| Author | Message | ||
     Cactus_dave |
I have been trying for the last few weeks to eliminate the last visible 1/16th inch of chicken strip off my 207's. Well.... today I went for a drive up Catalina hwy. to Mt. Lemmon to do just that. The traffic was very light, so at the bottom I stopped and waited for about 5 min. to give me as much free space ahead of me as possible. As soon as I saw a car coming, I took off ahead. The first few corners I took relatively easy (I like warm rubber)... and there is a fee station just up from the beginning. Any how after that I hammered it, Wooo Hoo! what a rush. About 3/4 of the way up I stopped to check the chicken strips....@#!! it if there was still a 32nd of an in. so....I got back on, and hammered it some more. Thinking to myself, Oooo lookit this nice right hander.... I set myself up, and hit it hard, Oh man what a surprise...the sound of metal and pavement coming together (I took about 1/8 in. of footpeg off). Thinking to myself once again..shurely there are no more strips. I stopped at the next pullout to check..... grumble grumble grumble...still there. What does a guy have to do to get nice dark rubber all the way to the edge? | ||
| Blublak |
Suggestions only.. really.. First - Remove the peg feelers. That's what you probably touched first. Second - Get a track day set up. You really don't want to take the bike over that far in traffic.. We're talking serious real knee down type riding. Wear 'short' pucks.. Remember, knee draggin' on the open road can lead to .. well.. unpleasant things.. | ||
| L0c0 |
Wow, so I have to scrap the footpeg to get to the edge? That's got to be a weird feeling...ride safe. | ||
| Tank_bueller |
No, no, not the whole peg, just the small round "feeler" that extends out/down from the end of the peg. It simply unscrews, although it likely has locktite on the threads which could make it more difficult to unscrew. At my first track day, one of the instructors politely recommended that I remove mine for fear of track damage.  Tank | ||
| Cactus_dave |
Testing Click here | ||
| Shea |
I agree that taking it to track would be better. There is too much debris and slick fluids on the road that can be dangerous. A track is def a more controlled environment. Honestly, I dunno why there is such a fascination to not have any chicken strip. I have gotten mine down really low and have scraped the feeler, but I don't know why any further than that on the road is such a big deal. | ||
| Debueller |
I take comfort in leaving at least a little chicken strip. That means that there is a little bit of "safety factor" built into my riding style. Now if I was riding on the track it might be a different story....... | ||
| Rr_eater |
See now, here is a quandry for you: I have an 04 12S, BT014s front and rear, 1300 miles on them, and I have a strangely diverse set of chicken strips. In the front, I have about 1/2" chicken strips, yet out back I have none, by a long shot!! I have blistered the rear tire on 2 different occasions, and yet have never touched down a peg, either factory S or the LSL/billet drop setup from American Sport Bike. I know several individuals who can SHRED a front tire (Ferris), yet leave the rear looking clean and smooth. I seam to be doing just the opposite though. I do ride HARD by definition, body off knee down, powering the bike around on my local roads, but I am sure I am not what one might call a racer type. Tire presurers currently are 36 front, 38 rear, and I have run many times a few pounds up and down from there. Any more pressure on the same roads, tires are too slippery, 35 or less in the rear, and the tire blisters. Is or can this be considered normal tire performance. Watching friends and other riders disappear behind me, then tell me I am riding like a wild man, tells me I may need to get to the track more then the street. But our governments idea of adequite pay for a servicemember (E6) does not allow me the liquidatable cash to do so more then once a year, and I can't buy tracktime with wellfare payments, so.... Any help figuring out this tire wear issue is greatly appreciated. Bruce | ||
| Rocketman |
Your chicken strips have everything to do with the profile of the tyre and the angle of lean. For example, a 185/55 rear tyre will have a steeper radius than a 190/60 so in theory you should have a thinner chicken strip showing on the 185. If you really ride like you say you do on the road, with your knee down often (I assume you have very long legs), then you are in practice holding the bike up whilst pushing yourself down towards the road surface. This too will keep the chicken strip fatter. Racers use the hanging off knee down style to get around the corner faster as the bike stays a little more upright, than if you were tucked in and lent over, which permits the tyre a larger contact patch area because it is more upright. In this scenario the racers knee is used often as a fulcrum and a gauge to keep the bike upright whilst they hang off. It's a rather strange balancing act at the end of the day. The knee down racing style is somewhat contradictory when trying to explain. In theory as its application suggests the racer is attempting to keep the bike as upright as possible to maximise grip whilst cornering, yet in practice the knee down style allows the bike to lean further over than would be normal if you were not to hang off with your knee down. That said, I'm no racer nor physicist / geometry expert, but there are those here who well could be, and they might offer their three pennies worth shortly! Holy Batman? Did I just mention contact patch on BadWeB????? Rocket | ||
| 12r |
If you have an XB, the wheelbase is so short that it requires less lean angle to make a given corner than a longer bike would. The lean angle is decreased further still if you're tall and have a tucked-in cornering style (higher C-of-G). | ||
| Sparky |
Perhaps to explain rr_eater's situation, watch half-mile dirt trackers in the corners. It looks like their rear wheels track in a wider arc than the front and the rear wheel lean angle is greater from vertical than the front. If this is true then, assuming wheel/tire sizes are equal, I would think the same thing applies to street bikes resulting in a wider rear tread wear pattern than the front just due to the nature of a bike's steering geometry. This would show up as more of a chicken strip on the front and lesser on the rear. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
I know several individuals who can SHRED a front tire (Ferris)... i'm finding this much harder to do on my Road King (this is probably a good thing). the damn floor boards are sure taking a beating, tho... FB | ||
| Rocketman |
Hi Ferris. Sparky, I'd absolutely agree with your observations. No doubt that's scientifically proven somewhere. The trouble is though, when comparing chicken strips, no one gives a hoot about front to rear. What they really want is to have less of a chicken strip than their mates on other bikes. That's the real world comparo dude lol. Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think the lower your speed when you are at full lean, the more you will erase that front tire strip. The only time I ever touched mine was doing very low speed drills in a parking lot. The back strip is pretty easy to completely erase though. I suspect it is because the amount of turn on the front forks on a low speed "really high lean" is much more then the amount of turn on a high speed "really high lean". I'm sure its something along those lines that is causing the different chicken strip width, but I would have to go spend an hour on Court's milk crate to really work out which is which and if it is high speed or low speed which makes the front strip wider or narrower relative to the rear. I think high speed high lean uses less of the front width. As for the lean, the reason to keep the bike upright as much as possible by "leaning way off" (which at its extreme is getting a knee down) is all about suspension (thanks to Kevin Cameron). My one low side so far was the result of hitting a maybe 4 inch deep invisible dip in the road while cranked over draggin pegs on my M2. The job of a suspension is to keep the tires touching the road. When the bike is upright, you have all 7 (?) inches of shock travel at your disposal. Bumps or dips? No problem, the suspension keeps the bike attached to the road so the tires can grip. But now crank the bike way over into a lean, and hit a bump. What can your suspension do? Precious little is the answer, its pointing sideways, and the bump is moving you up. You are for most intents and purposes riding a rigid, your only "suspension" is sidewall flex. So leaning way over to make the turn, but leaving the bike upright as possible, lets the suspension work as well as it can for a given turn speed. Ferris may not be able to shred a front on his Road King, but he can shred a floorboard, which can then shred a finger! That damn thing was sharp enough to peel grapes!! | ||
| Rocketman |
As for the lean, the reason to keep the bike upright as much as possible by "leaning way off" (which at its extreme is getting a knee down) is all about suspension (thanks to Kevin Cameron). Then Kevin Cameron is talking out of his hat! The knee down style was not adopted by racers because suspension necessitated it so. High corner speed is what brought it about. If it were suspension the opposite would be true. Older racers would have hung off and modern era racers wouldn't. It's about contact patch and keeping the bike on it, at the end of the day. The further over the tyre leans, the less contact patch area. Racers have perfected the knee down style so much that they now use their knee not only as a gauge to lean angle, but they're also using their knee to keep the bike from falling down in a low slide because their knee (puck or slider usually)is acting as a third contact patch. If Kevin Cameron thinks any different he needs to get on track with Troy Freakin Frankenfurter, who ever he is! One more thing. How many riders do you know or see that can get their knee down on the street? That's a myth unless they're riding a hairpin they know well or trying hard on roundabouts. I mean, who do these bullshitters think they are? Troy Freakin Frankenfurter. Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
So what does your contact patch look like the moment after you hit a 2" road deflection while the bike is leaned over far enough to "drag a knee"? | ||
| Rocketman |
Reep, like I said, how many riders have you seen get their knee down on the road? Knee down is pretty much exclusive to the track, and there are no 2" road deflections, or shouldn't be, on any race track. Here's something you might be familiar with. There are instances where racers with their knee down have caught and picked the bike back up when the front end has broke traction. These types of save have only been possible because the racers knee was already down making three points of contact with the ground. When the front slides there is a chance that traction can be regained because the knee down has allowed a brief moment of support whilst the front regains grip. The knee down style is without doubt used as a support Once that front end slides one could reasonably assume suspension had little to do with regaining control of a front wheel slide in this type of scenario. When the rear breaks traction at somewhere near full lean then regains grip, I just don't see how suspension played a part in such action. So that leads me back to what Kevin Cameron claims. Does his theory mean that one should not lean the bike over so far that its suspension has a limited amount of function, and the gauge of so far is ones knee down? That's a croc...... The only valid point his theory makes is that the suspension obviously works more efficiently the more upright the bike is, but that's hardly the point of getting ones knee down. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Hanging off certainly benefits suspension performance in that it allows the bike to be more upright where the suspension is effective. Of course hanging off also benefits ground clearance too. Hey Bill. Good to see you back on the BadWeB. We missed you.  Is the basement finished? | ||
| Rasmonis |
Cactus_Dave, I wore mine off just fine without grinding the foot peg. I'm not that advanced when it comes to cornering either. How's your counter-steering on those curves? Keep at it, they'll wear soon enough. Frustrating isn't it? It's just an ugly a$$ green stripe - be careful. -Ras | ||
| Rocketman |
Hanging off certainly benefits suspension performance in that it allows the bike to be more upright where the suspension is effective. Of course hanging off also benefits ground clearance too. No doubt, but that isn't to say knee down is all about suspension, as Kevin Cameron allegedly claims. Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
Blake, it's great to be back, I missed you and all the people here. Rocket, your right, my bad. I should not have implied it is all about suspension. I was projecting my riding style... One of my two low sides was the direct result of the intersection of two things. 1) Doing that "Ride the Pace" stuff of not leaning off the bike (which is great fun). 2) An invisible (and I really mean virtually invisible) sag in asphalt that was about 8 inches long and maybe 4 inches deep. I was going maybe 15 mph leaned in scraping pegs on my Cyclone (keep this in perspective, if you are not leaning off the bike at all, scraping pegs on a Cyclone is not that crazy). My line took me right over this smooth "dip" , and my first indication that there is a problem is me sliding behind the bike along the ground. No kidding, my first concious thought was "No fair! I was not going nearly fast enough for that to happen this time!". The Cyclone took the slide like a champ. Bars bent a little, clutch handle got another radius, Banke shifter had to be bent back out, Napolean mirrors (somehow) were fine. So I walk back to see exactly what happened... and in the mottled sunlight under the shade of the tree, if I looked really carefully standing there, I saw the "divot". I really had to study to find it. Looking closely at it, I could clearly see exiting out of the divot the point where the front tire came back in contact with the road surface (already starting to slide) but held. Then further outside the curve the second thicker line where the rear came back in contact, fought the good fight, but washed out. The skid marks were clear as day. I woulda gotten a picture, but I had no camera and was bleeding all over my work pants  (side note.. its staggering how much pain over the course of two months a 2" circle of road rash can cause... especially if you are 6'2" and folding up into an airplane) I am convinced to this day that if I been leaning out inside the turn (which would have meant the Cyclone would have been leaning maybe half as much and no where near peg scraping leans) that the suspension would have had suficient travel to keep the tire in contact with the ground throughout the smooth divot, and that I would not have wrecked. I can scrape the pegs on my 9sx if I work really hard at it, but I don't. I lean out and inside the turn, and always keep the bike as upright as possible to let the suspension be as useful as it can. You can even see it on this picture from our recent BratPac II adventure... this is on deal gap, and its hard to tell but the road is VERY wet. Even though I am nowhere near the limits of the 9sx lean, I have probably 80% of my (substantial) body weight inside the centerline of the axis of the motorcycle.  So my bad. I don't know why racers put a knee down, but I know *exactly* why I always lean off corners at least a little, even when the corner speed does not come close to demanding it. Damn Hidden Road Divots! | ||
| Henrik |
Hi Bill - cool picture ... you've got a headlight out  Henrik | ||
| Rocketman |
Bill, please (in the nicest way) don't make me out to know more than you. We are ocean's apart besides anything else. My problem lies with these so called experts who claim to tell us the best way to ride a motorcycle, or how the physics of a motorcycle work when they clearly have no proof and are talking bullshit, relying solely upon their so called well earned reputation based upon their own experiences. By the way, that's a very strange line you've took through that corner. I'm an expert (based on experience) at crossing the 'double yeller' and that's one big corner screaming out for a good ole knee down, lol. Rocket | ||
| Steve899 |
 I don't touch a knee much ,I keep my knee againest the fairing , when I touch a knee, it is still againest the fairing, but it works for me | ||
| Reepicheep |
Cool shot Steve! Hey, missed replies to this thread the first time... My line is a weird one, but a deliberately weird one. First of all, its hard to tell from the picture, but it is soaking wet and still lightly raining... notice the shine on the tire. Thats why I'm not leaning much at all, I am just not going very fast in the first place. As for the line, I like to turn, and I like to maximize every turn. Were I racing and wanting to carry the greatest corner speed, I would take the straightest line through every corner. But I want to maximize turning, not corner speed. So I start entered that turn above close to the double yellow, dove deep to the outside apex, and will finish the turn coming back towards the double yellow. That line also gives me the best visibility through the corner, letting me see further through it sooner, and puts me in a good position for somebody coming the other direction running wide. Had I been going the other direction on that same turn, you would have seen me a lot closer to the double yellow, maximizing my visibility through the turn. So it's just me trying to maximize visibility through every turn, and get as much turn out of any section of road as it will allow. I would slalom back and forth down my lane just going down the interstate if I didn't think it would get me arrested! | ||
| Ceejay |
Reep-slalom is a fun little exercise using the yellow stripes as flags, it gets more fun the bigger you get, but I think it could end in a nasty high side... I agree that straightening the corners isn't nearly as fun as riding full corner. But I've never thought about it for the safety aspect(visibility). Good call. | ||
| Steve899 |
Why would you lean off the bike to turn? | ||
| Steve899 |
This thread is about Chicken Strips, if you don't have some chicken strips while riding on public streets then you are going far to fast! Want to go fast, take it to the track, I will admit I have tried to go race track speeds on the streets, but my tires always have chicken strips, I always hold back even though I don't want to. It is probably because almost every right hand turn I take there is a car coming the other way right at the pt the front end could tuck. On the race track no problem with a right hand turn ft tuck, righthand ft tuck on the street could put me right under an oncoming car Can you say Organ Donor? | ||
| Reepicheep |
For a given turn at a given speed, the more you lean your body, the less you have to lean your bike. The more you lean your bike, the less effective your suspension is in keeping the rubber on the road if you hit any kind of bump. So you can lean your body more and lean the bike less, and make it through any given corner with a larger safety margin. Another factor (that may just be me) is that if I am already leaning my body and have to tighten up a turn quickly, I don't have to move my center of mass much and can change my line faster. If I am not leaning, the time it takes me to adjust my center of mass significantly slows my adjustment time. I learned this skiing long before I touched a motorcycle. Get your center of gravity where it needs to be *before* you need it to be there. I think the presence or absence of chicken strips has as much to do with form as it does with speed. With bad form (keep my body straight up but lean the bike) I can eliminate chicken strips easily and never break 15 mph. With good form, I could go twice as fast as rational on any public street and still have a lot of untouched rubber. | ||
| Steve899 |
 I know this topic is a touchy, but in the above picture #99 Geoff May in 2nd place and #34 Micheal Barnes in third place hang off the bike completely different. 1st Fact: they are teammates 2nd Fact: they ride the same bikes 3rd Fact: they are in the same turn(and race line) at the same speed 4th Fact: I have met Geoff May(#99) and watched him ride at Jennings GP , and he hangs off alot 5th Fact: ( and more hearsay) I know people who have seen Micheal Barns(#34) ride and they say he does not hang off much at all. Now for the fun part: The picture shows me that with different hang off amounts the lean angle is the same, I know there are some who will say they are taking different lines, one guy is slowing down the other is speeding up. I can tell you when you are racing that close at that speed your bike is doing everything the same as the guy right in front of you. AS Rossi would say " you have the Rhythm" So the question is: What turns the bike through a Given Radius at a Given Speed? I believe the lean angle is the only thing that turns the bike When you Hang off you do it before you get to the turn, so when you countersteer the bike it falls over on that side more easily and makes it fall quicker. These are my observation in 3 yrs of roadracing and 7 yrs of riding on the track Judge for yourself, what is the truth? |
