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Koz5150
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 06:38 am: | 
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Honestly though. Copying other people's art/books/or name is not cool. Being someone who does artwork, I have paid for all the artwork I apply and charge customers extra if they want something original. I try not to think about people copying, but I know it happens. On the other hand, I would love to create something that people would want to copy.
I did a Buell/Own the Corners graphic on my Jeep, but that was for me. The only other Buell graphics I ever did were the Back window of Daves truck (cost of materials) and the graphic for Brew City Brag which I did for free.
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Phillyblast
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:03 am: |
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Sean,
I just ordered a copy of the S2 service manual from the local dealer - yeah, they even checked in back to see if they had one in stock 
Cost was less than 60 bucks. Seems about fair, considering the amount of work that went into it, the economics of small-batch printing, storage, and shipping, maybe even close to "cost". Once I buy it, fair use kicks in, I can make copies of pages for personal use, loan it out to whomever I want, etc. Hell, if my local lending library has a copy I can check it out and take it home. Remember libraries? Mine has an entire section of Chilton's manuals that saved my butt as a teenager with a broken car. Even under traditional copyright, you retain substantial rights under fair use. What I can't do is sell copies on ebay for a profit.
Interestingly, though, copyright law does allow for "sharing" if the creator permits - check out the copyleft license or creative commons copyrights.
btw trademark is use it or lose it, copyright is not.
Dave, wash your truck  |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:35 am: |
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I know this is a bit of a tangent, but to all of you who have ever uttered "what goes around comes around", I have had one of the most wonderful moments of vindication in the last few days.
Several years ago, I was fired as a direct ("so you're saying you won't do it?"..."No, I will not" result of refusing to do something illegal.
The fellow promised to make my life in the industry miserable and for a year I was out of work, getting met with closed doors. I tried, knowing no one likes a whiner, to avoid the "yeah, but....so and so did to me" lines and even if I hinted that this guy wasn't the most upstanding folks didn't want to listen.
There was a bit of glee seeing him walked away in handcuffs last week. The "International Business Electrical Contractor American Success Story" who has 23 prior felony convictions, served a quietly hushed up prison term for grand larceny and is driving the streets of Long Island after walking "money walks" 6 DUI's has finally met his match...a local DA.
Stealing is not right.
Court |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 09:04 am: |
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Another question, while i believe the manuals on CD are illegal, what about the magnets with Buell motorcycles on them, is using an image of a bike to create other items illegal
IE, if i took a picture of my bike and made whatever out of it, would that be considered illegal(i was looking at the fridge magnets posted on ebay as well as the wall clocks and a few other items)
thanks
R |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 09:11 am: |
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Music CD Prices have dropped? WOW! Yet another reason to relocated to that sceptered isle, cuz the prices have remained remarkably consistant here in the states!
as for the artists not suffering while the record companies do, just exactly who PAYS the artist in the UK -- the record store? works a little differently here in the states, I guess ;-}
as for being ripped off, you're only ripped off, in my book, if you're given no choice in the matter -- if you WANT ot buy a CD, ya pays yer money -- again, it may be otherwise in the UK, where agents of Virgin Reocrds roam the streets, forcing innocent Grandmas to buy Eminem CDs against their will -- now THAT would be a ripoff
Blake is excersizing hyp[erbole again when equating theft with communism -- cuz it ain't the gubmint doing the theiving, in this case -- it's the people -- reminds me of Abby Hoffman's book (imagine that going on sale these days at Barnes & Noble?) |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 09:45 am: |
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I've unfortunately had the need to learn a lot about copyright law recently, as I'm being forced to defend my works. Someone took a whole bunch of pictures I took and text I wrote and used them in their product literature and on their web site.
What I learned, beyond obscure things like the definition joint and collective works, is that each violation of federal copyright law carries punitive damages of $100K. That's for each item. Not chump change at all, and when you're talking about dozens of violations, it easily justifies the expense of a law suit.
Misrepresenting someone else's product as your own is also a violation of consumer protection laws and the offending party is liable for 3 times the actual losses. |
Hobanbrothers
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:57 am: |
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Hey Ken,
Would you be interested in doing our race bikes for next year?? We plan on the Daytona 200 along with RA and very possible some other very interesting stuff??
Sorry to get off topic...
Continue on... |
Firebolt020283
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
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sorry to get furether off topic but good luck at daytona hoban |
Lake_bueller
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 02:01 pm: |
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A question....if Buell had the S1 manual available on-line (for free), is it illegal to copy? Would it not become "public domain property" at the point if is published on-line for free? |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 02:47 pm: |
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It would.
What you *CAN'T* do is reproduce it and sell it on e-Bay.
Court |
1320
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 03:01 pm: |
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People and Companies have the right to protect their property and rights to that property...those same people and companies are also the ones that ultimately make the decision on whether to pursue by litigation their right of protection. I still remember vividly the lawsuits brought by The Motor Company against alot of folks and business owners who used the word "Hog" and such in their company name...they also sued folks that used their Bar & Shield Logo even though there was different words in the blank spaces..I think the end of alot of the publics knowledge as to these lawsuits came when The Motor Company started litigation against the Japanese manufacturers who jumped on board the V-Twin craze with their knock offs and the Potatoe, Potatoe SOUND! That's right..part of the litigation was in reference to OTHERS stealing the distinct SOUND of their motorcycles...After a numder of years the lawsuit was dropped...Anyway...not to be starting stuff here..BUT...If the powers that be at Buell wanted to..could they make life difficult for all involved with this website because of the clear resemblence to THEIR LOGO on the homepage albeit with different words in the spaces?? They probably could...Here is a good example of the far out happening..A friend of mine that lives in Tennessee had really pissed off someone in another county a couple hundred miles away..well, low and behold a few months later he received a summons that informed him that he was being sued and the complaint was that the fellow he pissed off claimed he was bitten by my friends dog..Soooo my friend had to get his lawyer($) and get some neighbors as witnesses to take time off their work($) and all of them travel to that county just to defend himself on the simple grounds that he had never owned a dog in his life. Yes, the case was simply dismissed..but look at the hassle and money that was wasted just because the fella he pissed off could afford to make trouble...Lawsuits are in the eyes of the beholders... |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:55 pm: |
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Hey Ken,
Would you be interested in doing our race bikes for next year?? We plan on the Daytona 200 along with RA and very possible some other very interesting stuff??
Sorry to get off topic...
Continue on...
Hmmm Race bikes...
I have never done a race bike before, but it sounds like my kind of project. I am leaving for florida in 36 hours but will be back in town Tuesday. We should talk next week! I have all my vinyl equipment set up to be completely portable so I could even set up a time and do it right at your shop. Let me know what you are looking for. You can contact me at koszewa@voyager.net |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:32 am: |
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You guys kill me. Grand Theft Auto, rumours of communist uprisings, the right to bear arms against computer hackers. Whatever next. Theft is a pretty powerful word and can take things way out of context. We're talking about someone selling a few copies of a Buell CD manual on Ebay, who's probably made no more than a couple of hundred bucks over a year or three. Big deal. Get a life dudes. That my friends is entrepreneurial skills - NOT theft. Think emancipation.
My friends have run a Ford specialist business in the UK for over 20 years. They started out just as soon as they left school. Bought a few scrap Fords, broke them into small parts and set about selling those same parts, and getting the work in fitting them where possible. They're very successful, and wealthy too these days it might as well be said.
About 8 or 10 years ago and long since established as they were, lawyers acting on behalf of FoMoCo got in touch, threatening to sue if they didn't drop the Ford part of their business name and stop using Ford type logo's in their shop frontage. This action went around the UK like wild fire. You can imagine there's quite a few Ford independent specialists in the UK, and they all knocked their heads together, employed one fat cat London law firm to look into their position, and they all backed away. My friends were lucky with their name. Autoford became Autoafford, and Ford couldn't touch 'em.
The other side of town resides a Saab independent specialist who trades by the name Mister Pepper's Saab Workshop, or Saab Workshop for short. There aren't as many Saab independents in the UK as there are Ford independents I grant you, but there's still a fair few never the less. What is the Swedish companies take on such matters regarding the flagrant use \ abuse of their name one might ask? Well, those smart Swede's took the initiative and set up a Saab Parts Direct scheme specially for us independent types. Special discounts. Access to Saab's mainframe computers via their dealer network. Opportunity to purchase specialist tools and workshop manuals, including ISAT and Tech 2 scanners, something one couldn't even dream of doing a few years ago. What's in it for Saab? It widens the Saab community. Makes the family larger, in turn securing Saab's long standing reputation as a manufacturer of vehicles that stand the test of time. It gives Saab the opportunity to sell off slower moving parts for older model Saab's that the third or fourth or fifth or more Saab owner would otherwise not consider risking Saab dealer prices for, nor their dealer prices to fit said parts. So it goes that the older model Saab's are kept on the road by us independents, which in turn benefits Saab's longevity reputation I mentioned, which in turn keeps both ends of the food chain happy, and it still turns Saab a tidy profit too from their old stock, amongst other things, and Saab are in full support of us independents, working with us - not against us.
Can you buy bootleg Saab manuals on Ebay? Every damn model you can think of. Simply, owning a manual puts whatever company at very little loss. Not everyone can read the bloody manual to start with anyway, never mind fix the damn machine. Even if they can or could, would they want to even get their hands dirty? Few would. The best part is, most everyone is clever enough to recognise this, which is why the guy or gal selling bootleg manuals on Ebay is never gonna get rich, which probably explains the good sense of Buell and other companies who waste no time, money or effort pursuing such trivia, unlike the BadWeB do good sucker hobby lawyers and pretend legal eagles who can't help but rain on some bugger else's parade. Theft my arse! Live and let live. Buell are way big enough to look out for themselves without you the guy in the street sticking in your three-peneth worth thank you very much.
Music CD's are around £9 in the U.K for current releases. Slightly older to very old can be as cheap as £6, or even the cost of a bag of chips - sometimes. Once upon a time you didn't get much for under £15. Me, I have a friend who burns big time. Any album, record, whatever, costs me zilch. Likewise, nor do his Saab parts. Is the quality there? Not in my opinion, but it costs little effort to get a fresh copy ripped. Do artists approve of this use of their material? Some do that's for sure. Oasis put their latest album out on the net for all to copy, but then again, they are a ground breaking band just like their music, which probably explains why it's so un-American.
If copying electronically is a crime, shouldn't Microsoft or similar be prosecuted for supplying the paraphernalia to copy with?
Some things are meant to be 'stolen', just like Clockwork Orange.
Rocket |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 01:02 am: |
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Oasis put their latest album out on the net for all to copy, but then again, they are a ground breaking band just like their music, which probably explains why it's so un-American.
"ground breaking"??? They sing, play guitar, and think they are the second coming of the Beatles (which they are not...) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 02:27 am: |
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How could you possibly understand Oasis? You're a musically dumb American fer chrisakes.
Rocket |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 02:38 am: |
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A musically dumb American who has 10 years experience as a lead singer in a rock band, 15 years playing guitar, 7 years classical vocal training, 7 years trombone, and I performed in 2 different Drum and Bugle corps while serving active duty. Want some music? Try Dream Theater or Queensryche or Trans Siberian Orchesta. The guys from Oasis can't even sing. They sound like little nasaly whinning girlie men. Please don't insult me, I fart in your general direction you silly English Knight (pronounced ca-nig-et)! |
Ethanr
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 03:16 am: |
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> If copying electronically is a crime, shouldn't Microsoft or similar be prosecuted for supplying the paraphernalia to copy with?
No. Tools available for digital theft have legitimate uses (e.g., making personal backup copies of material you own). Would you sue a car maker because they made the vehicle used in a bank robbery? |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 04:08 am: |
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>>>Think emancipation.
Larceny does not manumit the light of brain.
Court |
Mark_in_ireland
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 05:51 am: |
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Quote....A musically dumb American who has 10 years experience as a lead singer in a rock band...
please post us some links so the general public can compare the hard rock american lead singer against the little nasaly whinning girlie men.... |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 06:08 am: |
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Well back when I was active in a band I had a few demo tracks available online. Now I am just a fan with past experience. Sorry no current links. Maybe some day I could post a few pics, but not today. 26 hours and I am leaving on a jet plane.... I don't know when I'll be back again. But for some real bands try www.dreamtheater.net or www.queensryche.com or www.rush.com (even though they are Canadian, thay are pretty good) or www.trans-siberian.com |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 06:14 am: |
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P.S. It's music... lighten up a bit.... |
Phillyblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 08:01 am: |
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Sean,
You're story of Ford vs. Saab to my non-lawyer brain confirms the "use-it-or-lose-it" bit of trademarks. If you don't enforce even the smallest infraction, you stand to risk losing your ability to enforce it for "really big stuff" too.
Ford chose to sue the small guy. Saab in essence "made you official" and part of the Saab network, implicitly granting you the right to use the Saab name and logo as you are an "authorized" Saab repair facility.
Both Ford and Saab made the "right" decision regarding protecting their marks, but Saab it seems made the right decision all around, and came up with a creative "win-win" that enhanced their biz and led to increased sales of both parts and cars. Pretty smart move.
Oasis!!! You always struck me as more of a Billy Bragg kinda guy |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 09:48 am: |
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Rocket, you didn't seem to feel that way when RocketSprink showed up, and people were shortening his name in replies as "Rocket"...
(BTW, I agreed with you) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:22 am: |
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Yer right, brer Sean -- some bands DO post their cuts so fans can copy them, no doubt
and some discount outlets DO cut prices, specially on older releases (but not all, by any matter of means)
some things are meant to be stolen? would that include the services of an independant Saab specialist, porchance? |
1320
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:31 am: |
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Phillyblast...you are right..as I think the SMART folks at Buell are very happy that this site exists..Makes a win/win situation for them and for us all.... |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 04:48 pm: |
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Koz, enjoy your flight, but something to ponder over whilst you do. How come a musically dumb American who has 10 years experience as a lead singer in a rock band, 15 years playing guitar, 7 years classical vocal training, 7 years trombone, and who's performed in 2 different Drum and Bugle corps while serving active duty hasn't sold as many records as a couple of little nasaly whinning girlie men from a run-down council house estate in Manchester? Who'da thunk it eh? Brings tears to me eyes.
By the way, as much as I like some Oasis stuff I'm not a fan. Very few bands stay in my top few forever. Slade, The Animals, Crowded House, Led Zep amongst them. Then I can get down deep and dirty with anyone from Nancy Sinatra to Carol King to Nat King, and to Herb Alpert to Mozart to John Cage. Truth is, has anyone ever written a crap song? I don't think so. Music is life itself, no doubt including yours Koz.
Ah the Ford v Saab stuff. The Ford take didn't sit well with anyone over here. It was seen as a poke in the eye by most. Some of these guys had used Ford branding since forever, then they came along with specific rules even stating anyone with the surname Ford would be prosecuted if they were found to have changed their name to suit their Ford independent business. What's all that about? Still, it were many years ago now. As for Saab, I guess selling only 100,000 new cars a year helped us independents.
As for my name, I get the impression a thousand excuses is gonna render me a loser on this one. Dare I suggest I earned my name <grin> a long time ago! Nope, didn't think that would wash either.
Rocket |
Stealthxb
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 05:20 pm: |
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Record sales is hardly a measure of how "ground breaking" a band is.
And you can thank us "musically dumb Americans" for blues, rock and roll, jazz and hip hop. |
Chainsaw
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 07:23 pm: |
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Hey, ya'll lighten up on Rocket! The English brought us the Spice Girls...and that Ginger Spice...HUBBA HUBBA!
Back to topic...
I would love to have a native PDF format of the XB service manual on CD. I could put it on my PDA right next to the XB parts manual for reference on road trips should a problem arise. I saw those CD manuals on ebay, one thing that kept me from buying was they had a picture of a 2004 XB12R on a CD advertised as a 2003 XB9R manual...says to me they're not enthusiasts, just out to make a buck.
I would like to see an official BMC version packaged with the hardcopy manual (which I already own). |
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