| Author | Message | ||
     Tahoe_xbuelligan |
Has anyone ran the Trick 114 Racing fuel? Any thoughts? | ||
| M1combat |
Are you running ~12.5:1 compression? | ||
| Kowpow225 |
Tahoe and Donald Man you guys are up late! What M1 was 'I think' trying to say was there is no need for a higher octane gas in an XB. Studies have shown it gives no increase in performance and in some cases can actually cause a decrease. So in reality, there is no reason for race gas unless you're running some seriously high compression. If you have pinging issues, higher octane fuel can help. | ||
| Tahoe_xbuelligan |
I am running a stock XB12S with a race ecm, D&D slip on. In the past I have ran it in my Harleys at the track (fun drags). I live at a high altitude 6900 ft and was just wondering if I would get anything out of running the higher octane fuel. Trick also claims that it actually runs cooler than pump gas. | ||
| Diablobrian |
vp u4 is what we run for race gas. Roadracing world ran a comparison a couple of months back and vp u4 came out on top. as always your results may vary. | ||
| Tahoe_xbuelligan |
so if higher octane does not help with performance should I be buying 87 octane instead of 91? | ||
| Whodom |
Tahoe- "Excess" octane does you no good. Octane basically makes the fuel/air mixture harder to ignite; that's how it stops knocking. For max performance, run the lowest octane that doesn't knock. No doubt this is higher than 87 with an XB, but it probably doesn't require 114 to prevent knock. At your high altitude, your octane requirements should actually be lower than at sea level as peak combustion pressures in the engine will be lower. | ||
| Lucas70374 |
To high of a octane can hurt it more then help it, It would be like running acohol in a motor not designed for it. I would still run 93. In La we have 89,91, and 93 pump gas. | ||
| Diablomichael |
Not all hi performance gasoline products are high in octane. Check out Vps U-4 . It is oxygenated. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Studies have shown it gives no increase in performance and in some cases can actually cause a decrease." I sure would like to see that "study". I've often heard that using an octane rating higher than necessary can actually decrease performance, but I've never actually seen a credible source that stated this outright. Would you mind sharing where you came by this information. | ||
| Signguyxb12 |
"I sure would like to see that "study". I've often heard that using an octane rating higher than necessary can actually decrease performance, but I've never actually seen a credible source that stated this outright. " it's true and i have seen it first hand... the VP fuel guy explained it this way: higher octane fuel are harder to lite and take longer to burn (or resist burning, that is why they can help with detonation). so if a motor doesn't have the proper advancement on the timing and the proper compression ratio then the performance can be effected. that is why my asphalt drag snowmobile went slower with higher octane...so he said he was right... changed fuels and the quarter mile times came back | ||
| Blake |
Racing fuel is much much more than just higher octane gasoline. Racing fuel is to pump gasoline as synthetic oil is to organic mineral oil. Racing fuel is generally much much more volatile than gasoline, meaning that it will vaporize much more easily/quickly, thus producing much superior complete combustion. Think of racing fuel as being comprised of only the very best hydrocarbon molecules for a particular engine application while pump gas is comprised of a hodge podge of hydrocarbon molecules, some good, some not so good for peak performance. That said, I use pump gas when I race on account of I'm a cheap-skate.  | ||
| Tahoe_xbuelligan |
Ok, heres the report. I put a half tank of the pump gas in and 1/2 of the Trick. Went out and put 70 or so miles on the clock with the mixture. It definitely makes a difference. It also has a different smell to it that are lubricants according to the guy I spoke with at my local speed shop. As M1 said (is that guy ever wrong?) it is most noticeable in high compression engines. I will save the rest for a track day... I cant afford 8 dollars a gallon for minimal performance gains. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"it's true and i have seen it first hand..." I'm not disputing your observations, but I'm still waiting to see a report based on sound research and engineering principles. I'm not disagreeing that using a higher than necessary octane rating will hurt power, I'd just like a scientific explanation why. | ||
| Benm2 |
I don't know if the XB has an O2 sensor, I think it does. Alot of race gas has lead in it, and it will ruin your oxygen sensor! | ||
| Cmm213 |
VP has I think has close to 30 different mixtures I got a book of them around here some where. There are designed for everyones different motor need, I have quite a few friends that run a 95 oct that or local oil company has on pump. I always see bikes filling up with it. | ||
| Tomd |
Hi All, Wow, good thread, lots of stuff covered here. I'm going to try to answer a few of the questions left out there. First, too much "octane" CAN hurt performance. That being said, the type of engines that suffer this problem are ultra high RPM engines with over square bore/stroke ratios, not 45 degree V-Twins turning less than 8000 RPM. In the '60's, Honda had a 5 cyl 125cc road racing bike that could only run 85 octane fuel as there wasn't enough time to let slower burning fuel burn at the 18,000 to 21,000 RPM range that the engine ran at. One of the posts mentioned a snowmobile that suffered this type of problem, As most snowmobiles are three cyl 2-stroke engines. Two-stroke engines are more sensitive to fuel burning rates than 4-strokes. Since the entire combustion event must take place before the piston descends to the point of uncovering the exhaust port, they mimic very high RPM 4 strokes. Given that they have half the effective stroke length, a 2-stroke running at 9000RPM could need the same burning rate fuel as a 4-stroke running at 18,000. That's not a hard and fast rule, only a point of reference. Second, one post mentioned quality of components. Absolutely true. Racing fuel should have the highest quality hydrocarbons and additives that are allowed by the rules. Racing fuels are blended to specific specs for different type engines. Compression ratio is only one of the many aspects that is taken into consideration when the blends are developed. Some of these factors are: piston speed, dome shape, combustion chamber shape, bore, cyl pressure at peak load, RPM range, naturally aspirated or supercharged, camshaft etc. Third, higher octane fuels are harder to "light", ehhhhh maybe true, maybe not, depends on a lot of factors. Common wisdom would dictate that a fuel that resisted detonating would be harder to start to burn. But you have to think of "octane" not as a fuels ability to burn or resist burning, but as a rating system, reflecting how well the fuel maintains it's optimum burn rate as the combustion event occurs. Fourth, most racing fuels are "leaded" or contain metallic additives designed to control burning rates and detonation. Buells have O2 sensors that will plate with these metallic additives and may fail after as little as 1 tank full. Make sure your choice is "unleaded" Whew, that was a lot of typing. Hope I answered some of the lingering questions. I’m just looking to share some of the experience I have gained through racing cars and bikes since the 70’s. My 2 cents, Tom | ||
| Blake |
Thanks for sharing your big hairy fuel wisdom Tom. I love learning stuff like this! BadWeB rocks! | ||
| Martin |
Where can I buy this big hairy fuel? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
If you run big hairy fuel, you have to replace the fuel filter more often. | ||
| Tomd |
Hi, If you run big hairy fuel you actually have to change the filter less often as the hair acts as a pre-filter. However some people find if they run big hairy fuel, they have to change their underwear more often due to staining issues... :-) Tom | ||
| Kowpow225 |
DJ. I don't remember exactly where I saw the info about fuel octane. Let me rephrase, 'general testing' should have been used in place of 'studies' in my previous post. Now is that better? | ||
| Craigster |
I agree with Blake and Tom, There are a lot of books and articles that say racing fuel will not make more power. I belive as general rule that is true (we've all heard the BS stories of the mysterious race gas some guy's uncle ran in his old harley to make it go fast). However there are many advances in race fuels today and I have seen some fuels produce more power than others with no other changes to engine's config. With fuel and ignition optimised I have seen a 4% power increase with some fuels. It may sound small, but 4% on a 170 hp bike is nearly 7 hp. |
