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Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 06:33 am: | 
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M1, that shipping weight includes the packaging materials...so it will be even less. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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The patent belongs to Erik Buell
Do Honda & HD not have patent cross license agreements? |
Buells Rule!
(Dyna in disguise)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 06:05 pm: |
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Design flaw?
Come on now Court, I realize you arent going to go on record & say anything other than whats expected but do honestly consider a full ti underseat system that weighs much less than some other manufacturer systems...& performs very well also...is a flaw?
The small amount of weight under the seat is not enough to even notice by anyone, the handling is not affected by it, the motor breathes the way it was designed to. Now if you were to take a tuber muffler & try cramming it under the seat of a bike...that weight would surely be noticed but in todays world with the materials being used the placement of a muffler is almost a non issue.
Someone should call Kawi & tell them the muffler placement for their ZX6R is all wrong. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 05:24 am: |
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>>>Do Honda & HD not have patent cross license agreements?
I do not know. But, Honda will need one if they ever build the NAS. But, since they'll need one for the brake as well, they may get a package deal. The NAS is to Buell what the term "loosely quoted" is to public speaking.
>>>>>the handling is not affected by it
That's an inaccurate statement, unless the basic laws of physics have been repealed there in Wisconsin.
But I will concede that the word "flaw" may be a bit harsh. Let's just say it's a design that emphasizes the designer trumping the engineer and sacrifices function for style. That's about as precise as you can get.
Folks, in my opinion, have this mental picture of what a "sportbike" should look like. Many manufactures cater to them, eschewing spending much time on basic improvements or investing the time and money (like Buell did at Homecoming) to educate their customers.
I want my bike built by machinists not marketers.
The good news is that now the XB platform has become the reliability leader, Buell processes and procedures are drawing great attention. As folks copy processes, surely some design will bleed in.
Don't get me wrong....I think the sportbikes from other manufacturers are dandy and certainly high-tech. I just giggle at how they do certain things to make these kids line up to buy them.
Court |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 05:45 am: |
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Don't get me wrong....I think the sportbikes from other manufacturers are dandy and certainly high-tech. I just giggle at how they do certain things to make these kids line up to buy them.
But they certainly are buying them... |
BadS1
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 08:13 am: |
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Court who wrote that Buell is now the reliability leader??What magazine??I like my Buell but have never read that.I know JB gave them an award but I think that was for design.All mags I've read basically are saying they have come a long way. |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
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quote:Someone should call Kawi & tell them the muffler placement for their ZX6R is all wrong.
While they're at it they should tell them that their power delivery comes on about 8k rpm too late and that their front wheel is too heavy, but let's save that for another thread.
I understand that utilizing lightweight materials allows an underseat exhaust to have a minimal effect on handling, but the fact is that there are better designs out there. What would happen to the MOI of the ZX6R if the muffler was placed under the bike? Where does Kawasaki put the exhaust on their MotoGP bike? If putting the exhaust under the bike isn't a better design then why did they do it on their premier race bike? |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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quote:Where does Kawasaki put the exhaust on their MotoGP bike? If putting the exhaust under the bike isn't a better design then why did they do it on their premier race bike?
Did you look at the pictures above of the RCV & the GSVR?
Seems the 6RR is having no trouble in the handling department, as witnessed by its AMA Supersport performances. Difficult to say whether moving the muffler would may it faster. It does seem quite a bit faster than the FX Buells, though.
Now, before a new flame fest starts about lap times & supersport bike comparisons, the whole point is there is more than one way to skin a cat. Muffler mounting position is based on a combination of engineering & "other" design considerations. The Buell location is convenient for mass centralization, considering that the stock muffler is very heavy. It is heavy because it needs to withstand the engines vibration.
Besides not being "mass centralized", moving the muffler from beneath a Buell would contribute to its untimely death from cantilevered vibration loading.
However, that does NOT mean that a design that blocks a fair amount of left side engine maintenance AND can shear exhaust studs on the right can't be improved. |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
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quote:Did you look at the pictures above of the RCV & the GSVR?
Yep. Only a minimal portion of the exhaust actually rises up out from under the bike. Those designs are much closer to the Buell design than they are to the ZX6R design.
quote:However, that does NOT mean that a design that blocks a fair amount of left side engine maintenance AND can shear exhaust studs on the right can't be improved.
I don't think anyone is claiming that the Buell design can't be improved. What is being claimed is that there are better places to put a muffler than the side of the bike or under the tail. Besides, what maintenance is blocked on the left side on an XB? How would putting the muffler under the tail prevent crash damage on the header? To prevent crash damage on the header you'd have to re-route the header which would be quite difficult considering where the exhaust ports are located on the heads. How many cases of broken exhaust studs due to crash damage have we actually seen? What would happen to the cam cover if it was hit with enough force to snap the exhaust studs? |
S1eric
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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Say what you want about muffler placement, But those bikes they sell to "kids", always seem to
Win on the race tracks & and show rooms.
They must not upset handling to much, Because
they just keep on winning & winning.
Maybe they have engineers too.
S1Eric |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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Don't really know what maintenance might be blocked on the XB, 'cause I've got an M2. On it, the muffler blocks primary adjustment & transmission drain plug access. And, its already aftermarket so its smaller than stock.
Putting the muffler under the tail would not prevent crash damage to the header. The header would have to be rerouted. IF the header was rerouted such that it didn't touch down first, it might push the collector rearward. If the collector gets pushed rearward, something like the GSVR setup might work.
Don't really know what might happen to the cam cover if it were to touch down. The timing cover is pretty flimsy. A new cam cover with a 4-bolt aluminum gasketed timing cover might improve its resistance as well.
I do know that racers try very hard to keep their bikes running on the track. If a crash wipes out a footpeg & a clutch lever, you should be able to make it back out pretty quickly. If you shear an exhaust stud, that could take longer.
Or, if you land on the clutch side and grind off the nub that protect the cable entrance down to the primary cover o-ring, you could be done.
I've seen alot of racebikes that appear to have been dragged behind their owners cars on the way to the track. As race parts are expensive enough, potential ways to improve their resistance to unplanned pavement abrasive degradation can never be a bad thing. |
Buells Rule!
(Dyna in disguise)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 01:04 pm: |
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Say what you want about muffler placement, But those bikes they sell to "kids", always seem to
Win on the race tracks & and show rooms.
They must not upset handling to much, Because
they just keep on winning & winning.
Maybe they have engineers too.
Well stated. |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 02:18 pm: |
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quote:Don't really know what maintenance might be blocked on the XB, 'cause I've got an M2. On it, the muffler blocks primary adjustment & transmission drain plug access. And, its already aftermarket so its smaller than stock.
I understand what you mean about the M2. On my M2 I gave up on trying to get the drain plug past the muffler and just found an excuse to remove the primary cover every time I needed to change the fluid. On my XB I've yet to have any trouble with maintenance due to the muffler. Draining the fluid and adjusting the primary chain are now clean and easy. That aspect of the design was improved three years ago.
quote:I do know that racers try very hard to keep their bikes running on the track. If a crash wipes out a footpeg & a clutch lever, you should be able to make it back out pretty quickly. If you shear an exhaust stud, that could take longer.
Agreed, but when was the last time we saw an exhaust stud sheared off due to crash damage? It doesn't seem to a problem that justifies changing the location of the exhaust. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 05:17 pm: |
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I do not know. But, Honda will need one if they ever build the NAS. But, since they'll need one for the brake as well, they may get a package deal.
My guess would be they already have one. Big companies tend to do that with each other. It's the little companies that get screwed in patent wars.
Here is an enlightening story about patents if the subject interests you:
http://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/0624/044.html |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 07:30 pm: |
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I want my bike built by machinists not marketers.
But they certainly are buying them...
But those bikes they sell to "kids", always seem to Win on the race tracks & and show rooms.
Some thoughts....
I think Erik Buell and his cohorts turn out some brilliant motorcycles. I think they are exceptional engineers.
I suspect that Honda, Suzuiki, and the rest have brilliant engineers working for them. They could build a bike like a Buell if the company decided to. They don't because their market research tells them that most people want something else.
Thats a fine way to run a company, and it makes customers happy. But if you either aren't like everyone else, or don't want to be like everyone else, then it sucks for you.
Erik decided to make a bike for the people who didn't like the bikes like everyone else liked. Given that, it should come as no supprise that the people who DID like the existing bikes aren't flocking to the Buells. Nor that the Buells, which were designed to be different from the race bikes, don't do as well in races. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 07:56 pm: |
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In a 600cc four cylinder class, a 600 four cylinder will win. This has nothing to do with whether the Buell muffler placement is better. It just plain is. Why hasn't anyone else done it? Can't you folks imagine for once that American ingenuity exists? Are you convinced the Japanese know everything?
Kawasaki is just starting to go where they need to go to improve to the next step. Others will follow. Probably by the time they have inside out single discs and underslung mufflers and fuel in the frame no one will remember it started with Buell. And it will be from the brilliant minds overseas.
And to think this is a Buell chat page. One can only imagine the tone on an import chat page. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 08:09 pm: |
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When a bike is marketed in a direction to attract "black sheep", does it really surprise you that there may be controversial opinions? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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The people that matter know. I ran into two different riders this weekend and had a chat with each.
Rider #1... Guy with full gear on an older speed triple, we had a great talk about the merits of the triple, and the merits of Buells. We both knew a lot about each others bikes, and appreciated their strengths. He was leaving a house about a mile from me, where the guy works nights and during days and weekends does bike tuning on his personal dyno (on a trailer). The triple rider also had a Ducatti 996, but was riding the triple because it was "more fun", and clearly put my XB in that exact same catagory. We discussed what tires would be best for each bike, taking into consideration riding goals and number of expected track days.
Rider #2... Saw a sportbike dissapearing down a twisty road near here I had not been down before, and decided to follow to see if he was going down any nice routes. I am still learning the area. It is a pretty twisty road, and I am riding at a pretty calm pace, but closing on this guy like he is standing still. Ahhh... we come around a corner, and there is a cop on the road. I figure the guy just has too many points on his license, and knew the cop was there, and so was being extra cool. No problem. But then, after we were still LONG out away from the cop, he still keeps slowing down to 15mph for turns I would take without thinking at 35, and could do aggressivly at more like 50. Huh? So we stop and chat. What kind of bike is that he asks. A Buell I say. How fast will it go he asks? Its about broad power bands and great handling, twins aren't built for top speeds. He answers "huh"? I was trying to figure out what bike he was riding, the fairing was smashed and primered, the tank was smashed. What bike is that? I ask. A Honda 929 (I think) he answered. I asked if thats the twin or the inline four (I can never remember which is the superhawk, and which is the inline four). "I don't know" the guy answers. I look through the fairing and see at least three headers.... "Ah, it's the inline four". "OK" he says.
The first guy, the guy on the triple, will remember who brought into a single perfectly sorted production package the fuel in the frame, the exhaust in the right place, a workable perimiter brake with super light front wheel, oil in the swingarm, zero lash drive train, and litre bike low end grunt with handling that can embarasses 600's.
The second guy, provided he lives until then, will think it was Japanese innovation when he first sees it on the yamazuki gsxyzfrr600. Actually, he would, if he could understand any of it, but he won't. He will just buy his next bike because somebody told him it will do 180mph. His won't, of course, because his carbs are not synced, have not been rejetted for the pipe he is using, and the damn thing won't even idle without blipping the thottle, and his fairing is held together with duct tape (literally). But he will want it anyway, because somebody told him it's fast.
There is scripture for this... "Don't throw your pearls before swine"... it wastes your time, energy, and abilities, sucks the life out of you, and steals from those that are ready to appreciate what you have done. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 05:02 am: |
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"...considering that the stock muffler is very heavy. It is heavy because it needs to withstand the engine's vibration."
Think again. Think jacking points. Think curb impacts. Now you are getting it.  |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 05:07 am: |
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>>>>>But they certainly are buying them...
That's an ACCURATE statement, they sell like hot cakes. But sales numbers are not an accurate metric of the things we are discussing. Do you think a child in Bermuda shorts, slippers and a ball cap based a purchase decision on pure engineering data. These guys disproportionately paste bikes onto guardrails and buy "graphics". It's not to infer they are not bad bikes, just that the "bait" is not engineering.
>>>I suspect that Honda, Suzuiki, and the rest have brilliant engineers working for them.
Another ACCURATE statement. In fact, those who have visited the Buell Basement have seen the stack of letters from Honda R&D in Torrance, CA. A good friend of mine leads the effort and another great friend (Joe Boyd - killed in the Honda testing accident at Willow) was their lead test engineer. Joe and I used to sneak (some recall the photo of the Yellow S-1 near Borega Springs) into the CA backroads and compare notes. Honda, please quote me, has some of the most brilliant engineering staff on this earth...ditto their marketers. Few in America realize how big the company is. Honda has more folks designing and engineering silver and red lawn mowers than HD has employees.
>>>Court who wrote that Buell is now the reliability leader??What magazine??
No magazine that I am aware of, but then I (like 71% of registered owners of motorcycles) seldom read motorcycle magazines, they are pretty much advertising.
The BLASTR changed everything. The project came to Buell quite by accident and saw Buell developing, well a whole new way of "Developing".
Buell has been busier (while many were complaining about lack of new models) designing PROCESSES, not motorcycles.
This is a good thing and will make Buell (in fact, already is within certain communities) a world leader.
Manufacturers track a metric "Warranty $$ per unit manufactured" as one simple and quick metric. Buell has what is a bit of a disadvantage due to numbers, in that 10 documented problems represented a far more significant percentage of Buell production than say for a run of 75,000 CBRs...Buell HAD to be better.
The Blast and XB's folks...just don't break. Issues have been few....in fact, unbelievably few. To make the story sweeter, Buell has done things that other manufacturers (and they did this while some in the Buell community were whining about parts availability and moaning the certain demise of Buell) only dream of. Buell has systems in place that QUICKLY bring ANY defect to light and instantly cause remedial gears to turn.
CASE IN POINT: The recent recall of XB sidestands. Total number (out of a years production) was something like 109 units! Think....2.53 days of production and the rat is in the cage. Requires a screw 0.1 inches longer.
TOTAL COST OF RECALL 109 X $.03 = $3.27
Wait....a recall that costs less than a Big Mac?
Anyone here in manufacturing wanna comment on that? Folks from Japan are finding it interesting enough that many are coming to the Buell factory, confounded and in dismay chanting "you CAN'T have humans build ANYTHING by hand and get these results". The proof is in the pudding.
The above examples are not actual numbers they ARE accurate "order of magnitude". Nothing here is intended to infer that other bikes aren't "good". I own other brands and have another "another brand" in my gun sights. I also own 3 different brands of guitar. But a STRAT IS A STRAT.
Court |
Monorad
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 09:43 am: |
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Court, that is the best post I've read on this board. Thanks for the insight. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
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Buell as John Henry |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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Alex:
You are welcome. Like your website, looks like you and I haunt the same 'hood.
Court
Actually taken in Harlem and it looks like you are in Greenpoint or Williamsburg. |
Metalstorm
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 02:07 pm: |
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Blake, thanks for that insight to "curb impact". I hadn't thought of that and it makes me like the steel muffler even more. I got a cg with even less ground clearance and it's nice to know that the pipe can most likely withstand a "gentle" impact on a speed bump.
What I like most about the stock pipe is that all that steel low to the ground triggers traffic lights really well out where I'm at. Way better than my Sporty which was basically a big beautiful hunk of metal.
Kudos to Buell for their design & choice of materials. I think it was a good choice for a street bike.
Kudos to Kevin as well. That pipe may be placed wrong in the eyes of us Buellers but it's a very nice pipe craftsmanship wise. And he made yet another customer happy. That's a good thing. |
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