| Author | Message | ||
     Mr_grumpy |
Newfie, more popcorn over here.  | ||
| Rocketman |
I don't see it that way Rocket. Most professionals don't see it that way either. The lists of credentials for Kiethe Code and Lee parks were posted earlier in the thread so there's no reason to re-hash them. Dude, there's every reason in my book if you don't understand them, or see them as wrong. No one here turns a motorcycle into a corner by turning the wrong way first, no matter how small that input. If you feel yourself counter steering initially, you're already no longer upright and your front wheel is facing into the corner and any counter steer is just tweaking the bars between more or less turn in. Show me proof otherwise. Rocket | ||
| Newfie_buell |
No Popcorn but I got a belly full of screech. This is too much fun!!!!! I'd say we all get pocketbikes and meet on a very large parking lot and let the games begin. I'd kick all yer arses. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I'm in. | ||
| Biknut |
rocketman, this is endless on the net. are they all wrong and only you right? Riding Skills Series: Countermeasures By Jason Black Photography: Dean Groover 1. Whether you realize it or not, countersteering is as necessary and vital to your riding as using the brakes. If you're not familiar with countersteering, it's a term used to describe the physical action of steering the bar or clip-ons momentarily in the opposite (yes, opposite) direction of the turn in order to initiate a corner. The actual physics of countersteering are complicated, and while many people think it requires only a simple explanation, panels of physicists have debated exactly why angular momentum, torques and vectors affect your motorcycle. As riders, we don't need to know the physics, but it is important to have an understanding of how our motorcycle works. We're not going to tell you why, but here is a quick how. | ||
| Biknut |
i can't find one webb sight saying there is no such thing as motorcycle counter steering but there are thousands saying it is real and that everyone that rides does it. do a google search. | ||
| M1combat |
I'll see about borrowing a camera... I'll go to a nice clean piece of pavement and do a sharp turn at 40-60... You will see the front tread actually arc OUTSIDE and then start curving inside. The rear will do this as well, but to a MUCH lesser extent. I will try to borrow a camera. I only know a few people who have one of the digital variety, but I'll ask around... You will see something like this \ _\ __\ \__| |__| |__| |_/ // | | Try to imagine it w/o the underlines... The web server needed them as place holders. The bike is traveling upwards, the line on the right is the front tire. | ||
| Biknut |
right on. | ||
| Aesquire |
The act of turning the bars the "wrong way" or counter to the intended turn, to initiate lean, is countersteering. Also, the turning of the bars even more into the turn, to stand the bike back toward vertical, is countersteering. My massive oversimplification is that you steer the contact patch out from under the center of gravity (or vector corrected for lean angle ) to roll the bike. The actual turning of the bike does not happen 'till you aim the front wheel in the direction of the turn. ? ? I think. So Rocket's description is perfect for the turn itself. | ||
| Ingemar |
Rocket, Can you answer these two simple questions without too many words please? If you ride on straight road and have a left hand turn coming on. You're speed is right for that turn. What is the FIRST thing you do to initiate the turn? If the answer is NOT steering right, HOW do you get the bike to lean into the turn??? | ||
| Hans |
Well Rocketman, what you propose is what I did over 40 years the wrong way to get a desired leaning angle: First turning into the turn, to bring a heavy bike, with a low COG, somewhat out of balance the wrong way, to have a "jumping place" to lean the bike much more to the right side. A remark from Blake on this forum made me try to skip the first part. Since then I can reach any desired leaning angle at once, with only one single (counter-) steering mouvement. I had to give up the feeling to be "one with the bike" at any moment. Maybe the old way will still do, when there is absolute no room at the outer side of a turn.  Hans. | ||
| Rocketman |
1. Whether you realize it or not, countersteering is as necessary and vital to your riding as using the brakes. If you're not familiar with countersteering, it's a term used to describe the physical action of steering the bar or clip-ons momentarily in the opposite (yes, opposite) direction of the turn in order to initiate a corner. Did he say steering the front wheel OPPOSITE the direction of the turn? When you're in that turn the front wheel is already facing INTO the turn, therefore it is turning the same way as the turn. Describing the act of counter steering in the manner Mr Black is, he is simply describing the act of putting OPPOSING pressure on the bars, thus pressure OPPOSITE to the direction of the turn. Mr Black, nor anyone else, is actually saying the front wheel is pointing in the OPPOSITE direction to the turn. That's because it is NOT. It is simply being manipulated either side of a neutral force whilst the front wheel tracks around a corner in the direction of a corner. That manipulation is counter steer. At no point did the front wheel turn opposite to the direction of the turn, just its track, though your input to the bars might have confused you into thinking it had. That is YOUR misjudgment, and probably others too who think I'm nuts. M1, no need for the camera. Perhaps answering Ingemar's questions will help you too. If you ride on straight road and have a left hand turn coming on. You're speed is right for that turn. What is the FIRST thing you do to initiate the turn? You already answered the question. Set-up the bike for the turn is the first thing you do. If the answer is NOT steering right, HOW do you get the bike to lean into the turn??? See what's happening here? You talk of cornering as if it's black and white, like you ride down a road sitting perfectly upright until a turn comes along, at which time you steer the bars to get around it in your preferred manner. The reality is, it doesn't happen anything like that. When a motorcycle is driven into a turn we turn the front wheel in the direction of that turn. Before we arrived at any turn we've already done several things to get the bike ready for the turn. Get our braking done. Select the appropriate gear. Blend speed. Get the desired line sorted. Hang off. When these factors are done and we arrive at the corner we've already initiated the cornering manoeuvre. Once at the corner it is a simple act of turning the bars the direction of the corner to index the front wheel in that direction utilizing the actions we've already initiated. When a motorcycle turns, so it goes that the un steered rear wheel has to follow the corner too. As the front wheel turns in toward the direction of the corner and the forks \ bars pivot around the bikes steering head, the rear wheel positioned a few feet behind the steering head cannot follow the same track as the front wheel. What happens is the rear wheel tracks a slightly wider arc into the apex of the corner , thus it is not facing the same direction as the front wheel. As the rear wheel continues its wider track into the corner the front wheel steers toward the apex of the corner. As the rear wheel continues its own track into the corner it reaches its farthest point outside of the front wheels track until it is forced to track inward toward the apex of the corner. Once this point is reached the front wheel is now crossing the corners apex. Once done so, apexing the corner, the front wheel now needs to be eased off as the corners radius opens up. Easing up on the steering angle, it is still turning in the direction of the corner, all be it to a lesser degree, but the rear wheel is now apexing the corner. You might now notice the front wheel looks like it is been steered outside to the corner. It is not. The rider never turned outside the corner at all. He simply eased up on the steered angle, the inward direction of the front wheel still following the corners direction. Rocket | ||
| Outrider |
Rocket...good point about King Kenny. However, I was addressing motocross type offroad riding techniques which involve radical weight shifts that employ a point and shoot style...not flat track techniques which do support countersteering. My comments concerning employing offroad riding skills had to do with saving your butt in bad sphincter sucking surface conditions when countersteering won't. Rather than complicating things with a long explanation, I simply described some situations and recommended those interested either sign up for a school or get a book, a dirt bike and practice. In virtually all road riding situations countersteering is the correct way to initiate a turn even when backing in and I doubt if you will find any road or track riding book or school that will teach otherwise. The major premise is that a motorcycle must lean in order to turn and the quickest, most controllable way to get a motorcycle to lean is to countersteer. No way to argue that. It has been proven by folks much greater than any of us. | ||
| Ingemar |
Rocket, Please, A, B, or C. Rocket gets his bike to lean by: A. steer left for a right hand turn B. Shifts his weight and wrestle with his bike because he refuses to counter steer C. none of the above  | ||
| Biknut |
it is possible to ride as rocketman says, but in order to do so your bike has to have training wheels. | ||
| Ingemar |
Or a sidecar  | ||
| M1combat |
You're confused Rocket... The rear wheel track will be INSIDE the front wheel track (unless you are on a dirt bike and sliding, or if you're sliding on pavement, but that's not what we are talking about). We are, however, talking about how to initiate a turn. You are correct that you do quite a few things before initial turn in, but AT INITIAL TURN IN you need to do what? Lean the bike? I thought so. So how do you lean the bike? You lean the bike by pulling the tires out from under it, or by pushing the top over one side of the tires. It's been stated and proven time and again that the second method is not precise or quick... This means that if you go fast you will use the first method. You will pull the tires out from under the bike. How do you do this? You refuse to answer this question BECAUSE YOU TURN TO THE OUTSIDE. You have realized this and still refuse to admit it. <--- Notice the period. I've even gone out and practiced "proper form" by hanging off before initiating the turn... I still turn to the outside... I'm not confusing myself. The front tire track turns to the OUTSIDE of the turn when I am going for the initial lean angle. I've tried just turning until the steering head is straight (as far as I can tell anyway) and the bike does indeed roll into the corner (obviously, I'm hanging 200lbs off the side of it...), but it does it slowly... It's probably fine for the every day street rider trying to go fast of a goldwing... but if you want to snap a bike into a corner, you will need to turn outside. Are you familiar with the dynamics of a tank slapper? What makes the bike flop side to side? The steering head direction. When the steering head is pointed to the left, the bike adds lean angle to the right... As it flops over to the right, the self correcting geometry steers the bikes steering head to the right... WHAT HAPPENS NOW? It begins to lean left... Hmmmm.... What's happening here? We are seeing that when the bars are turned to the left, lean angle increases to the right... When the bars are turned to the right, lean angle increases to the left... | ||
| Paulinoz |
Go out side grab a Bicycle by the seat and while pushing it forward pull the bike over into a turn by the seat. Watching the bars and front wheel as you do so then discribe what happens. | ||
| M1combat |
That's different... That's akin to hanging off the side and letting that do all the work to lean the bike. You "can" do that, but it will not be as quick or precise. | ||
| Outrider |
C. None of the above. Willing to wager Rocket is sitting back quaffing a few pints and doing the LMAO thing reading all the opposing viewpoints. Most likely is The Brit's Dry Wit way of making sure everyone knows the value of countersteering.  | ||
| Vegasbueller |
I am thinking the dead horse will beat into powder really soon!  | ||
| Bomber |
well, I spose this is less-counter productive than the Politics thread -- ;-} sure glad I'm not following this thread with the aim of learning how to ride, though I must admit that Physics as a democartically elected body of rules is an interesting concept | ||
| M1combat |
"I must admit that Physics as a democartically elected body of rules is an interesting concept" LMAO . That's a good one for a sig on my e-mails . | ||
| M1combat |
"Most likely is The Brit's Dry Wit way of making sure everyone knows the value of countersteering." Where'd you go Rocket... I didn't mean to offend you (exactly...). | ||
| Signguyxb12 |
Newfie pass the screech | ||
| Keith |
Does anyone here besides me have a copy of the video by Keith Code, "A Twist of the Wrist"? There is a chapter on "Steering". In slow motion, you can very clearly see that rider counter steers the front tire first to the right to get the bike to lean left. Then the front tire very quickly turns to the left steering into the turn. If someone can tell me how, I can try to convert that short section of the video into digital format. Keith | ||
| P0p0k0pf |
I think Rocket is looking at the start of the turn differently than we are. ------- When you're in that turn the front wheel is already facing INTO the turn, therefore it is turning the same way as the turn. Describing the act of counter steering in the manner Mr Black is, he is simply describing the act of putting OPPOSING pressure on the bars, thus pressure OPPOSITE to the direction of the turn. -------- Your start of the turn, rocket, is a few seconds later than everyone else's start. The turn starts when the bike leans, not when the wheel turns left in a left turn or right in a right turn. The Countersteer occurs -before- the bike turns. It accomplishes the same thing as hanging off into a turn. It unbalances the bike, but without requiring you to slide your butt left or right. Countersteering allows you to keep the same position on the bike and still lean to turn. Countersteering is the catalyst that starts the turn. It isn't maintained through the turn. It doesn't feel like you are turning the opposite way. As a matter of fact, it doesn't feel like any control is applied through the bars. The moment you "apply pressure" all you feel is the bike rolling over to its side. I think this is why countersteering feels so intangible and is difficult to grasp. I'm not saying that leaning your body, sliding your butt, or hanging off is not needed. You can turn witout them, but you can't turn fast. | ||
| Rocketman |
Firstly, M1, my apologies. I had the track lines switched. It's a confusion caused by looking at what one's typed too many times, and trying to explain what one means at the same time. However, the actions I described for the rear wheel track are still pertinent. As for turning in, you can show me a Keith Code video a zillion times, even in slo-mo, but hey, anyone can make a bike turn in in that manner. I've never disputed that fact. What I do dispute is that some clever dick a few years ago came up with the theory that we turn momentarily to the outside of a corner to get turned in to a corner going the opposite way, but then set about making this gospel for every circumstance pertaining to all corners. Sorry, I don't buy it. I think what really happened is that the clever dick in question proved his point because obviously one can and does turn in like that, but I think not as you all assume, all of the time. Given counter steer was viewed, if ever, in the dark ages of motorcycling, say before the time Kawasaki brought us the GPZ900, as some weird black art form, the clever dick set about with his pen and paper, and maybe a movie camera too for all I know, and claimed life existed on Mars. Yep, aliens too can counter steer into a corner. Well, since those times, and clever dick's discovery through the eyes of an old camera, it seems everyone's bought the theory clever dick set out to prove. I'm not one of them. I believe the front wheel turns in the direction of the corner first and foremost in all, again for want of a better word, 'normal' circumstances. That's the kind of everyday riding me and thee do that I'm talking about. If one pushes hard for example, I can imagine a circumstance and a type of corner where the front wheel might be steered to the opposite direction of the corner to get the bike turned in. That I have no problem with, but I don't consider that to be anywhere near the 'norm'. Just to clarify, put 'norm' down as miles ridden into corners with the front wheel pointing IN rather than OUT, and I'll wager I'd be right with my theory against Code's or anyone else's. See, as far as I'm concerned, Code nor anyone else placed any importance on turning IN, because it is what is done anyway. What wasn't understood, and no proof existed back then, was the art of what you fella's describe as turning OUT to get turned in. That's why Code, and others, gave it some significance. Because it wasn't understood, never mind even realised, and it isn't the 'norm'. Now it's time to put the record straight so as one can determine both examples indeed do exist, but only one is a regular everyday campaigner in the corners. Trust me, I'm mad, like all mad professors usually are! I'm done. I know how to ride. I know what a bike does underneath me, and I trust you all do. I further hope I've not killed anyone in this thread. Be good!! Rocket | ||
| Xb9er |
Rocketman has posed the question of "which way do you turn the bars to initiate turn," as opposed to "which way do you turn the bars to initiate lean". What I take from this is that he is saying that a part of the turn happens before you initiate a lean. But most people that have responded in this post and many experts consider the start of the lean to be the same as the start of a turn. I think most everyone will agree that in order for a bike to turn (above 10 or so mph) it has to be leaning. Therefore I, and many others, prefer to think of the initiation of a lean as the exact same point that you initiate a turn. I think most people will also agree that to get a bike to lean you have to destabilize it and cause it to fall over to the inside of the turn. This destabilizing can be accomplished by pushing on the grip that is on the inside of the corner, pulling on the grip on the outside of the corner, or a combination of both. The action of getting the bike to fall over can actually be demonstrated even on a bike that is standing still and upright. I know when riding, I sometimes will set up a turn by drifting into position and essentially pointing the bike so it is following what I think will be the best "line." If this is what Rocketman means by "initiating a turn" then I would still disagree. I have observed what happens when riding last week and even the slightest change of direction (turn) first requires a tiny amount of lean. Anytime I try to turn my bike into the turn first, the bike fights back. It really wants to go the other direction. Rocketman's other point of contention is that once in a turn, it is physically impossible to push on the inside grip. This is absolutely ludicrous coming from such an intelligent person as Rocketman. I can be leaned over in the middle of a left hand turn and using my inside arm and hand, adjust my faceshield, wave, reposition my hydration hose, push the instrument cluster button to see what time it is, scratch my leg, unzip my jacket, adjust the rearview mirror, etc...The effort required to push on the inside grip to make adjustments to lean angle (and thus direction of travel) is no more than that required to push the odometer button. And yes I have done all those things while turning and yes I push on the inside bar when leaned over if I have to adjust direction of travel. Please note that all of the above assumes riding on the street at street riding speeds on a streetbike with the normal forks and steering head and no steering stabilizer/dampener. I have no track or racing experience but from other posts here, it seems the same principles apply to higher speed riding. Also I don't pretend to know the physics behind what happens, I have only provided my personal observations. Mike. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Signguy, This thread is making my head spin more than any screech ever has. |
