| Author | Message | ||
     Geoffg |
I was speaking to Buell Canada today, and the question of oil came up--I asked if Buell really would void my warranty if I used non H-D oil in my new bike (the dealership had given me a dire warning about this). What I was told was that, no, Buell would not void the warranty--but they might disallow warranty claims on the engine if it was found that I was not running H-D oil and filter. I was told they might go so far as to analyze the oil to see if it was H-D or not (riiiight!). In their words, I would be "playing with fire" if I chose to run anything other than H-D brand oil. Anyone know the real deal? Should I go to the trouble of buying H-D oil (nearest dealership is 4 hours away, next closest is 6 hours) just in case I have a warranty claim? Is this kind of thing only true outside the US, where you've got the Magnussen-Moss act to protect you? (As a side note, I'll comment that I do have a bit of H-D brand oil on hand--after delivery, I removed more than 650cc to bring the level down to "full". The transmission oil, however, was a bit low...). | ||
| Jan_lee |
i look at it this way. if your going to run HD than run synthetic, if your going to run synthetic than run it in both engine and tranny(you can do this). then next time your out buy a couple of filters and a case of full synth. but they are a little salty if you ask me. but if you going to run synthetic out of warranty then run motul or mobile 1 but that is only my opinion. | ||
| Xb12scg05 |
I really dont believe the motor company can tell you that you must use there oil especially after they said for years that synthetic oil has been documented to cause roller bearings to slide rather than roll and then come out with syn3 | ||
| Ejiii |
I currently work in customer relations for a major OEM. There is no law that says you must use a specific brand of oil and only that brand. As long as you use oil that meets all the SAE/API and other classifications specified in the owners manual or other service data you can use any brand or petroleum based or synthetic oil out there, period. Save all your receipts for all the oil you have purchased. If you ever have an engine problem, and you probably won't and they deny warranty coverage due to not using a specific oil brand you will win in court. We would send the oil out for analysis, we do it all the time. It's cheap and easy but we are looking for contamination, etc. not brand. | ||
| Bake |
I was told the same thing by the same people. Funny I bought a new Ford truck in November and they don't care what oil I run..... It's a money grab and a shoddy one as far as I am concerned. | ||
| Navygunner |
Ditto. | ||
| Wardog3187 |
I would like to quote an old 1st Sergeant that I knew when I was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division; "It's all a communist conspiracy!" | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
Go with what it says in your warranty that they provided at the time of purchase. Warranties are generally expressly made in writing. If it says you must use HD oil, or else void your warranty, then that's that. | ||
| Rr_eater |
But see DC, that is NOT the case in the US. If they(read any manufacturer) are to MANDATE a type of oil for use in accordance with their warranty policy, the oil must be supplied by them free of charge for the duration of the warranty period. If they actually could do it, they would be "cornering the market resources", and again, that is against the law. As stated above, the lubricant must meet the criteria set forth by the manufacturer (usually SAE certificaztion). Now if they were smart, they would make their own oil meet a special criteria chemically, and then they could say you must use that criteria oil, and then they could be the only ones who make or carry it, but that costs time and money, but they still have given the aftermarket the ability to supply the oil if they like, so eventually they lose out anyway, as that is what the aftermarket does to the T!! Just be smart, dont use some cheap crap oil, change it regularly, and I really doubt you will have any problems when warranty time rolls around, unless you only change oil when it looks like roofing tar!! Just my .02 Bruce | ||
| Outrider |
Gee, I wonder if Geoff's dealer sells any oil other than Harley's Private Label Stuff? If yes, I wonder why? | ||
| Scitz |
I've also heard this from car dealers before. They just want you to bring your bike in every time you need an oil change or buy your supplies from them. If you change the oil yourself and it's under warranty keep a log and all receipts each time you change the oil. My brother had a car that had an engine failure under warranty and he had to provide documentation that the oil was changed on a regular basis for the warranty company to accept the claim. | ||
| Bigbird |
Now if they were smart, they would make their own oil meet a special criteria chemically, and then they could say you must use that criteria oil, and then they could be the only ones who make or carry it, but that costs time and money, but they still have given the aftermarket the ability to supply the oil if they like, so eventually they lose out anyway, as that is what the aftermarket does to the T!! Perhaps they are smarter than you think. The real deal is that H-D does not specifically mandate the brand of engine oil you must use. However, just like any other engine manufacturer, H-D does provide a specification that the oil you use must meet or exceed. That specification is HD-360. Exactly what is HD-360? I don't know, and I don't believe the data that makes up the HD-360 specification is available to the public. From what I am told only Harley-Davidson's oils have been tested and proven to comply with the HD-360 spec. Is it possible that other oils out there meet or exceed HD-360? Sure it is! The problem is that no one knows, because none of those other oils have been tested and approved by Harley-Davidson, the originators of the HD-360 spec. Why on earth would they certify an oil that they don't sell? Funny I bought a new Ford truck in November and they don't care what oil I run..... They sure do care. Try running a straight 10 weight oil in that truck. After the main and rod bearings turn to dust and you need a new engine tell them that you were running straight 10 weight oil and watch how quickly your claim gets denied. Or if they decide to do an oil analysis (yes, they actually do this sometimes) see how quickly they deny the claim. Like Harley-Davidson, Ford is not going to put anywhere in writing that you must use their oil. However, they will tell you that you must use an oil that conforms to a specific Ford spec, API spec, and/or weight. An example would be "only 0w20 oils that meet or exceed API service spec SL can be used". In the car business those oils are readily available from any auto parts store. The owners manual to my '05 Jetta TDI very specifically states that only oils conforming to VW spec 502.01 can be used, and serious engine damage can result from using other oils. Any damage caused by the use of the wrong oil will not be covered under warranty. Notice that they are very careful to avoid saying you must use only the oil they sell. They simply state that it must conform to 502.01. When you go to purchase oil for that VW you will find that in the USA the only oil readily available that conforms to spec 502.01 is made by Castrol, and is not currently available in the auto parts stores. The only place people have been able to find it so far is (yep, you guessed it!) at the VW dealership. The truth is that you have a miniscule chance of ever having an engine failure if you maintain the motorcycle properly. However, for extra peace of mind why WOULDN'T you want to do what they say? Oil and filters are easily ordered over the phone from any one of a host of Harley-Davidson/Buell dealers and can be shipped in a variety of ways. When it comes down to it it's actually easier than those of us who can make a trip to a local dealer! (Message edited by bigbird on March 22, 2005) | ||
| Mikej |
I've read reports of people fighting this oil specific deal and winning by placing the burden of proof on the manufacturer that the owner's chosen oil is inferior. If they specify a specification that you must meet then you should be able to get a copy of that specification, request this in writing and give them in writing 30 days to reply. Then file the letter away with your warranty paperwork. Only you can decide if it's worth the hassle. As noted above, Harley dealerships often said to not use synthetic oil in Harley engines, UNTIL Harley began branding synthetic oils. Sometimes it isn't worth the cost of the fight, that is what they bank on. Sometimes it's just easier to just buy something else instead. YMMV. | ||
| Chainsaw |
However, for extra peace of mind why WOULDN'T you want to do what they say? If the HD oil and filters were competitively priced this would not be an issue. | ||
| Mikej |
Plus he said his nearest dealership is 4 hours away. | ||
| Jlnance |
This is a rather classic piece written by the CEO of Amsoil giving his take on the oil business: http://www.advanced-synthetics.com/drive_harley_davidson.htm Hope you all find it interesting. | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
Rr_eater, You are absolutely right. That's why the warranty in US does not expressly state that we must use HD oil. I was referring to outside US, like Canada. I'm not sure Canada has a comparable Magnussen-Moss act. | ||
| Uwgriz |
I'm not a lawyer, but who is the warrantor of the bikes in Canada? The language in the act addresses the warrantor of the product not the warrantee. So if the warrantor is HD-US (which I somehow doubt), my thinking is the act would apply, regardless of where the product is. More likely though is that HD-Canada is a separate company so my ramblings don't mean anything. | ||
| Uwgriz |
However, for extra peace of mind why WOULDN'T you want to do what they say? Why should we allow ourselves to be screwed out of our money while the great banana we call warranty coverage is dangled over our heads while someone sits by singing "Dance for me you little monkies." when all you have to do is know the facts and you'll get the banana. Little story for anyone who would rather not be working right now. Heather's mom is in a group of women rider's who one day all had kind of a "maintenance party" with her dad and myself helping to go through all the bikes. One of the women had a new sporty and said she given the standard line that many of us have heard only even more so. She was told that the dealer had to do all routine maintenance or her warranty would not be honored so she was spending gobs of money at every oil change interval because a dealer with a banana was telling her out right lies. It wasn't my bike or my money, but that kind of thing pisses me off. | ||
| Thepup |
BigBird,my Buell owners manual says to use HD-360 or oil with a CF-4,CH-4,CG-4,CI-4 API rating.Any oil used for Diesel engines have this rating. (Message edited by thepup on March 22, 2005) | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
I also referenced my manual. Geoff, show that dealer the "or" in between HD-360 and the other ratings... "or" indicates either the Harley oil "or" any other with those specific ratings. Run what you want... | ||
| Bake |
<Funny I bought a new Ford truck in November and they don't care what oil I run..... They sure do care. Try running a straight 10 weight oil in that truck> Bigbird you got me.... only the discussion was which oil manafacturer, not weights | ||
| Geoffg |
Thepup and Charlieboy, thanks--but my owner's manual only lists a "Harley-Davidson rating," HD 360. I'll check when I get the service manual... Ya know, I wouldn't have a problem using H-D oil, if it was a) locally available, and b) realistically priced. But there is also the whole attitude of H-D that annoys me here--I've owned a few other vehicles in the past, and I've never been told to use a particular brand of oil. Sure, they can tell me what SAE specs my oil needs to conform to, but this H-D 360 stuff is just BS, I'm thinking. For just a bit more about what I was told, the guy at Trev Deeley Imports (Buell Canada) made a lot of noise about how Harley engines use roller bearings, not plain, etc. etc. | ||
| Geoffg |
Oh, and BTW, I do believe in using good quality oils, and changing them religiously at or before the listed period--and I always change filter at the same time, too. | ||
| Uwgriz |
You know, I'm really surprised we don't hear/haven't heard more from the oil manufacturers on this. They should be livid about the stuff that people have been told. | ||
| Bigbird |
Why should we allow ourselves to be screwed out of our money while the great banana we call warranty coverage is dangled over our heads while someone sits by singing "Dance for me you little monkies." when all you have to do is know the facts and you'll get the banana. Its no secret that you can buy stuff at a discount from some aftermarket shops and other places, you just have to shop around. But I will say that I have been surprised to find that it doesn't matter whether it is a Buell, Harley-Davidson, Suzuki, BMW, or anything in between, Harley-Davidson oil filters and oil are priced about the same as every other manufacturer's offerings. The oil filter for my Suzuki V-Strom (the same filter many of their bikes use) was $13.00 at the dealer! A chrome Harley filter is cheaper than that! Furthermore I've found that certain aftermarket suppliers charge even more than the dealer for their oil & filters. For instance, where I work we sell Syn3 for $8.25 per quart. At Iron Pony (a large national retail/mail order motorcycle parts business which happens to be located close to my work) every synthetic motorcycle oil on their shelves that was possibly suitable for a Harley-Davidson or Buell ranged from $9.00-$10.50 per quart! BigBird,my Buell owners manual says to use HD-360 or oil with a CF-4,CH-4,CG-4,CI-4 API rating.Any oil used for Diesel engines have this rating. If that is what your manual says then you have your answer. As others have stated not all manuals list the SAE equivalents. Plus he said his nearest dealership is 4 hours away. That's why God invented UPS! | ||
| Scitz |
I got a WIX oil filter from my local major chain auto parts store for the standard price of an auto oil filter. | ||
| Court |
I still maintain that for most of us, particularly given the frequent change intervals, it makes darn little difference. I'd bet if you used the HD lube (I did in all my HD's) and changed it like very 1,000 miles, any differences are insignificant. I've put Mobil 1 in my Ford F-250 every 3,000 for the last 150,000 miles hoping it'll see me to 200,000. Court | ||
| Jlnance |
I've put Mobil 1 in my Ford F-250 every 3,000 for the last 150,000 miles hoping it'll see me to 200,000 I wonder if you could have saved enough money by not using Mobil 1 to buy a new engine? | ||
| Court |
>>>I wonder if you could have saved enough money by not using Mobil 1 to buy a new engine? No. 150,000 / 3,000 intervals = 50 oil changes x 6 qts/change x 3 per quart marginal increase = 900 marginal cost of oil to date (for the record several hundrd less than I paid for the new heater core) Assuming 5,000 for a new motor from Ford and 2,000 to install it that's about 7,000K. I earn just a tad over 7 bucks an hour and to commute by public transportation will add hours per day (S5 bus - Ferry - "N" train - car service) to my schedule which yesterday started at 3:30AM and I got home at 10:20. So now I'd be working essentially 23.5 hours per day (yes, I'd be saving the 23/day in tolls). Actually Tuesday and Thursday nights are advanced math at NYU and now I'm even lost...you do the math. By the way, worn though my truck may be, it's nice when you take it in for inspection at 98,000 and the guy looks at the engine and thinks it's "new". This is the one thing I am Henrik about. Court | ||
| Uwgriz |
Court, what year is your truck? If it's 2004 or later, I have a couple of questions about the heater core failure. | ||
| Jlnance |
By the way, worn though my truck may be, it's nice when you take it in for inspection at 98,000 and the guy looks at the engine and thinks it's "new". That sums up pretty well why my question is ultimatly irrelivant. People don't really care about the economics. They want their engines to be in perfect shape throughout the life of the vehicle. I'm not saying it should be different either. I run synthetic oil in my Blast, and I still change it at the recomended interval for dino oil. I have a feeling that the economics of that are terriable. But I like knowing I have good oil in there. | ||
| Court |
>>>>People don't really care about the economics. You nailed it. In a city where I pay $47 to park for two hours, I'm not too up for sweating the $3/Qt differnece. I've long been an advocate that the cheap oil you buy at Gas-4-Less, changed regularly, will probably do just as well. Face it, the current standards, that apply to even the lowest grade oil, are light years ahead of where they were. I also feel like I am getting a deal buying Mobil 1 by the case at Costco. I'm probably not the only one here who washes and waxes under the hood of my vehicle. The inside, given to tromping through the mud daily to drive home looks like crap, but the truck is as tight as it was the day I bought it. Besides, by keeping the inside trashy, Henrik only borrows it periodically and he's a fit for months following complaining about how I could ever live in there. I buy happy meals and throw on the floor before he drives it. Life has it's little pleasures.  Court | ||
| Nedwreck |
"If your Harley Davidson dealer takes issue with you using AMSOIL Synthetic Motorcycle oil, and tells you that it will affect your Warranty if you don't use their OEM oil, refer to the Magnuson - Moss Act (1977) which states that if a Dealer requires you to use their parts or accessories, they must supply them "Free of Charge." I'll mention that the next time I get my bike serviced. =) Bob | ||
| Buellman39 |
This should answer alot of questions about using synthetic oil. Read the whole story, then let me know how you feel. PART 1: Today's topic seams to be motor oil related. I am a NASA Engineer at Marshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new, after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000 miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any you will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also aggressive in racing. Other notes on motor oils. Do not run a multi grade oil (10w-30) more then 1000 to 2000 miles - depending on your driving habits. This is because a 10w30 oil starts its life as a 10 weight oil and large polymer chains are added to get the 30 rating. These chains break down very quickly which produces small chains with an open electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form sludge. Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard. The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what you pay for. I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me for more information or search the web for more details on synthetics. Your Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils. Phil Hall Part 2: I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last 3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils - synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding thickeners like polymer chains. Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000 miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics. Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY REDUCED. A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out. Next test: DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ¼ of the synthetic oil in an old frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the changes in viscosity between the oils. Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work. Phil Hall Part 3: The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils - cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large data base. Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches. New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference, but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. Remember - the bigger the badder. 3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing to run Havoline 30 wt, so its data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 miles is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188, and at 10,000 miles is .0194. So, at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better lubrication properties in the critical areas in your motor then a good 30 wt. All mineral oils follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off brands have a .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear scar as well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will be slightly different, but not much. So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of the story. You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the additive package comes in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the reason synthetics are high priced. Because of the long run intervals of synthetic, they must have a vastly superior additive package - and they do. Proof of this is to take 3000 mile dino oil and look at it in a glass jar - then do the same for Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will look new compared to the dino oil. I run Mobil 1 in my new cars to the longest manufactures oil change interval - usually 7000 miles. This will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I change it once a year regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000 miles a year. Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have a bunch of cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going strong. I (my wife) never keeps one that long. I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). Older motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. Because synthetics don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I would be careful running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil pump. By doing so you may run into cavitation problems - oil gage jumping wildly. Drag racers experience this often at high RPM. Drop a wt and it will clear up. I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a zero wt Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing this oil, so apparently they have in some markets. I stand corrected. Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells like linseed oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all together. Another day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - zero - don't waste your money. Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you have been to the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read the lubrication journals you would run nothing other then synthetics. |
