unable to retain control and will go down, a Buell XB's significantly lighter front wheel/brake assembly, helping to keep rubber in more consistent contact with the road may well save the Buell from going down. That's a pretty significant demonstrable benefit. Pretty sure it has merit. It just isn't evident to someone taking a test ride. Therein lies the crux of the issue. The ZTL configuration could well save you from going down, but you would never know it. Kinda like taking a baby aspirin every day. It could very well save your life, but you have no way to recognize that fact or prove it. Now quit having so much fun at my expense; stop baiting me and pay some attention to your lady. She deserves your attention way more than I do, and Michele is just now home too and the steaks are done. (Message edited by blake on July 18, 2005) | ||
| Jima4media |
Jon, The crashes are old news. The X-1s are history. But they did stop quicker than the current XBs with perimeter brakes do. To be clear, I'm not bashing Buell. I'm only saying that perimeter brakes don't stop you as fast as dual radial brakes do. There is no evidence to the contrary of that statement. For a given amount of money, you can own a bike with better brakes and more horsepower. That is a fact. It is proved every weekend at the track. Do you need a race bike on the street? I don't think so, and that is the reason I have never bought a replica racer as a street bike. As soon as someone like Honda or Yamaha figures out that I want the same ergos on my street bike as a Buell X-1, with the same motor as their CBR1000 or R1, then I'll own one. The BMW K1200R Power Cup model is probably a good example of the bike I want. The KTM Super Duke looks interesting also, because of the light weight V-Twin. In another 4 days and a wake-up, I'll know if Buell has a model to measures up to these state of the art bikes. At any given point in time you have to do the competitive analysis of what is available, versus what you have in mind to buy. | ||
| Blake |
The fillet was superb. Best cut of beef there is. Always cooked over real mesquite charcoal. Life sure is good. Brian, I agree, tracks have bumps too. OHR certainly does. But they are all well-known having been negotiated repeatedly, over and over again; they are not likely to be encountered by surprise in a panic stop situation with trees lining the roadside. There lies the big difference. You can run off the track in relatively safety. On the road that is often not the case. I've never denied that the tube frame Buells suffered more than their fair share of problems, especially the early DDFI models. We even conducted a poll on the issue of Buell owner satisfaction. What I used to refute was inflammatory characterizations like those you used to levy that "all Buells were piles of ••••", or that anyone who owned one was an idiot. My '97 Cyclone is still the one single best motorcycle on the planet for me. Whenever I would say that, it would drive you to respond hatefully and insultingly. Not sure why. You then seemed to always interpret such a statement as some kind of insult against your own personal views. You'd then hurl all kinds of bullshit insults like you are doing now, telling me to take off the rose colored glasses or pull my head from the sand or some such ingenious commentary. Sorry your Buell experience sucked for you. I wish you'd leave the personal attacks out of it. Time to move up a maturity notch on the ole web boards don't you think? Your kiddo will be able to read soon, no? I'll be honest, I've said it before and I'll say it again... I guarantee you that if I had endured a Buell ownership experience like JimA's or Vik's, I would likely have a tough time purchasing another Buell motorcycle. What I wouldn't do is wage a derisive campaign attacking Buell at every turn. The point is that such experiences were truly not the norm and certainly not mine. I've crossed the country no less than six times on my Cyclone, put over a thousand miles lapping the race track and competed in some five CMRA road races (not nearly enough). Worst Buell problem I've had is a troublesome kickstand safety switch. I think you are being over-sensitive to Erik's remarks concerning brakes and HP and I think you forgot who comprised the vast majority of the audience. One can disagree without hurling inflamatory accusations and personal insults. Or if that is how you really feel, you should have had the guts to do so in person. That you didn't pretty much tells the story. The man was an AMA Formula One racer for crying out loud. The man started his own motorcycle company that Harley-Davidson, one of the most successful motorcycle manufacturers of all time, saw fit to invest in and help him follow his dream. Please name a single other human being on this planet in the last 25 years that has done what Erik Buell has done. One. From garage to HDI subsidiary and world famous manufacture of sport bikes. That Buell motorcycles are selling well in Europe where sport-bikes rule is very telling. Or is the European moto-market just duped by Buell's smoke and mirror engineering for engineering's sake marketing campaign?  So the R6 is now the current Cecil moto flavour du jour? Great bike if you like that kind of revvy performance. Personally I absolutely hate it. It might be tolerable in a twin or a big bang IL4 configuration (why don't they offer that?), but otherwise, yech! No thanks. Less unsprung mass is better. Finding a way to reduce the front wheel/brake assembly's unsprung mass by over 20% is freaking genius. That is no lie. Truly, you would dig hearing Erik discuss his new electric guitar design. I fear though that you have so burned any potential bridge to the man that you'll likely never have the chance. What an aweful terrible shame. | ||
| Jima4media |
Blake, Yes, the rear wheel locked up completely and skidded twice. The first time nothing much happened as I was going pretty slow. The second time I was going into a turn the rear wheel locked again, and I stood the bike up and went to the inside of a curve to avoid a pickup truck that was headed towards me. I hit some gravel on the road and the front end washed out, and I low sided. Minor cosmetic damage and a broken shifter. I was going UP hill in both of these cases. Rode the bike right to dealer to have them fix it. Buell picked up the bill. Couldn't find a problem with the brakes. The front wheel lockup was very unusual. I was coming down hill on Palomares road. Brakes were very hot after a lot of braking in the twisties. The front wheel hit a small rock in the road, and the front brake locked up. I was rolling up to a stop sign at no more than 10 miles an hour. Before I knew it, I was over the handlebars on the asphalt, and the bike was on top of me. I rode the bike 26 miles home, after 4 American Sport Bike Nighters checked out the brakes and couldn't find a problem. I missed Laguna Seca that year because I was in the hospital with 4 broken ribs, punctured lung, and a broken shoulder. Rex Chaney had a very similar accident in the Sierras with his M2. | ||
| Jon |
Jim, be careful bro. You need to talk to Rex before you imply that his accident had anything to do with faulty brakes. He has never cited faulty brakes as the culprit. As far as Buell's new bikes go, I hope you see one you like. I would happily own an older or a newer Buell. | ||
| Brianh |
Whenever I would say that, it would drive you to respond hatefully and insultingly. Not sure why. You then seemed to always interpret such a statement as some kind of insult against your own personal views. I think you're projecting there Blake. I couldn't care less what you or anyone else thinks of the bikes I ride. I just know that I could kick your and old Erik's butt out on the race track with them.  Erik Buell designing guitar equipment is utterly scary. He can't even play. What in the world does he pretend to know about manufacturing a guitar? Now Dale Unger, he knows how to build a guitar: http://www.americanarchtop.com/ As far as burning bridges, it's my sincere hope that Erik Buell hasn't a clue who I am. If he's paying any attention whatsoever to the likes of me, he's more lost than I thought! | ||
| Choptop |
The ZTL and perimeter brakes are one in the same idea.... Buell doen not own the patent on that. if there is a demonstrable difference that would make a standard perimeter braking set up inherently heavier than a Buells... please point it out. step one - make a light wheel step two - put a perimeter braking system on it what else is there? | ||
| Rex |
I was not running buell front brakes on my buell when I went down. I had the dual perimeter brakes on the front wheel by braking...... REX | ||
| Blake |
"For a given amount of money, you can own a bike with better brakes and more horsepower. That is a fact. It is proved every weekend at the track." What is your point?  Trying to rate the value of a street bike by citing track stats is brilliant... if you all you care about is racing your bike around a track. What is your point? Here's a point. Name all the motorcycles that can achieve 60 mpg and put down more than 90 RWHP. Name all the motorcycles that make better than 90 RWHP and require zero valvetrain maintenance, zero rear axle adjustment, zero throttle synchronization, zero coolant maintenance, absolutely no repeated lubrication of the final drive componentry. All other motorcycles must be inferior. Of course that is a ridiculous claim. Because depending on one's personal preferences some attributes matter and others don't. All this is old hat. Don't know why some don't get it. God forbid someday Buell might actually produce the world's dominant racing machine. LOL. Please define "better brakes." Would brakes that are easily capable of causing the bike to endo and that allow a 20%+ reduction in front end unsprung mass be better than brakes that don't allow a reduction in unsprung mass? Answer... Yes. Would brakes that are comprised of half as many parts be better than brakes requiring twice as many parts? As relates to complexity and the potential for problems or even failure... Yes. Jim, the ZTL brake is fully capable of stopping any bike on the road today just as quickly as any other brake system. Insisting that the ZTL is inferior due to the short wheelbase XB's stopping distance is bullshit. Really hate to see you propagate misleading information like that. If you don't believe me, are you really wanting to dispute the conclusion of an MIT Engineer and noted motojournalist techo geek? (meant in the best possible way, absolutely no offense intended ) Isn't the FZ1 exactly what you are talking about in a "standard" genre bike with a repliracer engine? I think that is what your mentor Carl Rove rides.  Then again, a free viffer loaner is awfully hard to beat. | ||
| Jima4media |
The fact of the matter is that all brakes are pretty good nowadays. Of the 150 some bikes tested by MCN all were within 106 feet to 140 feet stopping distance. If the throw out the best 10 and worst 10, they are all pretty close. I added up the totals and 107 bikes were better at braking than Buells and 41 weren't as good. So let's set brakes aside for a minute. Now, in every other performance measurement, there isn't a Buell in any of the lists. 1/4 mile time, Rear Wheel HP, Power-To-Weight Ratio, Top Speed, and Rear Wheel Torque. Hey, but they do get great mileage! (Message edited by jima4media on July 19, 2005) | ||
| Jon |
Hey Brian, the lead guitarist for Queensryche plays a guitar made by Erik Buell. It's his #1 axe. | ||
| Sandblast |
Funny though, how I seem to keep up with my bleeding edge repli racer friends just fine, I'm even (gasp) sometimes a little faster. But they are always less comfortable, and I always look cooler. And I dont have to oil my chain. Or add coolant. I have not raced on a track (yet), and Erik did not make my bike for a racer, but I say the ZTL system, along with other Buell innovations, NAILS it for the street rider. | ||
| Jon |
Jim, Buy another bike....don't buy a Buell! A master rider like yourself will not be happy with anything less that a 2 wheeled consumer digest approved rocket!  | ||
| Blake |
Thanks for chiming in Rex. And thanks again for all your work wrt the dinner. It exceeded all expectations. Jon, After spending nearly the entire race weekend hanging with JimA, I've figured him out a bit. He comes across as focusing on the negative a lot, cause that's pretty much who he is.  For real. He's an old grumpy guss,  but unlike some such folk, he's very mild mannered in person and he does find plenty of enjoyment and pleasure in life. And he cooks great brats too. We had a good time. Not sure how his cute l'il Marylou puts up with him though. He definitely is out of his league there, kinda like you in that respect, me too, Court too, DaveS too, Ferris too, ... heck pretty much any guy who managed to convince a lady to take him in. Brian, Once again you find yourself with foot-in-mouth disease. Like Jon said. Mike Stone, the guitarist for Queensryche is using and loving the prototype Buell electric guitar. He calls it the "Thundercaster." LOL. So keep your eye out for a limited edition air-cooled Thundercaster soon at your local high end music shop. Seriously though, you might be surprised by who might be producing Erik's guitar. (Message edited by blake on July 19, 2005) | ||
| Jon |
Blake, Yeah you nailed that one on the head...It's only God's grace that I got Kirsten. Pretty neat story actually. Yeah, Jim's alright. He's an American Sport Bike Night man in real life! Next time you come out here, we got dibs on providing hospitality for you. | ||
| Jima4media |
Yeah, Karl Rove is my mentor. Like Machiavelli, Attila the Hun and Genghis Kahn . That is Karl with a K, like Erik with a K, and Karl Marx with a K.  (Message edited by jima4media on July 19, 2005) | ||
| Court |
That Dale Unger archtop is gorgeous....I've been a DeBenedetto fan (largely due to spending lots of time watching the Frank and Joe Show and watching Frank as Les Paul's sideman) and admit to being impressed by the Unger. I'll stay clear of the balance of this thread...lacking anything other than largely unsubstantiated opionion (everyone's entitled to one) there's not a great deal to comment on. The internet in it's finest hour. Court | ||
| Choptop |
if there is a demonstrable difference that would make a standard perimeter braking set up inherently heavier than a Buells?... please point it out. step one - make a light wheel step two - put a perimeter braking system on it what else is there? | ||
| Blake |
Chop, First, if you don't want the brake disk sticking out in harm's way beyond the rim, yes there is a lot more to it. Special wheel design. Second, if you want a floating disk (maybe Rex can talk about the advantages of that over a disk that is fastened rigidly to the rim) there are some very difficult challenges to overcome for a perimeter brake disk. Third, one would first need to recognize the great potential benefit offered by a ZTL setup, the ability to drop pounds from the wheel hub and spoke. And this is what Buell grasped that no one else, not the aftermarket perimeter brake/wheel manufacturers, not the Honda NAS concept team, not anyone else was able to grasp and take hold of and bring a substantial innovation/improvement to the world of sport-bikes built for the street. That last point is the crux of the issue. Thinking outside the box, out of the mainstream, unconventionally and with a mastery of not only specific single componentry or systems but of the entire vehicle as a whole and the relationships between all its individual systems, relationships like the effect of a full fuel tank on handling and the benefit of moving that fuel tank lower, relationships like the effect of a long heavy overhung exhaust tract versus a short compact centered one, relationships like those between the fixity/anchoring scheme of a brake disk, the braking induced loads/stresses and the strength/mass of the wheel hub and spokes. Still waiting for you to explain why not all manufacturers use Desmo or Telelever or... Do you really honestly believe that Buell's competitors would immediately validate the innovative new technology of a competitor by copying it??? And again, there is that patent issue. They'd have to figure out a new way to achieve a reliable floating perimeter disk that would not violate the Buell patent. And if even if they did, how long do you imagine such a commercial endeavor would take? Answer... Concept, design, testing, tooling, manufacture, more testing... easily years. No big deal? Buell just figured out a way to drop 8 LBs from the front wheel/brake assembly of a sport-bike. But to you its just engineering for engineering's sake? No way that Buell can innovate anything meaningful, since that would mean all the designers/engineers of the competitors would then be idiots? No way Buell can innovate anything significant since competitors would already have thought of it? Are you listening to yourself? Unbelievable. Your total lack of respect for what Buell has achieved with the ZTL is truly bewildering, belittling and bashing Buell for the sake of belittling and bashing Buell. Totally uncool and very transparent, not just to me. (Message edited by blake on July 19, 2005) | ||
| Bomber |
Blake's list of non-traditional moto-technology (desmo valves, BMWs love affair with non-standard forks, might I add Yamaha's 5-valve head and their GTS front end to the list?) sparked a thought (oh-oh) Motorcyclists are pretty conservative when it come to technology -- front end desgins havn't changed radically for quite some time, in spite of a few pieces that actually do seem to perform better (on the street) -- good quality lighting on bikes is almost unheardof, horns that don't remind you of a pre-teen on a Schwinn ditto, the list goes on (racers, of course, are even less likely to innovate -- get expensive doing R&D on the track in front of millions, don't it) can it be that some of these technologies are deployed for their ability to differentiate the bikes on which they are found from their competition? that any performance advantage (however measured) is considered equally to the differentiation value? just a thought many of these technologies produce similar performance | ||
| Choptop |
Do you really honestly believe that Buell's competitors would immediately validate the innovative new technology of a competitor by copying it??? wow... you are in the cult deep. THEY are deliberately NOT copying us because they KNOW its sooooo good... WTF? ok, so what are the major differences between the ZTL and the other perimeter disc set ups? the ones I've seen have the disc mounted flush with the edge of the rim. you havent pointed out the major differences, and why the ZTL is better... what patent does Buell hold for mounting the flaoting disc to the wheel? Did they patent the BOLT? thats all it takes. steps to making a light wheel with floating perimeter disc... step one - make light wheel step two - add floating perimeter disc whats the difference and where is the patent infringement? as to the others...Desmo, Tele.... good technology, but again... technology for technologies sake. They have ONE outstanding feature inherent to each design, but that ONE feature does not make a better overall package. and in the end, the better overall package will win the day, on any playing field you choose. | ||
| Jima4media |
What is the primary function of a front brake? To stop the bike, or slow it down, in as short a distance as possible. Any other purpose, like ease of manufacture, lightness, or intellectual property value is secondary. If Buell's ZTL brake was actually the best at its primary function, every other brake manufacturer would be scrambling to license it, copy it, develop it. The fact of the matter is that other brakes do the primary job better than the ZTL perimeter brake. At that point all secondary functions fly out the window. | ||
| Gregs |
The major brands would adopt or pay royalties to Buell it if it gave them a competative atvantage. But it doesn't. In fact if the design is so advanced, forward thinking and superior why doesn't Buell market it to other manufacturers. Imagine how much revenue Buell could make on royalties if the design was widely adopted. And stop refering to this thread a a technical discussion. I have seen nothing but opinions so far. No facts to back anything up. Except that in the time it took to create this thread the reduction of unsprung weight of the front wheel grew from 6lbs to 8lbs!  And I still want to know what the front wheel assembly is 6lbs-8lbs lighter than? | ||
| Blake |
The applicable patents can be found online here and here and here. Enjoy. I've pointed out the differences and the advantages. When a brake rotor heats up during normal use, it expands, it expands significantly. If you think it a trivial exercise to design a full floating perimeter disk system, that all it requires are bolts, well, you are horribly mistaken. See above patents. The Buell perimeter disk is different and better in that unlike any and all preceding aftermarket and Honda Concept bike versions of a perimeter disk braking system, it actually works well, is full-floating, and does not protrude in harm's way to the edge of the rim or beyond. Rather the Buell ZTL perimeter disk is nestled protectively inside the wheel rim. No other perimeter disk that I've examined is, including the Honda NAS concept bike or the aftermarket perimeter disk systems. So if all bikes utilized telever front suspensions and some rogue designer introduced a fully cantelevered front end, I suppose you would call that "technology for technology's sake" too? Anything different from convention must be of little real value in your mind? You are certainly free to tell yourself that dropping 8 LBs from the unsprung mass of the front wheel/brake assembly is "technology for technology's sake." As one who understands the significant benefits that a 20%+ lighter front wheel/brake assembly provides, I'll have to disagree. Pretty sure most people who understand the technical aspects of the issue will disagree with you as well. | ||
| Blake |
Jim, Define "better". Is it "better" to have a brake that provides ten times the required stopping power versus one that provides eight times the required stopping power? Apparently it is your view that a more powerful brake will always be better than any other brake? Okay, then please explain why all the Japan Inc. repliracers downsized their front brake disks? They went to a less powerful brake system design. Why did they do that Jim? Greg, I explained the clear and real benefits of reduced unsprung weight. That was technical. Sorry you aren't able to comprehend the difference between opinion and technical discussion. Which would your post constitute? Right, interesting logic there Greg. I find it terribly short-sighted and contrary to reality. For instance, why doesn't Harley seek to license their market crushing V-Twin engines to other manufacturers? What you are proposing is that instead of designing and building complete innovative motorcycles Buell should get into the parts supplier business, providing all their best designs to their competitors thus helping their competitors sell more bikes. That's a perfect way to put a motorcycle manufacturer out of business. Better might be to educate people about the very real and significant benefits provided by the innovative Buell ZTL braking/wheel system. I mean if Buell wants to stay in the business of selling motorcycles rather than transform into a parts supplier. The 8 LBs was the difference between the Buell ZTL and an RC51 front wheel/brake assembly. I graciously reduced that to 6 LBs conceding that the current lightest weight sport-bike wheel/brake assembly might possibly have been able to trim a few LBs in the past six years. I apparently was too quick to be accommodating on that point and mis-spoke. | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
I'm agreeing with Blake here. I've looked very closely at the engineering in that ZTL brake and in many respects it is darn clever and has clear benefits for a road bike. One thing that hasn't been mentioned (I think) is how close to the centre line of the bike the ZTL disk is by offsetting the spokes to get the disk as inboard and as close to the centre line of the bike as possible. The more you look at the design, the more you see. The more you see, the more advantages there are to this design. The only advantage I can see to dual disks as used by the Buell racers is the increase of heat sinking available in the twin disk/caliper set up versus a single caliper/disk. Desirable for a race bike. But for the road? (Message edited by steveshakeshaft on July 19, 2005) | ||
| Choptop |
dropping 8lbs compared to what? | ||
| Choptop |
notice that erik never claimed the set up braked better, offered better feel or better handling than other systems. he just said its lighter than a 6 year old design, and has fewer parts. all true. he never claimed higher performance. | ||
| Blake |
Any other sport bike front wheel/brake assembly. Prove me wrong. Erik did talk about the improved suspension performance. You keep missing that. It is big deal. Other manufacturers struggle fight scratch and claw their way to shave mere ounces off their sport bikes. Buell figured out an innovative way to drop 8 LBs! How can that ever possibly by anyone be considered "technology for technology's sake"? |
