| Author | Message | ||
     José_Quiñones |
This is from the July 2001 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News.    | ||
| José_Quiñones |
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| José_Quiñones |
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| José_Quiñones |
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| Anonymous |
but that is a delpi F.I. system a far cry from the Buells DDFI. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
It's so inferior that it has a manifold pressure sensor, an anti knock sensor and an idle control motor. I guess Buell thinks it's setup is so much better that they don't need any of these features. They must consider them "gimmicks" Being able to start a bike when it's 20 degrees outside without having to hold the throttle open, be able to adjust to small air leaks and keep the engine from knocking when it gets hot are "gimmicks" that would be wonderful features to the Buell system. As a bonus, the HD techs at the dealerships wouldn't have to worry about learning THREE Different systems. | ||
| Bullitt |
Cut 'em a little slack, JQ. BMC probably started developing the DDFI system 6 or 7 years ago, a lifetime in computer terms. They apparently did it the hard way to boot, coming up with their own proprietary system without outside help? Fuel management in cars is still light years ahead of anything installed on a production motorcycle, and I think H-D made the right call in getting GM/Delphi's assistance. Delphi could arguably be called the the undisputed world leader in this area. Visteon a close second. Any speculation on how they worked out the MAP sensor's vacuum problem? I'll take a guess. Rather than constantly monitor intake vacuum key it to crank position, throttle position and engine speed. They already do this in cars - OBD scans call it a load index. That way the PCM is only paying attention to the MAP sensor when it really counts. Or another way: again, keyed to crank position, have the PCM get a min/max voltage reading every couple of cycles and compute the average - a filtered reading, if you will. I'm sure people are already hacking V-Rod PCMs to figure out how they did it. | ||
| Johnnybravo |
I talk to the techs in my shop all the time and they always say and i still belive that you can never fully tune a F.I. system. Give me an old fasion carb any day, something i can tune in 10 min. instead of getting a MIT graduate to hack into my ECM to get my mapping straight because i switched air cleaners  | ||
| Chuck |
The nice thing about a carb is that, if your bike doesn't run just right, you have no one to blame but yourself . . . but if you've got a problem with a fuel injected machine, you're not sure who or what to blame. | ||
| Bullitt |
You can't tune an F.I. system? You guys have got to be kidding. Tuning - i.e. precise fuel metering - is where fuel injection really shines. If a guy in a shop tells you otherwise, he's not a tech. He's a mechanic. If these guys had their way, your Buell would have a points ignition. | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Not so much cant tune it. Just acuratlly tune it like a carb can. There are so many things that go wrong on thoes systems O2 sensors, temp. sensors, etc. and without a massive amount of electronics that would make Bill Gates jizz his pants and about 30 hours on the dyno you cant get them closley tuned as you could a carberator. Also who wants to bring there bike into the shop to have the cheif technical engineer of the Enterprise re-map there bike after every mod or hey i'm goin to the track today could you richen it up just a smidge. So would you rather spend $35.00 + for remapping even more for dyno tuning or 2.50 or less for a jet?  | ||
| Bullitt |
If all the FI bike needed was to be "richened up a smidge" it's only a few keystrokes away. As an added bonus, you get to specify exactly what RPM range the "smidge" appears. No such luck with the carb jet - it's a best guess deal. If you really want to get the mixture right, the dyno is the place to do it, no matter how the fuel gets delivered Years ago, the sensor reliability thing might have held water. Today - this stuff is bulletproof. Here's the worst part, JB: Your very own M2 has several sensors! The VOES, rear head temp, cam position....I'm sure Mr. Scott is keeping busy removing all that stuff  I'm amazed at all the guys who regularly use computers and the internet, have huge complex home theater systems, use cell phones, microwave ovens, on and on, and yet can be intimidated by something as simple as speed density fuel injection. | ||
| Shot_Gun |
Bullit, I think what JB is saying to the average home wrench we can tune a carb at home with minimal tools. I think FI is the way to go for the reasons you mentioned. I don't think it is practical enough yet for the home service mechanic to maintain. I still hear pepople complaining about the O2 sensor failing ect. Mabey we need that new delphi system? SG | ||
| Sarodude |
Here's the deal... You (yes, YOU!) obviously have access to a PC. You're here. Despite the fact that many of you don't know what tcp/ip, http, file systems, APIs, server side scripts or CGIs are, you're able to use this BBS. Why is it that much more difficult to string a cable between a bike and this PC and make some changes? Now, finding the environment and data acquisition to help you effectively tune your FI (or carb, for that matter) may be a different story... -Saro | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Thank you shotgun  nailed it on the head. I'm not at all scared of the FI system my old 87 Drag Cougar was a 5 liter FI race motor. The system was old and huge and could run without the 02 sensors sounds like Bull huh i was able to take a old Ford scanning tool and lock it into a desired setting so i am no slouch when it comes to mapping or playing around with a FI system. It's that on a bike for me it is not practical. How many Race bikes do you see with FI or even better yet Race cars like NASCAR or drag cars like NHRA? Carbs work are easier to tune and dont require about 5000.00$ worth of stuff to "jet" it. If they made a Carb. X1 i would own one. Like i said earlier $2.50 or less jet orrrrrrr $35.00 just to remap your sytem at the dealer. Unless you have the power comander which will range up to $300.00 dollars and if you dont already have a laptop (cause you cant take your home Computer to the track unless you have a really tits trailer) $800 to $1500.00 Where is the head temp sensor on my M2 i rebuilt the top end twice and never saw one. <<<<<(not ment to sound sarcastic really want to know) | ||
| Jima4media |
In the racing world, how many cars use carburetors? Almost exactly none. They are all fuel injected and have elaborate ECMs and telemetry. Honda is now using Palm Pilots to up and down load info from Nicky Hayden's and Miguel Duhamel's bikes into Macintosh laptops. They can control pretty much anything that comes up in racing. Temperature, altitude, pressure, track differences, and so forth. I'm going to try to get some pictures of this stuff at Sears Point this weekend. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Sarodude |
I don't mean to seem argumentative, but race orgs like NASCAR have BANNED FI. The rules specify carbs. Re-mapping at the track? Unless you alter something on your motor, there is no need to re-map anything. (proper) FI should account for air density changes. Carbs are only easier to tune because they don't require a PC or laptop. I don't particularly enjoy unbolting intake components, getting messy with the float bowl, and fumbling for tools and jets or losing the silly circlip at the top of the needle. I've road raced 2 strokes - SUPREMELY touchy when it comes to jetting. I've paid my carburetion dues a plenty. I'd just rather ride / drive than get messy... -Saro | ||
| Aaron |
The rules for a number of racing series' specify carbs, in sports car, stock car, and drag racing. | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Nothing wrong with "driving then getting messy" If i were to ever get a crusing bike like a harley roadking or fatboy OHHHHH belive you me it would be a FI model but what i am saying is leave it an option to get FI or carb cause there are still old dinasaurs like myself who would rather "get messy" to tune my bike. | ||
| X1glider |
Saro, it already does. The map is an ideal baseline. The FI will make adjustments to conditions to try to achieve that baseline. If the map is less than perfect, the FI won't fix things. One reason to make map adjustments is to make the bike respond a specific way to what a track would dictate. If it's a tight technical track, you might want a less aggressive throttle for more control in the turns. If the track has lots of long straights, you might want the bike to snap your neck. Our local top-fuel drag racer, Johnny Mancuso, has his team adjusting the bike's power for the best traction/acceleration combo every time they run it. In his case it's the track's suface that dictates this. FI can't make those kind of adjustments. | ||
| Shot_Gun |
Saro, I think I need a 65' cable to reach my bike. Plus I'm not realy that smart!  I just figured out how to post a picture. You might have to school us.  | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Thank you X1glider some one who get what i am trying to say. Kinda the reason they out law FI in events like NASCAR so they dont have to extend down time for race teams cause the have to "re-boot" and carbs are just that much simpler. Think about it what was the first thing you learned in shop class Was it to rebuild a circut board or was it a carb? I dont mean to get off on a rant here , but Like X1 glider said you or the system cant reall fine tune adjust for certian track conditions. It will adjust for air density yeah but "oh shit the race is almost over and i blew an 02 sensor!!" "where is my computer" For thoes of us who do not have a huge parts truck following us to every track day with all the amenities of a dealerships service bay i'll stick by my adjustible from the side of the road or track with a pocketfull of small hand tools c-clips (if needed) and jets, Thank You BBS and have a great NIGHT! | ||
| Aaron |
Sanctioning bodies tend to dictate old technology to hold down costs more than anything. NASCAR is an interesting deal, the way the rules are written there's basically only one way to build a car. I'm not up on the latest (Tom? you out there?) but a few years ago, they required Ford 9" rears (no QC's), truck arm suspensions, H-M spindles, flat tappets (no rollers), 15x10 steel wheels, and a 3300lb minimum weight. Definitely not state of the art. Engines were limited to a 358" only. Trans-Am (which I used to dabble in) at one time had broad rules, they used to try to accomodate everything from turbo 4's to domestic V8's. Over the years they went more and more in the Nascar direction, narrowing the formula and coming up with only one way to build a car. Which I think is good. Obsoleted some of my stuff, for example, they banned independent rear suspensions, but overall good for the series. | ||
| X1glider |
Sorry Johnny, you didn't get idea that I don't agree with you. FI is the future, get used to the idea. I'd love to have an ECM that could be recalibrated with a Palm Pilot. Down time? Ha! Plug in and reflash the ECM in 1 microsecond. How long will it take you to disassemble everything, rejet and put the carb back together? Sensors? Durable as hell these days, no worries there. There can be several maps made for certain occasions. One for short track, long track, drag strip, normal, economy...just download the appropriate one. Even better, put a button on the dash. Much like the cars that "remember" settings like seat adjustment, mirrors, etc., push a button to access the appropriate program. Unfortunately we don't have this flexibility in our X1's ECM. But the potential is there. Wether or not, as an OEM, they WANT us to have it, is another story, most likely for compliance with the EPA and CARB. That's what the aftermarket is for and hopefully it will come to our rescue someday. It's a shame Buell is treated as the redheaded stepchild. The ricers seem to get all the fun stuff at this point in time. Hopefully you can now see FIs potential. | ||
| Buellhusker |
CARB = NO BATTRIES REQUIRED But truly injection is the way to go, fuel under pressure not having to rely on venturi, float. needle & seat. | ||
| X1glider |
Almost true Buellhusker, still need a battery to start the bike and spark it, unless you want to go back to kickstarts and magnetos. After looking at your profile, I was sure that you remember those days of having no signals on your bike. Not trying to pick on you being more "vintage" than me. I had a generator style sporty once. As for NASCAR, I know nothing but I can guess this, and it's in line with Aaron's comment. It's probably all carb to keep the playing field level. If one team has much more money to spend, they might have access to technology others just can't get a hold of. Then they'd keep winning and keep getting the money to buy more technology. Playing field wouldn't be level any more and wouldn't be fun to watch either. They do this in the Olympics too. I remember the stink with the high tech booties in the luge and the clap skates in '98. I have a feeling when there's enough FI stuff for everyone to choose from and it's affordable, we'll see FI in NASCAR too. | ||
| Jima4media |
Saro, I was talking about RACING cars, not NASCAR.  You know, like Formula 1, Le Mans, and CART type racing. NASCAR runs carburetors, and restrictor plates. And basically just turn left except for two tracks. They are just billboards in the shape of a the family Monte Carlo that go around an oval. They run carburetors, because most of the mechanics can't program a VCR.  X1Glider, You can program a Buell with a Palm Pilot - Dynojet has a loadload program for the Power Commander III, not that I'm going to defend that headache of a computer brain product. In fact a couple of guys from Dynojet have left to form their own company to do better adjustable ECMs.  Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Ken01mp |
well, most bracket racers run carbs. every aftermarket hot rod twin (Merch, pattrick racing, S&S, ect) all run carbs. ITS GOT TWO CYLINDERS! it doesnt need multi-port FI to be more efficient. it doesnt need 8 injectors, it just has one carb, and it works. the car industry has proved again and again, effiviency goes to FI while all out performance goes to the carb. the carb has been around for nearly a hundred years. A HUNDRED YEARS! while FI (electronic, not mechanical) has been around about a quarter as long. all told, the carb is well developed and advanced to its max, while EFI is still a child. in ten years, the story may be different, but right now, the carb is the way to go. the other way to look at it, EFI is a toy for the rich, while carbs are fun for us practical people. peace out and more power Ken | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Seeing as the hackers out nuber the Mechanics here 8 t0 1 i lay down my King As for keeping the playing field leve you are correct about the money and sponsors that is one of the main resons another is to see how there Mecahnics "who cant perform a VCR" can work wonders with an engine that is the same as every one elses. I can get more ponies out of the same carb kit than most people i know mainly cause i studied physics for 3 years. One of the reasons why i dont like and feel FI is not the ultimate for a bike. Now cars yes cause it aint the sixties any more HELL you cant even find the spark plugs on a car 2002 an up (with the exception of a few) But if they keep putting in this Technology it will get to a point and the bike you love and customized will be as throw away as cars are today. tell me any of you guys restored an old bike? Or even tried to get parts for any vehical over 10 hell some times 5 years old? Kinda hard aint it. Oh yeah no one ever did tell me where that elusive Head temp sensor was on my M2 | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Thanks Ken for your support, |
