| Author | Message | ||
     Jlnance |
I keep seeing the word 'line' used in discussions about cornering. From what I gather, lines are important, but I don't know what they are. Would anyone like to enlighten me? Thanks, Jim | ||
| Aesquire |
An ideal path through a corner has a vehicle moving from the outside (before the turn), to the inside ( in the middle more or less of the turn ), and back to the outside. The idea is to minimize the distance, and keep the demand for traction on the tires within their capability. Racers, having a track with no oncoming traffic, can use the whole road. In the real world, you do NOT want to cross the center line, to avoid a head on collision. You also need to be aware that your head is several feet inside the path taken by your tires. If you are in a left curve, with your tires inches from the dotted line, your face is right in the oncoming SUV fender's path. ( so keeping your skull in your own lane is a good rule ) Check out the "quick board-book suggestions" thread for reading. | ||
| Sandblast |
The path you take around a corner is your "line"- i.e. the "inside line" would be the path through the inside of the corner. I actually picture lines drawn on the ground to follow. (not when I'm actually riding the corner, but when I'm thinking about it). Look at a race track surface and you will actually see the lines the riders take because they leave rubber on the ground, usually at the exits. | ||
| Cyclonemick |
While cornering you should pick the smoothest and most fluent passage through a twistie which is in return creating a line in which your bike travels. It's all about entry and exit points. Riding experience will help you learn better or faster way to enter or exit a corner. | ||
| Spiderman |
Keith Code, Twist of the Wrist. Learn it! Live it! LOVE IT! | ||
| M1combat |
Another good one although centered around driving a car is "Professional Race Driving Techniques". There's nothing theoretical in that one (like positive throttle braking, done near the apex for rotation) but it will lay out the basics very well. It's about 150 pages and laid out very well. Some points - The idea isn't always to minimize distance... Sometimes you will need to go a little further distance to maximize exit speed. Say, for instance, before a long straight. Sometimes you want to sacrifice one corner for better exit speed coming out of the next. Picture this... We have a 180 degree corner. You approach the corner from the outside. At some point you need to turn... When you initiate the turn, that is called turn in. To maximize speed, you want to make the largest radius turn possible. The Apex of the corner is the point at which you are the closest to the inside edge of the track. You would apex the corner exactly mid way through the corner if your concern was maximizing average speed through the corner. There is a lot to be argued about this next point  , but suffice to say you would get back on the throttle pretty close to the apex. After you pass the apex, you need to move to the outside to continue with the idea of a large radius corner. If I explained this properly, you should have a picture with three lines on it. The outside edge of the corner, the inside edge and "the line". The line will touch the outside edge twice and the inside once in the center. This is all modified very much when you are trying to put more than one corner "together". There aren't actually any "straights" on a racetrack. Race-craft is an Art, which is different from going fast. Jacky Iyx once said (and I loosely quote) - "Driving a car is like painting. The track is my canvas, and the car my brush." Another good read is "The Pace". Do a google search on that one. | ||
| Loki |
Jim, How about something in laymans terms? In this case a "line" is your desired path from point A(where you are at) to point B(where you wish to be). Every corner has its optimum(desired) path. A lot of things(variables) go into influencing just what will be the path(your line). A good read on this is Nick Ienatsch's book Sport Riding Techniques. Kieth Code's books are excellent also. I just find that Nick's book is easier to digest and not sleep inducing. | ||
| Aydenxb9 |
Another good book is'Total Control High Performance Street Riding Techniques' by Lee Parks, from Motorbooks International. If you want to witness a vivid demonstration of "the line" at work, watch a NASCAR qualifying show. You'll see that the cars run out by the wall on the straights and dive for the apex(the center of the corner)running at the inside edge of the racing surface, then back out to the wall exiting the corner on to the next straight. | ||
| Lovematt |
I loved that Total Control book...I read that and I have been riding for many years and I still got a lot out of it...the single most helpful thing I got out of it was pushing with the inside hand...in other words on the side of the bike that you are leaning towards, push __SLIGHTLY__ on that side of the handlebars AWAY from you. When I say slightly I mean a very very light push...like enough to start pushing a basketball. From there you can push harder based on how you feel in a turn. I swear it really helps "make the turn" and forces you to trust your traction. However this should be in balance with the rest of your riding...don't only hold onto the inside handlebar and push....one thing doesn't do the trick by itself. Also...something to keep in mind when near the center lane...your traction will change DRASTICALLY once your tires hit that paint so be careful out there!!!! I have seen guys just slide out on a lowside because they caught a little of that paint and these were decent riders too... | ||
| Lake_bueller |
pushing with the inside hand...in other words on the side of the bike that you are leaning towards, push __SLIGHTLY__ on that side of the handlebars AWAY from you In other words...counter steer. I've always read about counter steering (and even knew what it was and why it works) but it never REALLY clicked until I finished building my S1W. The higher pegs and lower (race) bars made for a completely different feel on the road, compared to my S3T. I was running wide TOO OFTEN in slow speed corners. The need to give the bars a little more push was something that I needed to consciously rememeber going into corners. Ironically, I'm also faster in the corners on my S3T now because I;m more comfortable with the counter steering. Sorry....I think that was off the topic. | ||
| Aesquire |
I knew if I started with dire death warnings, the fast guys would pipe up. Counter steering is absolutely vital to understand. I run into riders that insist they "lean the bike" with body english. I'm amazed they are alive. The purpose of "the line" and clipping the apex, is to perform your moves within the traction limits of the tires. ( affected by suspension & hanging off too ) Watching a race shows the desired path pretty good. | ||
| Lovematt |
Counter Steer clicked for me as soon as I did it...immediately the bike just simply turned. I knew this technique as an evasive manuever but don't know why I didn't think it would apply while turning too...physics is physics! | ||
| Jlnance |
Thanks you all. I knew this was the right place to ask  . When I heard the word line, I was assuming a straight line. Things make more sense now. lovematt & lake_bueller - I go out and practice counter steering a lot. Not so much to get better with turns, but to get better with swerves. But of course it makes my turns better as well. aesquire - LOL, I was at 'Riding the Ridge' last week enjoying some long sweeping turns on 321 comming back into NC from TN. I looked down at one point and noticed that while my tires were in my lane, my head was not. That got my attention :-) | ||
| Lovematt |
So you are saying you lost your head?!?!?!! sometimes that can be a good thing but not on a left hand turn on a motorcycle.... | ||
| Blublak |
Aesquire.. I Lean The Bike With My Body.. and I'm still alive.. uh.. Ok, there's more to it than that. A lot of times, I ride an 'inside line' (meaning my path through a curve, turn etc. tends to be closer to the inner boundary of the turn) And I have a tendency to body steer quite a lot.. Now, to body steer correctly, you have to understand what you are doing and why. First off, basic physics says you can't turn a motorcycle at speed without initiating a lean; the most effective way to accomplish this is to get the bike to 'fall over'. The best way to do this is with controlled input to the entire machine. Instead of smaller, incremental 'nudges' given only to the handlebar. SO, to body steer correctly, you have to make it all happen at once. By shifting my body, I initiate the counter steer without having to 'muscle' my bike over into the turn. If you move your body correctly, you will automatically start the counter steer. This can allow you to keep your arms relaxed during the turn and not transmit stress into the steering head. Stress on transmitted through your handle bars can effect your 'line' and force you to either correct mid turn or 'force' the bike deeper into the turn. Try it.. Press down on the inside peg shift your weight (move your upper body in the direction of the turn) with your arms slightly bent and relaxed you will automatically push against the inside bar. I remember it seeming almost counter intuitive, but it works. With practice you can become very smooth through turns, actually going in slow to go fast out. Hence the tight line and the ability to avoid little things like cages/trucks/etc. that have crossed the divider into your side of the road. (As already stated above, keeping your body parts as far away from oncoming traffic as possible) Ok, I hope that all made sense.. But it's the best I could do on the spur of the moment. Later, | ||
| Midknyte |
Something else that no one has brought up, per lee Parks' Total Control, initiating your turn later and from the outside allows more opportunity for course correction through the turn. | ||
| Rocketman |
Sorry and no offense but I gotta jump in here due to the bullshit. Counter steering isn't a product of something you do on the open road unless you're in too deep too hard, whether intentional or otherwise. Counter steering is what's happening naturally. Many think 'they' are counter steering because they feel the counter steer if they push the bar on the opposite side to the corner. The machine was already counter steering, you just made it more so and you felt it BUT it was a totally unnecessary input, unless you were in too deep or too hard. On a race track it might be different, if you can 'back the bike in', but honestly do you know anyone that can? Incidentally and just to clarify, these laws of physics apply differently if you're off road riding at speed on a loose surface, but that's another subject. Likewise, leaning off the bike and weighting the inside foot peg is a bullshit theory. Sure, weighting the foot peg works, and is an excellent piece of skilled riding if you do it when right to do so but that is never going to be when leaning off the machine. The whole exercise of leaning off the side of the machine is one that should be done with as little interuption to the bikes stability as possible. You should be off the side of the bike and in position for the corner not needing to weight the foot peg at all. Imagine a series of left right, right left flicks where you can lean off the machine. From one side of the bike to the other your movements should be light and nimble and your arse probably off the seat in all but a glide and your feet should never feel heavy. Perform this action like a ballerina and your riding will improve, as will your corner speed. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
I enter corners hanging off and I initiate turn in by steering to the outside of the turn. This is counter steering. Making a mid corner adjustment is only changing the magnitude of the counter steering input. The definition of counter steering is not based on the actual angle of the bars relative to the frame. It is quantified by pressure exerted into the bars by your hands. If there is more pressure in a forward direction on the inside bar, you are counter steering. | ||
| Rocketman |
I enter corners hanging off and I initiate turn in by steering to the outside of the turn. In your analogy, that would be you counter steering, but you didn't make the bike counter steer, you simply added more. Suggest you try the same exercise without you inputing counter steer and you'll corner smoother and faster. Incidentally, you steer to the outside of the corner for real? Sure you do, but we all do kinda without knowing it, but you're describing much more it seems. Racers 'back into the corner'. A technique I believe perfected by King Kenny Roberts in the late seventies, and it takes a finite degree of over steer to make that happen. When the bike is leaning the racer is simply controlling the amount of counter steer to suit his desired effect, which is going in deeper turning later and hole shotting out of the turn, or he is vying for position within the corner. Never would you set-up a clear corner before entry with the intention of you counter steering beyond the norm, and as delivered by the laws of physics, the machine through it, excepting a little correction perhaps. In fact, if you did, you're cornering wrong. The definition of counter steering is not based on the actual angle of the bars relative to the frame. It is quantified by pressure exerted into the bars by your hands. If there is more pressure in a forward direction on the inside bar, you are counter steering. You're a little confused. Counter steering has nothing to do with your hands other than you can control it to a degree, as your comment states. However, pushing the inside bar is arse about face. The technique is exploited by pulling on the outside bar. If you let go of the bars and steer with your arse, like doing non handers on a bicycle (same applies to motorcycles), the bicycle will turn by counter steering and counter steering only. If it turns by leaning into the turn you're about to fall off so the only save you can make is by grabbing the bars, and get this, by counter steering. Counter steering is not quantified by pressure exerted into the bars by your hands, though that action will induce MORE counter steer if you apply it in the manner you describe. Be careful too. Apply too much pulling \ pushing pressure and you could make the machine sit-up in the corner, which is what's going on in the King Kenny analogy above. The rear suspension unloads and the rear wheel spins up. Applying more throttle at the correct moment is an attempt to get the machine to bog back down, gain traction and hole shot the exit. Otherwise you could end up losing the rear and it coming around on you, which will be tough to catch. Remember this, counter steering is always present. Simple laws of physics. Where there's an equal there's an opposite. The track a two wheeled front steered machine makes when cornering is always going to be a counter steered track. You are mealy an operator inputing more or less of it. Try to separate in your head the term 'counter steering' as two entities. Rider input at the top end, and steering input at the bottom end, then ask yourself which takes precedence and when? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, the equal and opposite scenario is always present, never mind just when cornering. Does one ever ride a motorcycle in a PERFECT straight line? Well if you could can I hear you say counter steer, even when the bike is perfectly upright and traveling in a perfect straight line? Count on it, even with your hands removed from the bars! Rocket | ||
| Aydenxb9 |
Look, what all of you are saying is correct. Further, you can use any and all of these methods to turn a motorcycle. The key is having the experience to make the correct decisions of what tools to use in a given situation without having to think about it. I use all of the methods we've talked about together and separately, there's no one correct way. I practice continually using each method. One time I'll go out and do nothing but deliberate counter-steering, maybe the next time just body position, or loading the pegs(which is actually a body position practice). I do it in a safe manner, lightly used back roads I know well, or the parking lot that's used for the MSF classes at the local community college. The big thing I've learned about Buells, at least my Buell, is the importance of late entry. It's a good idea anyway as going in late from the outside of the corner gives you a better line of sight through the corner. Speaking of sight, another thing I practice is looking as far ahead as I can. Getting your head up and your eyes focused ahead helps reduce the sensation of speed which helps you make better decisions. | ||
| Xb9er |
I just jumped in here and skimmed through this but Rocketman accurately explained how a person steers a motorcycle. A lot of people get the wrong idea because, as I found in my MSF basic rider class, they don't actually teach the concept. In fact I don't think the term counter-steer was even mentioned by either of my instructors. It's just "push right to turn right -- push left to turn left." This reminds me of what I believe to be a true story that was told to me by a manager at my dealership: Here in OH, one can purchase a bike without a motorcycle endorsement as long as they do not ride the bike off the lot. So this guy buys a Harley and trailers it home. A few days later he calls to schedule a service appointment. They ask him what the problem is. He says "Well, the bike runs fine when I go slow, but when I get up to 35 or 40 mph the handlebars won't turn anymore." It wouldn't surprise me if this story is told by staff at most moto dealerships. The word counter-steering itself unfortunately leads to quite a bit of misunderstanding. It's natural to think of it as a verb, the action of a rider steering a bike. Actually it's a noun referring to the physics of a turning motorcycle (more accurately, as Rocket said, a moving motorcycle). It is unfortunate that they chose terminology that includes the word steering. Here's how I look at it: At low speed (think Trials bike or maneuvering around between crowded bikes at a bike night) if you have to turn the bars to change the direction of the bike's motion you are steering the bike but the bike isn't in a counter-steer. Once you are at a speed where the bike has to be turned by leaning it, the bike is then in a counter-steer. A rider initiates a counter-steer in a bike by a push/pull on the bars then controls the turn with throttle, trail brake, lean, hanging off, or whatever. All that taken together is the action of "steering" the bike. I am definitely not an authority on motorcycle dynamics and I don't doubt there are some flaws in what I have typed. What I explained above is basically how I keep this stuff straight in my own pea brain. Mike. Body Steering Isn't. (Message edited by xb9er on October 03, 2004) | ||
| Xb9er |
Back to the topic of the "line" No two lines through any given corner can be exactly the same. Would you agree? Mike. | ||
| Loki |
What a can of worms we have here. "Lazily steering a bike into a turn requires so little effort that few riders recognize the physical process involved, and that is why you will get so many different answers to the question of steering." -Nick Ienatsch | ||
| M1combat |
There you go Loki... What does Nick say about initiating a turn? He says what I said. So do Lee parks and Keith Code. I understand your point about CS being a property of physics. Of course, you get mid corner (preferably in a parking lot in case you aren't hanging right and you get a line change) and let off the handlebars the bike will counter steer for you (assuming you have cruise control...). The same term works as a verb though... When I actively push on the inside bar in an effort to force the bike to jerk itself out from under me I am "counter steering". When I'm headed around a double apex corner that exits to a long straight I will "counter steer" a bit more when I need to make the kink in between the two apexes to get a good straight line coming out. Of course, this is certainly all modified by being on the actual edge. At that point, you can only make line changes well with the throttle. Obviously bikes counter steer, but people do too . You have counter steer provided by the bike, you also are counter steering. It's like a synonym. Do you really think that you can make a bike move as fast with no steering input to the bars? I thought not, so there you have it. You counter steer the bike. The term counter steer was probably coined because of it's opposite nature compared to a car. | ||
| Loki |
They speak from different schools of thought, but speak of the same ideas. "A few years back someone coined the term "countersteering" to describe the actions involved in turning a moving two-wheeled vehicle:..." "...:to turn left push left, to turn right, push right." The idea of weighting the pegs does apply to the street. It is the act of riding with the balls of your feet on the pegs. Which will allow you to shift your body weight without upsetting the bike. One does not have to lean excessively off the side of a bike. But shifting your weight on the bike to the turn side will affect your turn. This is a skill that must be learned and honed over and over. It does not take much movement to accomplish this. Sure the look of a rider leaned well off the bike is kinda cool looking. It makes you look fast, not make you fast. On the street it has no real function. On the track though. It goes back to lowering the CG of the mass of the rider and bike. Which then lowers the required lean angle of the bike thru a given corner at a given speed. Which allows the tire to have a larger contact patch. Which allows the use of more power and the ability to transfer that power to the ground. The best thing one can do. Follow a good rider and watch and learn. That rider probably cannot tell you everything that they initiated. It is something so ingrained(sp?) into them that it all feels natural. Blake gave me some good feedback after following me through some very good tight turns. Just like following him I could see how good he is. The compliment had to do with how smoothly I could shift my weight around without upsetting the bike. | ||
| Xb9er |
Counter-steer(ing) is just there; it's what is going on in a moving motorcycle. When a rider performs some action or re-action to change the direction of travel of the bike, the rider is turning the bike or steering it, not counter-steering it. Look at it this way, one rider takes a left-hand 90 degree turn following a nice smooth line and states at the end, "I made it through that turn because I applied counter-steering to the bike by pushing forward on the left grip." Now his buddy goes through the exact same turn and completes it equally as well and says at the end, "I used my body and shifted it to get the bike to lean over." Both explanations are inaccurate or insufficient. They are two interpretations of exactly the same thing. All it takes to get a bike to turn is a feather touch just to INITIATE a lean. The process of initiating the lean involves upsetting the balance point by turning the front tire slightly opposite the desired travel direction causing it to want to fall over in the desired direction. You can see this by watching the steering head of a bike while turning the front wheel one way or the other. In the two scenarios above, whether they realize it or not, both riders pushed or pulled or did both to the bars to make the front tire point one way to cause the bike to lean in the opposite way. This is what is happening with the motorcycle that allows us to turn it and what people who coined the term counter-steering were referring to. They were NOT teaching or explaining a brand new way to turn a bike. Counter-steering is always occurring in any bike that is in motion! Another one I just thought of is most of us have seen where a racer gets a wobble violent enough to throw them completely off the bike, then the bike wobbles some more but eventually it stands upright and keeps going in a line until it hits something or it has lost power so it slows down then falls over. This happens as a direct result of the counter-steering properties of a two-wheeled vehicle in motion. The riderless bike lost the mechanical input of the rider but counter-steering did not automagically end. The lack of rider input to turn or steer it made it naturally want to return to a straight path as a result of counter-steering forces. Mike. | ||
| Rocketman |
I like Ienatsch's quote. It perfectly describes what we don't understand  "Lazily steering a bike into a turn requires so little effort that few riders recognize the physical process involved, and that is why you will get so many different answers to the question of steering." Poetry! What we are trying to explain here is how we the rider understand COUNTER STEER, which incidentally is of major importance to the line. A simpler way, imagine one of your favourite rides (no not her), or take any race you've seen and focus on one bike, then remove the rider so only the moving machine remains and observe what the machine is doing. It is steering and counter steering simply by virtue of the fact it has to lean to be able to corner. What the counter steer is constantly doing, that is the counter steer you can't necessarily feel, is keeping the bike upright. Whilst the bike is leant over in the corner the downside of the bike is constantly being turned into the floor. If it remained steered that way the bike would eventually make its way to the floor. To stop that happening requires an opposite force. That force is COUNTER STEER. It's called counter steer because it is the action of the steering turning in the opposite direction to the steered direction. You as a rider can input more or less of one force or the other beyond those the laws of physics provide. How you choose to do so will affect how the machine leans and steers, so yes YOU can counter steer but remember, as the machine is leant over and turning the laws of physics have already determined the optimum steer \ counter steer for the machines ideal balance. If you want to change that balance, which is what we as riders do constantly, it helps to understand how too little input can sometimes serve best, and just as equally how too much can serve best too. Inputting counter steer to corner for the sake of counter steering is simply over working you and your machine. One would be best served trying to feel the natural counter steer and trying to relax it rather than highlight it. Not only will doing so help you relax your grip on the bars but it will also make your riding smoother. Loki, there are two major problems with your analogies. You can't weight the pegs WITHOUT upsetting the bikes handling no matter why or where you apply the practice. The whole purpose of weighting the pegs is meant to upset the handling of the bike, all be it in a controlled manner - for the desired effect, but it has little or nothing at all to do with shifting ones body weight. I always ride with the balls of my feet on the pegs. For a kick off, that's the only way it should be done if you're hurrying. You are serving the same purpose as a tip-toeing ballerina across a dance floor. In no way should your body movement across the bike involve weighting the foot pegs. To suggest otherwise is incorrect and defeats the purpose of using the balls of your feet for smooth and perfect body shifting thus serving to avoid upsetting the bikes handling. Weighting the foot pegs serves an entirely different aspect of cornering skill and I can't think of a single set of circumstances where you'd be able to weight the inside foot peg if you were shifting your body weight across the bike in the 'hanging off' manner. In fact, I bet it can't be physically done. Sure you could apply pressure to the inside foot peg before you start to move your body, and once you'd got leaned over, but anytime in between you'd have to weight your outside foot peg to induce counter steer. That's a lot of physical energy to get around a corner. The practice of 'hanging off' the bike is not only the fastest way to corner but it is also the only way to corner if you are riding the twisties fast. In fact, you probably won't make the corner at all unless you hang off. There's an important aspect to 'hanging off' that you missed in your above analogy. That of steering. By hanging off the bike in a corner the lowering of the C of G acts in the same way as one of those 'Weeble' toys. If the C of G is lower the leaning effects upon the cornering motorcycle will make it turn much more efficiently. Think of it like this. Instead of hanging off, take your favourite corner as many times as you like without hanging off until you've got it down perfect, then go try it with a bag of cement sat on your head. If you're not completely satisfied with this experiment, then do it again, but this time put the bag of cement under the motor. You see what I'm getting at? Hanging off works wherever you apply it, though it might not always seem or indeed be necessary, but when it is you can't do without it. Rocket | ||
| Loki |
Rocketman, I agree Nick has written some poetry into the book. Lets agree to disagree about the peg weighting. We are both swatting the same fly with the hanging off. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Keith Code and the No BS bike. Good stuff. |
