| Author | Message | ||
     R1DynaSquid |
Matt, I have a similar pic of myself at B-trax & have discussed this with Blake in the past. I agree with the entire concept of counter steering & obviously I use it as all of us do whenever we ride our bikes. But at parking lot type speeds I still dont agree that its utilized. I have competed in quite a few B-trax events & practice slow speed manuevers quite often & I have always turned the bars in the direction I wanted to go at these slow speeds. If there is some sort of animated video showing its impossible, then please post it. | ||
| Buellkowski |
I am not a motorcycling expert, but I've seen one on TV... I am of the opinion that counter steering does not initiate a turn, it facilitates it. I think the effect of a small counter steer can be negated by simply leaning on the bike in the opposite direction; bike leans one way, you lean the other, bike goes straight. Think of all the times we counter steer without intending (hard braking, quick launches w/ a death grip on the bars, wind gusts) but still keep the bike under control & straight. When I first learned to ride and took the MSC, the road test had a slalom section. I was on a school dirt bike and I simply counter steered through the cones at speed, keeping my head, shoulders and upper torso erect & forward. The bike moved around the cones but my head & shoulders went more or less through them. Others who went slower through the slalom "steered" their way around the cones. I counter steered, but would you say that I "turned?" What initiates a turn is intent. Where your mind goes your body follows. Stare at the road shoulder long enough while driving and what always happens? I've studied aikido (a spiritual version of jiu-jitsu) for years and have only started to learn the mysterious power of "intent" on moving your body and others' bodies. It's real. We "think" ourselves into places many times every day, walking, climbing stairs, leaping a hurdle, catching things. It's our mind physically preparing our body for an anticipatory event. On a bike we don't make our turns blindly; we process a huge amount of info about the anticipated turn before any input in the bars. That processing begins preparatory movements in our bodies, some imperceptible, that already affects the bike's lean angle. We turn our eyes and our heads (a small shift in weight), perhaps dip a shoulder slightly, press on a footpeg, etc. Only after we've processed all that info and made these tiny movements do we decide how & when to counter steer. Ride two-up sometime and ask your passenger to turn his/her head left & right very deliberately as you ride straight ahead. You will feel how that simple motion affects the bike's stability. Intent, lean, and counter steer all overlap each other in a turn, but it is intent (and its physical effects) that initiates it. | ||
| Buellkowski |
Dyna, I almost thought you meant that you had pics of yourself in a cow suit at Battletrax. Took a little while for your pic to download.  | ||
| M1combat |
LOL  . That's an excellent point Buellkowski... I practiced Jiu-Jitsu for three years so probably don't quite have as much of a grasp of that aspect of MA as you do, but I see your point. As a side note... Isn't Aikido the only art where it's techniques can be used to deflect and even catch Katana blades? | ||
| Buellkowski |
Isn't Aikido the only art where it's techniques can be used to deflect and even catch Katana blades? Deflect? Sort of. More like "redirect." Catch? No sir! If you find yourself in a position to "catch" a blade, it's already too late for you. It's far safer to be where the blade can't be and to get there as soon as your opponent has already committed to his action. | ||
| M1combat |
Good point . | ||
| Rocketman |
Ok, I've brushed upon this already so I'll go a little further. Trail, as I previously explained, is the measurement between drawing a vertical line directly downward from the wheel spindle to the ground, then drawing another line diagonal to the ground following the angle the forks are leaning. The distance between where the two lines hit the ground is trail. The diagonal line is know as the pivot centre line. When the PCL strikes the road in front of the tyres contact patch the wheel will follow the path taken by the PCL. Hence, if whilst sat with machine upright you could push the right side bar to the left the wheel will travel left, thus the forward thrust of the bike will follow. It will NOT turn right. Now let's look above and behind the front wheel. If we draw a line directly upwards from the spindle toward the top of the tyre and a diagonal line up and backwards at the angle the forks are leaned at, also to tyre height, the distance between both lines is castor angle. Castor angle is very important to the two wheeled rider because it gives the rider a feel for the straight ahead position, so helping you steer a straight path. When you turn the bars on a motorcycle you have to apply a torque to overcome the self centering or castoring action, which tends to keep the wheel pointing straight ahead. It seems to me that many of you confuse the feel of this torque with the feel of counter steering. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
I don't think so Sean. I think that specific torque is the bike steering to regain it's balance once leaned in. We are turning the bars counter to it to keep it leaned over. This is mid-corner. Upon corner entry we turn the bars slightly and briefly to the outside of the turn to initiate lean angle. You will agree that we can only affect lean angle by either leaning our bodies or using the contact patch yes? I hope you answer yes... It has been proven that leaning your body is not anywhere near as effective or precise as we need it to be. Lets move on to using the contact patch to affect lean then. One of Newton's laws is that an object in straight line motion tends to stay is straight line motion unless acted upon by an external force. This is the basis of centrifugal force, and the reason we need centripedal force. Our motorcycle is traveling in a straight line. We know that to turn left the bike needs to be leaning left. We know that we can only affect lean angle precisely and quickly enough by using the contact patch. We know that we only have one input device to modify the contact patch. That is the handlebars. We steer to the right just a TAD bit VERY briefly. Due to Newtons law (the third one I think?) everything above the tire patch wants to continue going straight. Because the tirepatch is headed to the right, which side of the tire patch will the top of the bike go? It will go to the left of the tirepatch. This initiates a lean to the left. We all know, when the bike is leaned to the left, it turns to the left. Because of this lean to the left, the caster effect, and the trail of the system... the bike starts to pull the bars towards the inside of the turn. We let this happen until we are at the proper balance point we would like to be. When we get there we stop the handle bars from turning further (as that would just cause the bike to right itself like they are prone to doing). The bars are attempting to turn to the left (into the corner), we stop them from turning to the left as far as they would like to go. We do this by applying a force that is equal and opposite to the direction and force that the bike is attempting to turn it's own bars. We are countersteering. This means that we countersteer to initiate a corner, and we countersteer to maintain lean. The only time we steer into a corner is when we want to stand the bike back up. The only time the HANDLEBARS steer outside of the lean is right at the initial banking of the bike. As the bike leans, it pulls the handlebars into the lean, but we maintain the same direction of pressure... Please at least make an effort to wrap your mind around that before you tell me that we (Lee Parks, Keith Code, Isaac Newton and I) are wrong. If you actually can't wrap you mind around the way you ride a motorcycle, please try to explain to me what you believe initiates lean. Don't try to tell me the physics behind how motorcycles handle. Just tell me what you do for input, and exactly how the bike responds. | ||
| Rocketman |
M1, you, Lee Parks, Keith Code, Isaac Newton and maybe the Pope too, are probably all right. I just beg to differ. The only proof both you or I need is in the riding. Oh look, that big orange orb in the sky is shinning. Rocket | ||
| Henrik |
Tony Foale have got fcuk all on me that's funny ... Silly, but funny. Henrik | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Hey Grumpy, Next LAP. Starting to think there are a lot of "Roundologists" here!!!! | ||
| Thunderbox |
Keith, I',m out on my bike and I push the left bar and the bike goes left, I call it countersteer. You are so right and I am so dyslecsic. No wonder I found it hard to do drill when I was in the forces. I still after 30 years as a mechanic have problems with left and right hand thread. Bye the way don't ever take directions from me if you are going somewhere. I have given a lot of direction and I should only do it on paper thats obvious. | ||
| Bomber |
Ing -- the second part of a chicane IS tough, sir, beause most of us (beginners) are concentrating so hard on the first part/corner -- most of the schools I've attended speak little about chicanes (or they covered it completely while I was in the Porat-Potty) -- I found miyself, I beleive, like you, setting up for the first part/corner of the chicane, trying to get the maximum drive out of it, which, of course, does not necessarily put you in right place ont eh track for the second part -- set up for the second part of the chicane, sacrificing speed in the first part when necessary (often it is) Like Kenny Roberts sez, slow in, fast out how to modify your bike's trajectory, I'll leave to the award winning legends in their own minds already posting on the board -- thank goodness none of the bikes in my motor-pool can read! | ||
| M1combat |
Alrighty then... Chicanes - There are plenty of situations where you will want to sacrifice a corner in order to get a better line out of another. Chicanes almost always require this. You want to end up on the inside of the exit of the first corner so the second corner will be less sharp (given a two corner chicane ). Take a look at Maggets, Beckets and Chapel at Silverstone... You actually take a fast line into the first, sacrifice the ENTIRE second corner and then try to get good drive out of the last. You sacrifice the first because if you don't, you'll get passed there, but it's difficult to pass in Beckets so sacrificing that is generally safe. When there's no one behind you, you would sacrifice the exit of Maggets so your average speed is higher through Beckets and you can still get a good line out of Chapel. If you run that line with someone behind, they will dive inside at the entrance to Beckets and sure, you'll have a "better line" but you can't use it because there's someone there. The most important corner on a racetrack will generally be the one that leads onto the longest straight (there are exceptions). This is because an extra one MPH exit speed will carry all the way down that straight. | ||
| Keith |
Dave- Thanks. If I do make it as far north as the Dakotas the beer and ride offer is still there. Keith | ||
| Thunderbox |
You are on bud. I'll buy the first several rounds too. | ||
| Ingemar |
You guys will be drunk before you actually get to ride and test your countersteering principles. Not that there's anything wrong with that though ..  | ||
| Rocketman |
M1, like your steering analogies, you've clearly copied your Silverstone knowledge straight out of a book. Please, for once, go try pushing on your inside bar. For two, please try turning into a corner with your bars facing the opposite direction to the corner. For three, tell us about a track YOU'VE actually ridden, otherwise it's hard to quantify just exactly what YOU claim to know, rather than someone else's knowledge you're simply repeating. Keith Code might be a genius. So might Tony Foale, but so might I. Rocket | ||
| Henrik |
Not sure I'd include Code in that short list  , but as opposed to most of us here, Tony Foale have been designing and experimenting with MC geometry and such since the mid-eighties, and have probably built more motorcycles to test and confirm his theories, than most of us have ever owned. While you may be a genius, Rocket, I still disagree with your assessment of what makes a bike turn. And yes I have been to track - just last weekend - and have posted pictures to prove it I manage to turn the bike quite nicely using what I believe is "counter steering", which to me means pushing on the inside bar to initiate a turn, such as explained, much better than I could, by Mr. Foale. Henrik | ||
| Blake |
"Please, for once, go try pushing on your inside bar." Now that's a new technique. But I thought we were talking about counter-steering?  Sean, You are correct in your description above as the countersteering part does not cause the bike to turn; it only gets the bike to lean whereby then the bike can be turned which requires steering into/towards the inside of the turn. Keith and I even debated the issue yesterday as related to turning a bike low speeds. We both demonstrated some interesting physical maneuvering routines to illustrate our points. Wish I had had a video camera. Of course... I was correct and Keith was obstinate. Then we had another beer and watched a video of Keith Code demonstrating the principle of countersteering. | ||
| M1combat |
I've never said that I corner with my bars pointed to the outside of the corner... I said I initiate lean angle by steering to the outside of a corner, then the self correcting geometry of the bike pulls them towards the inside of the corner but I maintain pressure on the inside bar so the bike doesn't completely correct itself and go straight. I'll take the comment about possible plagiarism as a compliment as it's not . I'll leave it to you to figure out how I've got the experience. If you've got any questions about any other of the common tracks feel free to ask . | ||
| Glitch |
Ya know what's funny? It seems to me the one's that can't agree are the one's with the most experience. We're all doin' it right, or we'd all be picking up our bikes at every turn. Just seems funny to me. Me, I couldn't explain how it all works. I think I counter steer. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
I agree 100% with Henrik. I have also done a fair number of track days & I definately push on the inside bar. Personally I think Sean just wants to debate about something & couldnt find anything better at the time. | ||
| M1combat |
"I think I counter steer." That's pure brilliance Glitch . I think I have a new sig for my e-mails. | ||
| Court |
>>>Personally I think Sean just wants to debate about something & couldnt find anything better at the time. As we say in construction...... "Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling a pig in mud......after a while, you figure out the pig is enjoying it" | ||
| Glitch |
That's pure brilliance... Could you give my wife a call  | ||
| Blake |
No, but I'll wrestle in mud with her.  | ||
| Rocketman |
Sean, You are correct in your description above as the countersteering part does not cause the bike to turn; it only gets the bike to lean whereby then the bike can be turned which requires steering into/towards the inside of the turn. And so it follows that leaning the bike comes AFTER you initiate the turn. That's the crux of my disagreement. I will also state here and now and as I've said previously, I cannot push the inside bar on my 916 and I don't believe for a moment anyone else could. Not Rossi, Code, Dyna or even God. It may well be possible on other machines, which is why I asked for your input, but I believe this is a misconception based on what we are told we are doing when it is written down as an explanation. I firmly believe the best, and therefore correct action, is to pull on the outside bar. It goes without saying, the outside bar offers more leverage, therefore more control, and is always accessible to your outside arm positioning. Dyna, thanks for your input. Funny enough, in the pub this evening, I and a mate discussed (again)in detail several matters of this topic. Suffice to say, neither of us firmly established a conclusive effort to put down here on BadWeB. One way or another though, I will post my own findings on the matter, be they support my beliefs or not, as soon as I can. Anyway Dyna, I hope the fact that I can mull over this thread in the pub is proof enough for you to my commitment over the thread. Court, actually I was the one that posted some blinding information on how we steer a motorcycle. Everyone else is arguing with me  After all, I was only trying to be helpful - sort of, you know. Lighten up please. This is a good debate. Stick around. You might just see me make a fcuking idiot of myself once again. At least I do it in style is what I tell myself. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I've never said that I corner with my bars pointed to the outside of the corner... I said I initiate lean angle by steering to the outside of a corner, And so it goes that your bars are facing the outside of the corner then! I mean how can you steer to the outside of the corner to initiate lean angle if your bars are not pointed to the outside of the corner? I conclude M1, you practice on some weird tracks Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
LOL... Maybe I do . They are only pointed to the outside for the initial direction. At some point, the corrective geometry of the motorcycle pulls them back to where they are pointed to the inside. The effort exerted at the bar is counter to the direction that the bars want to turn by themselves. I agree that through the lion's share of the corner, they are indeed pointed to the inside, but to initiate lean (which is what we need to corner) they are indeed pointed to the outside. If we didn't countersteer, they would pull far enough to the inside of the corner that the bike would stand itself up and go mostly straight... I've said many times that it's only the initial direction that is to the outside and just as many times (although I haven't counted) that countersteer only refers to the direction of force applied to the bars and not the actual direction of the bars. I sat on a 998 this weekend and I'm pretty sure I could push the inside bar. Maybe that's a completely different animal than a 916, but it looks a lot alike . |
