| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
As I inch forward towards finally buying an EBR, I've come back again to this question. There are currently sixteen 2014/2015 EBR 1190SX's listed on Cycle Trader; there are fourteen 2016/2017 EBR 1190SX's listed. Prices are sort of scattered with some 2014's listed at higher prices than some new 2017 bikes. The closest 2016/2017 bike is ~700 miles from me, which will require a fly and ride or shipping fees. I don't really like the idea of doing a multi-day fly and ride on a new bike I have ~20 minutes of previous seat time on, so that's out. That leaves spending $500+ to have it shipped to me. OTOH, there's a new 2015 model listed at a used bike dealer outside of Atlanta, which is a little over 300 miles away. I could do a fly and ride or drive over and pick it up. It's listed at ~$500 cheaper than the cheapest listings for 2017's. A one-day trip to Atlanta would cost me about $50 in gas, so it's ~$50 for driving to get the 2015 vs. ~$500 for shipping to get the 2017. My question: is it worth an extra $500 to $1000 to get a new 2016/2017 bike from a dealer? I'm guessing there's a better chance this bike would be set up and checked over thoroughly, and buying it through a current dealer might get me a little better access to replacement parts. I don't see getting any use out of the warranty short of a catastrophic failure which would justify the cost of a ~1400 mile round trip to collect on it, so that's not a huge factor in the decision. The 2016/2017 bikes have the updated display (not likely present on the 2015), a 2-piece tail section to prevent cracking (not likely present on the 2015), and a reduced-pull clutch (maybe or maybe not present on the 2015). I do wonder about the build quality a little too. It'd be nice to have a 2017 model, but I have to wonder if the few guys at the factory didn't get word of how things were going before the end and maybe their QC standards weren't quite as good as they were at the height of the company's success in ~2015. Any thoughts? | ||
| Court |
One question . . . . one comment: 1) Where do you expect this "warranty support" to come from? I'm not certain folks have a clear understanding of what's transpired. Perhaps there is a successor entity I am unaware of that bought bought the parts and I.P. from the Melvins. It appears to me, and I confess I'm not nearly as fluent as some who've made the leap, that any talk of "warranty" is pretty much a dealer committing to do whatever they can. But parts and technical support would appear to be a crap shoot at best. 2) Your concerns with regard to the QC standards are unfounded. I have a pretty fair understanding of the process employed and it's without peer. No one at Buell, or EBR, "slacked off" when the end was in sight. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Court- Regarding question (1), for what it's worth, text at the top of EBR's website states:
LAP has not put all EBR parts in their liquidation sale, only parts deemed "excess" to warranty support. Again, for what it's worth, I've seen it stated that federal law DOES apply in this case, that the original manufacturer is obligated to provide replacement parts for at least the warranty period. While LAP has stopped production of EBR, I'm thinking the only way they can get out of that would be to declare bankruptcy or receivership again, and they haven't done that. It's been reported by at least a couple of reliable people that EBR recently ordered additional runs of bodywork and chain sliders in order to have sufficient supply to support warranties on the 2016 & 2017 bikes that have already been sold and that are yet to be sold. That would seem to back up the statement that they're required to provide support for these bikes. I'm with you that parts and technical support are somewhat of a crap shoot, I'm just thinking they'll be slightly less of a crap shoot on a warrantied bike that the manufacturer is obligated to support for at least one year. As far as a 2014/2015 bike, they can say "we didn't build that bike and we have no obligation to sell you any parts". (2) I appreciate that statement and I'll take your word that their QC wouldn't be affected. We know of some improvements to the 2016/2017 bikes and there may be others of which we're unaware, so I still lean towards getting the newest bike available. | ||
| Rsh |
Hope the warranty works out that way. Less than a year ago LAP also had a 5 year plan for EBR that was solid. | ||
| Court |
We'll see how that warranty thing plays out . . . it shouldn't be a big deal as the 12 month period will soon have run it's course. There are no "laws", as we collectively discovered, requiring any manufacturer to provide parts for discontinued models. However, I can see credence to the "you have to support it through the warranty period" and since L.A.P. assumed all the obligations when they assumed the assets, they may have some obligations there. Frankly, I think the best support for this very small number of bikes is going to be other enthusiastic owners. Not, by the way, unlike the early days of Buell . . the Don Chase era. There were problems with some of the 2014 and 2015 bikes but, as I understand it, they were engineering and design problems not build (or QC in the vernacular) problems. I agree that the newer, more evolved, model you can get the better off you are. | ||
| Dave |
Hugh, resort to a spreadsheet as well yet? :-) Go with color choice lol My offer stands with possible transportation from Milwaukee/Chicago to Action. Plus you could check out EBR, pay respects, etc. Maybe even ride WI and have 1st service at Action. Warranty, considering the track record, I'd not count on it unless you have one from another party external to LAP. I think '17s have some issues resolved but nothing that's a deal breaker over earlier years. If it were me, I'd make bargain offers on used ... the market will only decline as folks fear the worse. ie that SX in AL that went for like $5500. DAve | ||
| Ljm |
I figure you ought to buy what you want. If you are happier with a 17, get one. After the sale, you have to feel right about it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
For $500 extra over a 2015 (plus maybe another $500 to ship), a 2017 seems like a no-brainer. The only thing that attracts me to the "local" (300 miles away) 2015 is that I could go get it in one day and be riding it next week (and at BITA 7 in 2 weeks). If I get a 2017, I'll have to get it shipped which will likely be a multi-week process. Dammit, I want instant gratification!   | ||
| Buellerxt |
Good stuff, Hugh. You're just putting on paper what a lot of us go through when considering an EBR purchase, or other bikes for that matter.  I hope you get exactly what you want and it gives great service. The cool thing for you is that you are adept at working on bikes. | ||
| Qurtrn10 |
Don't let the short term benefit affect a long term decision. For just a little extra, get the '17. Since there are so many available online, get the dealers to bid against each other and get that shipping time down or get one to guarantee a faster shipping turn around. | ||
| Court |
I'll be interested to see how the playing hardball and trying to pit dealers against each other goes. If anyone finds that "gotta stand behind'em" law I'd like to read it. I've got a pretty good library of the laws and regulations that cover motorcycles and it's like the Holy Grail .... everybody knows about it .... no one's ever seen it. I'm still of a mind your best resource is enthusiastic similarly situated owners. It's good that some of the units have fallen into the hands of some tech savvy folks. | ||
| Stevel |
I think it's pretty clear now, there were no offers for EBR's IP. I am very curious how long it will take before LAP allows it to arrive in the public domain. I for one have no interest in Erik's designs. I want to know who made the parts he bought in or from whom were they purchased? | ||
| Damnut |
The 2015 models ALL have the 2 piece tail, lighter clutch pull and the updated dash. FWIW I believe that only a really limited number of bikes got a bad dash in 2015. My 2015 SX is #068 and I have the updated dash on mine. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The 2015 models ALL have the 2 piece tail Apparently not. Based on what people have posted at EBRforum.com, some colors (red for one) continued with the one piece tail at least part way through the model year. Here's the 2015 I've been eyeballing; you can see it has a one-piece tail:  | ||
| Hughlysses |
FWIW I believe that only a really limited number of bikes got a bad dash in 2015. Yes, that's my understanding too. I was actually talking about the software update that EBR was offering as a free update through your dealer on 2014/2015 bikes. This update apparently improved a few things on the display. The 2016/2017 bikes come with the update incorporated from the factory. | ||
| Phelan |
I put a deposit on a yellow 2017 SX at Action last week because there were only 10 yellow ones made and I didn't want to miss out on getting a brand new one with only rolling road miles on it. I'm getting a 17 for a multitude of reasons -yellow (1 of 10 SX in yellow) -almost zero miles (4-6 miles) -yellow -buying it from James, Kim's sone, at Action -in Wisconsin, close to Green Bay, so an excuse to ride over there and see Lambeau Field for the first time ever (I'm a lifelong Packer fan) -fly n ride experience (again) -yellow -updated dash, plastics, starter gasket, etc -nobody thrashing it off the rev limiter before me -it's Yellow. | ||
| Hughlysses |
One other apparent advantage of the newer bikes (according to FB posts) is better headers. There have been a significant number of catastrophic failures, especially of the front header, on the earlier bikes. It appears this is due to the welding being done without an inert gas purge inside the header, which causes "sugaring" of the inside surface of the welds. If true, that's be a big benefit for the newer bikes considering the cost and availability of replacement headers. | ||
| Court |
What is the cost and availability of replacement headers? Seems odd, after nearly 30 years of making headers, that something like this slipped through the cracks. Any sense of how credible the Facebook posts are? | ||
| Dave |
Significant? Like the starter O-Ring sealing? Idea of number Hugh? DAve | ||
| Hughlysses |
Court- Here's a link to a thread at EBRforum.com showing one catastrophically failed header: http://ebrforum.com/showthread.php?1370-Header-Carnage&highlight=weld As he said, it was the second one he had fail. I've seen photos from others claiming similar failures. It's enough of an issue that Alan Hawkes, a guy in the UK that builds aftermarket exhausts for Buells and EBRs, has started fabricating replacements:  DAve- I get the impression this is confined to early 2014 bikes and was corrected later, maybe before the 2015's were released, so hopefully not that large of a number. | ||
| Court |
This may be a case of opportunity evolving from adversity if someone is prompted to begin making replacements. I have some concerns, given the very small number of units that were built, about parts and supplies. The numbers would not seem to support a "business" venture and I remain most enthusiastic to see what emanates from the "passionate owner" community. | ||
| Damnut |
Alan builds some great pieces, not only for EBR but other makes too. Here is the header, he's working on the rear. http://www.aph-performance-engineering.com/pages/s hop/product.html?product_id=12823560& | ||
| Phelan |
It's worth noting, I suppose, that one of the reasons I decided to get an EBR at all is to expand upon the opportunity that you pointed out Court. I stick mostly to Facebook groups these days as it is ridiculously quick way to sell parts (about 75% of my listings are sold out in under 15 minutes), but I have been selling used, new, and custom designed parts on a large scale now for just over a year, and, with a partner, managed to snag about 50K worth of inventory from the EBR liquidation before deciding to get a bike for hands-on measurements, test bed, advertising, etc, as well as seeing some of the trouble spots first hand, albeit hopefully on a smaller scale than the earlier bikes. |
